Boring the TB

[shiroitenshi]

j101,

for the usage of ITB, u must have a standalone ECU rite? so, wat do u have in hand or wat do u plan to use?

The reason ITB cannot run on the stock ECU is because the stock ECU reads manifold pressure to apply fuel (Also calculate fuelling due to intake air temp and O2)

ITBs don't have a plenum, so there's NO manifold pressure. As such, fuelling is based on throttle position sensor, much like carbureted systems, except this one is electronic based.

Economical FC? Can throw out the window-lah!

 

[sasuke]

I don want to debate, I just want to know the truth also. The most accurate is the inner potion, I don have a chance to measure it myself. May be this saturday. Thanks.

 

[hattech-v]

i got one ek9 TB laying in my office. will measure its ID using caliper later n post the pic here... hehe...

 

[hattech-v]

aisey... done the measurement using my cap ayam caliper... found its 60mm but unfortunately cannot get the pics clearly.. oso coz of the cap ayam digi cam... sigh...

 

[shiroitenshi]

Actually I wonder about the functionality of the bigger TB. Assuming it has better flow, why not just install the max size possible? (Bigger = better mentality..LOL)

Doesn't changing the TB size affect the manifold pressure?

Why does those 1-2mm increments matter so much? Does it offer that much better flow?

AFAIK, from what I know, increments in 1-2mm doesn't really affect flow much (something I picked up when overclocking my pc and dealing with all those fans and fan shrouds, also a bit from physics class when I was in school
Engine wise, I'm clueless and need enlightenment... indulge me, please?

 

[J101]

hello shirotenshi
yeah, definitely it cannot run with "stock" ecu. even if you were to fix some high profile camshafts, "stock" ecu cannot accomodate all the mappings.

if you notice like JsRacing, Esprit and Techno Spirit they use rechipped ECU with at least a fuel controller(apexi or OER) and nowadays they chose emanage to help calibrate better results.

speaking of FC, since ITBs makes power so much, i dont think u wanna turn back and go slower than that. cant have both worlds.

The reason ITB cannot run on the stock ECU is because the stock ECU reads manifold pressure to apply fuel (Also calculate fuelling due to intake air temp and O2)

ITBs don't have a plenum, so there's NO manifold pressure. As such, fuelling is based on throttle position sensor, much like carbureted systems, except this one is electronic based.

Economical FC? Can throw out the window-lah!

 

[J101]

Shirotenshi,
somehow or rather i knew this sizing matter would definitely pop in one of the replies. haha. Speaking of sizing, those tiny milimetres do make a difference. I think last time i did mention that small mods do help in future mods, which is true. the best way to find out if your TB is too small for your intake manifold is to determine what is the intake manifold absolute pressure (map) sensor is reading (inside the intake manifold) when you are at full throttle or wide open throttle (wot) while the car is accelerating using a EMS datalogger. the map should be equal to, or close to, atmospheric pressure. if it isnt or almost there the (map) drop at WOT, then your TB is still too small. no no, dont use a vacuum meter.

the rest like the length and diametre of the intake manifold which actually can be tuned for optimum performance in both low and high rpms. probably v8_nutter can tell you more about the intake part koz he has experiences in building intakes and did trial and errors formulating a good one. The flow rate between TBs and intake manifold is very important.

Actually I wonder about the functionality of the bigger TB. Assuming it has better flow, why not just install the max size possible? (Bigger = better mentality..LOL)

Doesn't changing the TB size affect the manifold pressure?

Why does those 1-2mm increments matter so much? Does it offer that much better flow?

AFAIK, from what I know, increments in 1-2mm doesn't really affect flow much (something I picked up when overclocking my pc and dealing with all those fans and fan shrouds, also a bit from physics class when I was in school
Engine wise, I'm clueless and need enlightenment... indulge me, please?

 

[V8_nutter]

The reason ITB cannot run on the stock ECU is because the stock ECU reads manifold pressure to apply fuel (Also calculate fuelling due to intake air temp and O2)

ITBs don't have a plenum, so there's NO manifold pressure. As such, fuelling is based on throttle position sensor, much like carbureted systems, except this one is electronic based.

Economical FC? Can throw out the window-lah!

Shiroitenshi,,

Let me guide you a bit, ITB can use stock ecu with "map" as long as we know how to get the correct reading. To get the correct reading, there is a way to do this (which i wont tell you / trade secret). ITB fabrication is the "key" for these thing to happen.

No offence but dont rely too much on "performance books" tips. They only tell you the basic only,,,the "key" setup they will keep up to themself. The reason ppl telling that ITB is for standalone management (haltech, motec), is for the sake of marketing & sales. But the truth is,,,std ECU with piggyback (e-manage, safac, hondata) is sufficient enough.

 

[sasuke]

aisey... done the measurement using my cap ayam caliper... found its 60mm but unfortunately cannot get the pics clearly.. oso coz of the cap ayam digi cam... sigh...

Oh... ur b16b TB lying on ur office... that means...

In that case, B16A TB should be 1.5-2mm smaller than B16B rite?

 

[chris2000]

hi guys,

let me chip in my views..

As far as i remember, B16A and B16B throttle are 60mm and ITR are 62mm.

On my B18C with cams, i tried 60mm EG then upgrade to ITR 62mm and you will feel the difference especially in top end. The I changed to Spoon throttle and again there was difference! Last year MME regulation changed and only allow 60mm throttle and stock air box. So we change open pod and Spoon throttle to std air box and std B16B 60mm throttle and we loss 1.5 seconds a lap in SIC!!

Then last year A1 support race, i borrowed and tried a big straight through 70mm throttle with 70mm butterfly and i can tell you it definitely cannot match with B16A, B16B and B18C engine. Idling was very bad, low to mid range was lumpy and top end was strong but not responsive. But the guy i borrowed the 70mm throttle had a B20B bottom end and its effect is much better than my B18c.

So my experience tells me, bigger is definitely better but TOO big screws everthing else up just like my camshaft testing!

I feel it is the whole package, the matching of the right components for the right usage.

Just my 2 cents... :)

 

[chris2000]

To further add in, if anyone wants a bigger throttle body for their B Series and K20A to able to be used for both street and track, PM me as i will be having some (very limited units only) next week.

From J's Racing Japan, based on the stock ITR units, the butterfly is changed to 65mm and tapered opening of 70mm.

 

[hattech-v]

aiyoo... sound interesting.. chris, pm me how much... hehe
i'll ask simon to finance it for me...

 

[xxxx]

shiro,

bigger is not always better. everything depends on the components tat makes ur engine combination.

v8 nutter,
do u have a workshop?

if i give u a ITB with emanage, can u kawtim the settings for me? in the car of course....

performance books does help, providing a skin knowledge for those who are not familiar with engineering theory n stuffs....

 

[V8_nutter]

My mechanics have a workshop, i fabricate 4 throttle. PM me for enquiries, what engine are you using now ?

 

[xxxx]

fabricate them? wow....
using b16a. pls pm me the price of customizing one n also the cost of tuning it. thanks.

 

[V8_nutter]

PM sent.

 

[chris2000]

V8 nutter,

Wow.. never knew there is anyone who can fabricate and tune ITB in Malaysia. Let me check MSS regulation can change or not.. hehe..

 

[NA^tuner]

Shiroitenshi,,

Let me guide you a bit, ITB can use stock ecu with "map" as long as we know how to get the correct reading. To get the correct reading, there is a way to do this (which i wont tell you / trade secret). ITB fabrication is the "key" for these thing to happen.

No offence but dont rely too much on "performance books" tips. They only tell you the basic only,,,the "key" setup they will keep up to themself. The reason ppl telling that ITB is for standalone management (haltech, motec), is for the sake of marketing & sales. But the truth is,,,std ECU with piggyback (e-manage, safac, hondata) is sufficient enough.

V8_nutter,
Everywhere also can c u post..but all ur posting will tell ppl the front part n the end part u will always keep it as a secret...i really respect u coz u know how to keep secret n got a lot of secret...thumbs up for u

 

[V8_nutter]

Something have to keep "closed" so that it will remain closed. I think you already know what i mean.

 

[shiroitenshi]

Shiroitenshi,,

Let me guide you a bit, ITB can use stock ecu with "map" as long as we know how to get the correct reading. To get the correct reading, there is a way to do this (which i wont tell you / trade secret). ITB fabrication is the "key" for these thing to happen.

No offence but dont rely too much on "performance books" tips. They only tell you the basic only,,,the "key" setup they will keep up to themself. The reason ppl telling that ITB is for standalone management (haltech, motec), is for the sake of marketing & sales. But the truth is,,,std ECU with piggyback (e-manage, safac, hondata) is sufficient enough.

Performance books? Aiyah! The money buying those books can futher my mod agenda.. you think i buy ah? ROFL!. No, most of my knowledge is from workshop people/friends I talk to, and also some that mod on their own.

Interesting, I guess most piggybacks do have TPS input and get from there. Seriously, I simply can't figure out how you can base mapping on MAP with ITBs, since there is no plenum.. Come to think of it, I've never asked what happened with the map sensor... I should find out!

You always quote the trade secret thing, and I respect you wanting to keep it a secret, but ultimately you will limit your own exposure/improvement by doing so... you may be the top fabricator for ITBs now, but I'm not taking bets to see how long that lasts.

Hondata? I'm wanting to use their engine management, but dunno any contacts that use them, or know where to get them.. I've heard JC (formerly Amoil?) has them, but I don't know anyone from there personally, so a bit difficult to deal with themlah. Only know a former worker there.. so no help also.