Boring the TB

[V8_nutter]

Perhaps 1 day when you thinking of fitting ITB on your engine,,,you will understand how it really works. If you happen to have a fren who's using 1,,,do check thier vacuum hose,,where did it connected,,,then you get the idea.

FYI,,,, throttle body size & length do make a difference,,,eventhough it's been bore 2mm only. There is a reason why 2mm is better than 4mm vise-versa. Sometimes we have to learn it the hard way,,,or through experience,,,since im a fabricator, for a single throttle body,,,ive tried staged sizing. Example,,from 4mm bore to 6mm,,then change 8mm butterfly for the sake of power. 1 day you will understand this as well.

 

[V8_nutter]

Shirotenshi,
somehow or rather i knew this sizing matter would definitely pop in one of the replies. haha. Speaking of sizing, those tiny milimetres do make a difference. I think last time i did mention that small mods do help in future mods, which is true. the best way to find out if your TB is too small for your intake manifold is to determine what is the intake manifold absolute pressure (map) sensor is reading (inside the intake manifold) when you are at full throttle or wide open throttle (wot) while the car is accelerating using a EMS datalogger. the map should be equal to, or close to, atmospheric pressure. if it isnt or almost there the (map) drop at WOT, then your TB is still too small. no no, dont use a vacuum meter.

the rest like the length and diametre of the intake manifold which actually can be tuned for optimum performance in both low and high rpms. probably v8_nutter can tell you more about the intake part koz he has experiences in building intakes and did trial and errors formulating a good one. The flow rate between TBs and intake manifold is very important.

Yes the flow rate is important. For example,, 2 short intake will give sluggish low end & mid RPM power,,,2 long will "bottleneck" the high RPM. But actually 3 concept is important,,,size,,,lenght,,,& trumpet pattern/design.

 

[shiroitenshi]

Perhaps 1 day when you thinking of fitting ITB on your engine,,,you will understand how it really works. If you happen to have a fren who's using 1,,,do check thier vacuum hose,,where did it connected,,,then you get the idea.

FYI,,,, throttle body size & length do make a difference,,,eventhough it's been bore 2mm only. There is a reason why 2mm is better than 4mm vise-versa. Sometimes we have to learn it the hard way,,,or through experience,,,since im a fabricator, for a single throttle body,,,ive tried staged sizing. Example,,from 4mm bore to 6mm,,then change 8mm butterfly for the sake of power. 1 day you will understand this as well.

Okay.. thanks for the info.. I'll probably give you a PM when I want ITBs, for now.. my paltry B16 needs to become 2 litres first.

 

[J101]

i guess everyone has their own way in gaining their knowledge.

yes, JC do have OER and TODA complete quads and hondata if you are interested. or even if you wanna use haltech or motec for your likings and budget. probably you can give them a call and see how things go from there.

the main guy for hondata in our region would be ricky from hyperracing sunway. probably u can go direct to him since he is the dealer.

ss racing do sell the toda complete quads besides JC.

hope this helps.

Performance books? Aiyah! The money buying those books can futher my mod agenda.. you think i buy ah? ROFL!. No, most of my knowledge is from workshop people/friends I talk to, and also some that mod on their own.

Interesting, I guess most piggybacks do have TPS input and get from there. Seriously, I simply can't figure out how you can base mapping on MAP with ITBs, since there is no plenum.. Come to think of it, I've never asked what happened with the map sensor... I should find out!

You always quote the trade secret thing, and I respect you wanting to keep it a secret, but ultimately you will limit your own exposure/improvement by doing so... you may be the top fabricator for ITBs now, but I'm not taking bets to see how long that lasts.

Hondata? I'm wanting to use their engine management, but dunno any contacts that use them, or know where to get them.. I've heard JC (formerly Amoil?) has them, but I don't know anyone from there personally, so a bit difficult to deal with themlah. Only know a former worker there.. so no help also.

 

[V8_nutter]

i guess everyone has their own way in gaining their knowledge.

yes, JC do have OER and TODA complete quads and hondata if you are interested. or even if you wanna use haltech or motec for your likings and budget. probably you can give them a call and see how things go from there.

the main guy for hondata in our region would be ricky from hyperracing sunway. probably u can go direct to him since he is the dealer.

ss racing do sell the toda complete quads besides JC.

hope this helps.

J101,,

Aftermarket ITB mostly is short,,,which means no midrange power, so we have to lenghten them by 1 inch more. Suitable for track racing,,but for road use, std manifold will outrun them.

Disadvantages of too short ITB, is lack of part throttle thrust (laggy) and power tends to go high RPM only. My first design was a complete TODA copycat (injector at bottom) with ITB facing upwards 45 degree. Very good high RPM power,,no midrange at all with bad part throttle driving. For me the best setup is still aboved placing injector with straight shot to the valve (low end + midrange) with medium lenghth manifold with an extra big trumpets. Give me low + Mid + top end,,,and this design (unit) we only get it from our 7th unit.

 

[shiroitenshi]

J101,,

Aftermarket ITB mostly is short,,,which means no midrange power, so we have to lenghten them by 1 inch more. Suitable for track racing,,but for road use, std manifold will outrun them.

Disadvantages of too short ITB, is lack of part throttle thrust (laggy) and power tends to go high RPM only. My first design was a complete TODA copycat (injector at bottom) with ITB facing upwards 45 degree. Very good high RPM power,,no midrange at all with bad part throttle driving. For me the best setup is still aboved placing injector with straight shot to the valve (low end + midrange) with medium lenghth manifold with an extra big trumpets. Give me low + Mid + top end,,,and this design (unit) we only get it from our 7th unit.

I have a friend who's looking for an ITB setup.. he want to go toda... hearing you say this about the toda ITBs.. perhaps you have a site/shop where he can go and see if you can hook him up with the ITBs?

I'm hoping to go for ITBs as well, but there are horror stories about ITBs having accelerated engine wear (I assume it's from the lack of filters on the trumpet)

Do the ones you make have filters? If they're not godly expensive, I might just forgo 2 litres for a set of ITBs.
I've only heard the sound of an engine (4age) with ITBs once, but they sound really aggressive.. just something I might like to hear on my own engine.

 

[shiroitenshi]

i guess everyone has their own way in gaining their knowledge.

yes, JC do have OER and TODA complete quads and hondata if you are interested. or even if you wanna use haltech or motec for your likings and budget. probably you can give them a call and see how things go from there.

the main guy for hondata in our region would be ricky from hyperracing sunway. probably u can go direct to him since he is the dealer.

ss racing do sell the toda complete quads besides JC.

hope this helps.

It does.. I've been hearing stuff like there's no one competent in Malaysia with hondata.. Hearing this gives me some hope at least of getting a hondata in my car.

I'm quite new with hondas, actually.. so I've been researching a lot before actually deciding to mod my car so I don't get lied by left and right by shops and stuff. Fortunately, I have a cousin and friends who are old players with honda cars.. Unfortunately, I feel sometimes they're stuck with older proven technologies, so don't really want to try something new.

So, my idea of installing hondata was quickly shot down by them. Of course, I do agree that they have had nightmares with shops in KL doing shoddy work (after visiting and seeing a few of the results, I can see why!)

With hondata, I'm pretty sure they don't need to mess with my wiring, since the new version is basically in the ECU box (and worse comes to worst, they'll just kill the ECU box)

As for tuning, I'll definitely drop by the shops you mentioned to observe (see how they work..) No worries about me stealing tuning skills because where in the world would a enthusiast HAVE a dyno in his garage? ROFL!

My knowledge of hondata systems is only limited from the info from the website, and of course, from my cousin that came back from the US (he was using hondata on his ITR there, didn't bring back with him because LHD!) so in a way, this is an experiment for me... I love the covert features though.. no external meters, no external boxes, buttons, etc. for the FTL and FTS features..

 

[J101]

v8nutter,

some other daily driven car brands dont spray fuel on the backside of the valve. as you said about the ITB setup, same thing goes to the b-series that places the injectors so that they spray more towards the port floor. injectors spray a line of fuel onto the backside of the valve, meaning the flat, valve itself, right at the base of the stem. just imagine the stem is like a leaf stem. infact, the ports are more up-down than a daily driven engine, which gives the intake charge a more direct path to the cylinder. that is why probably the honda vtec is still ahead than the rest of other car brands i think. have you check out TWMinductions, what do u think about them?


shiroitenshi,

for the ITBs, the reason being why its still famous but never been applied are due to the fact its loud to your neighbours, hard-to-tune as some would say and must use an EMS that inccurs cost, furthermore as few would say "aiyah, type-r intakemanifold also can make 240whp also mah". so due to all these its not an easy toy to sell at performance shops. furthermore, it has been categories as "Racing Use" only. dont forget, Toda C cams are racing use also rite? hehe. maybe due to the big impact of the JDM scene in america that makes ppl drive with rollcages, quads and carbonated bodyparts to work or school.

about the filteration, you can get piper-cross for a set of RM380.00 to fit on your quads. But then again, the response is slightly deter and the sound will not be as loud as open trumpets. u can use fine meshed-wires(not cheap tho) at the hardware store and place between the trumpets and TBs. that should help. Another thing is placing a metal sheet underneath the quads to protect from water splashing during raining.

i would say ITBs has good response as long you have good compression and good tuning. it can be as small as a b16a or some big displacement 2L, all can be applied for at your own chosen applications, track, drag or maybe street. i believe at such track or drag setups, extreme tuning will be applied which takes racing fuel, semi slicks and etc. so we cant compare street world and competition level.

if you have a good broadband line or leasedlines, download this video
http://users.electrocity.ca/dru/t-blizzard/t-blizzard_EG.mpg (right click, save-as)

cheers guys

 

[shiroitenshi]

shiroitenshi,

for the ITBs, the reason being why its still famous but never been applied are due to the fact its loud to your neighbours, hard-to-tune as some would say and must use an EMS that inccurs cost, furthermore as few would say "aiyah, type-r intakemanifold also can make 240whp also mah". so due to all these its not an easy toy to sell at performance shops. furthermore, it has been categories as "Racing Use" only. dont forget, Toda C cams are racing use also rite? hehe. maybe due to the big impact of the JDM scene in america that makes ppl drive with rollcages, quads and carbonated bodyparts to work or school.

about the filteration, you can get piper-cross for a set of RM380.00 to fit on your quads. But then again, the response is slightly deter and the sound will not be as loud as open trumpets. u can use fine meshed-wires(not cheap tho) at the hardware store and place between the trumpets and TBs. that should help. Another thing is placing a metal sheet underneath the quads to protect from water splashing during raining.

i would say ITBs has good response as long you have good compression and good tuning. it can be as small as a b16a or some big displacement 2L, all can be applied for at your own chosen applications, track, drag or maybe street. i believe at such track or drag setups, extreme tuning will be applied which takes racing fuel, semi slicks and etc. so we cant compare street world and competition level.

if you have a good broadband line or leasedlines, download this video
http://users.electrocity.ca/dru/t-blizzard/t-blizzard_EG.mpg (right click, save-as)

cheers guys

Thanks! The filters sounds just like the solution to the extreme noise... Something agressive, yet a little subdued..

imported ITBs are extremely expensive considering the same amount of money could be better spent elsewhere on other parts (i.e carbon parts, drivetrainparts, etc.), so I'm thinking if there's local ones made with reasonable quality and cost (I'm not looking at cheap.. just reasonable.. I can't bring myself buying a single part that costs 1/3 of my EG. ROFL!

When I did finalized my decision about my exhaust decision (5Zigen bordermax, with mugen extractors) I anticipated people complaning about noise level around my area.. but really, I didn't expect people to compliment me about it! (they say sounds like a real sports car! Of course, I don't floor the throttle until I get on the highwaylah! That's looking for trouble/complaints!

Somemore.. I really love disturbing some of the people I know/posers with those loud exhausts (using small piping, but huge exit pipe at the muffler doing free revving on the traffic stops... One rev past vtec point, and it's enough to drown out their exhaust sound... and keep them quiet for the rest of the stop.. (evil grin)

I have 1Mbps broadband.. but the something is limiting it to 5kbps.. ouch! I anticipate slow download... (>.
Anyway.. you should check with VIS auto in JB, about the limits of a type-r manifold.. I think my friend broke the 240whp limit with the type-r manifold already. Dunno his actual horsepower, he says it's 290whp, but my other friend says it's a little lower.. Now he's looking at bigger ones, or ITBs. Now waiting for one of the other guys to come up with an almost similar setup and I might see a nice close race.

 

[shiroitenshi]

shiroitenshi,

for the ITBs, the reason being why its still famous but never been applied are due to the fact its loud to your neighbours, hard-to-tune as some would say and must use an EMS that inccurs cost, furthermore as few would say "aiyah, type-r intakemanifold also can make 240whp also mah". so due to all these its not an easy toy to sell at performance shops. furthermore, it has been categories as "Racing Use" only. dont forget, Toda C cams are racing use also rite? hehe. maybe due to the big impact of the JDM scene in america that makes ppl drive with rollcages, quads and carbonated bodyparts to work or school.

about the filteration, you can get piper-cross for a set of RM380.00 to fit on your quads. But then again, the response is slightly deter and the sound will not be as loud as open trumpets. u can use fine meshed-wires(not cheap tho) at the hardware store and place between the trumpets and TBs. that should help. Another thing is placing a metal sheet underneath the quads to protect from water splashing during raining.

i would say ITBs has good response as long you have good compression and good tuning. it can be as small as a b16a or some big displacement 2L, all can be applied for at your own chosen applications, track, drag or maybe street. i believe at such track or drag setups, extreme tuning will be applied which takes racing fuel, semi slicks and etc. so we cant compare street world and competition level.

if you have a good broadband line or leasedlines, download this video
http://users.electrocity.ca/dru/t-blizzard/t-blizzard_EG.mpg (right click, save-as)

cheers guys

Thanks! The filters sounds just like the solution to the extreme noise... Something agressive, yet a little subdued..

imported ITBs are extremely expensive considering the same amount of money could be better spent elsewhere on other parts (i.e carbon parts, drivetrainparts, etc.), so I'm thinking if there's local ones made with reasonable quality and cost (I'm not looking at cheap.. just reasonable.. I can't bring myself buying a single part that costs 1/3 of my EG. ROFL!

When I did finalized my decision about my exhaust decision (5Zigen bordermax, with mugen extractors) I anticipated people complaning about noise level around my area.. but really, I didn't expect people to compliment me about it! (they say sounds like a real sports car! Of course, I don't floor the throttle until I get on the highwaylah! That's looking for trouble/complaints! Drive like old granmalah!

Somemore.. I really love disturbing some of the people I know/posers with those loud exhausts (using small piping, but huge exit pipe at the muffler doing free revving on the traffic stops... One rev past vtec point, and it's enough to drown out their exhaust sound... and keep them quiet for the rest of the stop.. (evil grin)

I have 1Mbps broadband.. but the something is limiting it to 5kbps.. ouch! I anticipate slow download... (>.<)

 

[J101]

hello there shiroitensi,

regarding the hondata, i think you have chosen the right path since hondata is meant for honda base maps entirely. no doubt we have the safcs and chips that could vote out hondata due to price, but if you are willing to try, why not. learning curve are full of challenges and also failures. its makes you better at the end of the day. never try, never know.

hondata has few stages. does not mean u have to buy the latest to get the best. you can get the low end for your limited application. they have extensive settings like for nos triggering, turbocharging, launch control and etc. so ure buying based on what u need. look at their website and look on what u want and the price tag is there.

the best way to do it is by ordering a set for yourself and get your personal trusted tuner to have a try on it. it would be better if you have frens so you can try on different maps. they have forums for you to communicate with other hondata owners and tuners. few asian countries has already dealership upon the products so its cheaper and faster for you to call/fax/email them.

dont go so far, hondata came from new zealand and they have heaps of hondata users over there plus its jdm too thats makes chatting alot easier.

 

[shiroitenshi]

hello there shiroitensi,

regarding the hondata, i think you have chosen the right path since hondata is meant for honda base maps entirely. no doubt we have the safcs and chips that could vote out hondata due to price, but if you are willing to try, why not. learning curve are full of challenges and also failures. its makes you better at the end of the day. never try, never know.

hondata has few stages. does not mean u have to buy the latest to get the best. you can get the low end for your limited application. they have extensive settings like for nos triggering, turbocharging, launch control and etc. so ure buying based on what u need. look at their website and look on what u want and the price tag is there.

the best way to do it is by ordering a set for yourself and get your personal trusted tuner to have a try on it. it would be better if you have frens so you can try on different maps. they have forums for you to communicate with other hondata owners and tuners. few asian countries has already dealership upon the products so its cheaper and faster for you to call/fax/email them.

dont go so far, hondata came from new zealand and they have heaps of hondata users over there plus its jdm too thats makes chatting alot easier.

The stages are the old hondata system.. now they have the s300j, full features, and come with software.. USD500+.. for the B-series.. Since the K is popular there now, the price of hondata for the B-series have gone down. Quite comparable to unichip/haltech/etc., although in a way, there's less support for it.

Anyway.. still so much to do, although I'm thinking engine management comes first.. since it supposedly has common setups base maps built in, I can use them in lieu of proper tuning in the meantime (bye bye fair FC)

 

[V8_nutter]

v8nutter,

some other daily driven car brands dont spray fuel on the backside of the valve. as you said about the ITB setup, same thing goes to the b-series that places the injectors so that they spray more towards the port floor. injectors spray a line of fuel onto the backside of the valve, meaning the flat, valve itself, right at the base of the stem. just imagine the stem is like a leaf stem. infact, the ports are more up-down than a daily driven engine, which gives the intake charge a more direct path to the cylinder. that is why probably the honda vtec is still ahead than the rest of other car brands i think. have you check out TWMinductions, what do u think about them?


shiroitenshi,

for the ITBs, the reason being why its still famous but never been applied are due to the fact its loud to your neighbours, hard-to-tune as some would say and must use an EMS that inccurs cost, furthermore as few would say "aiyah, type-r intakemanifold also can make 240whp also mah". so due to all these its not an easy toy to sell at performance shops. furthermore, it has been categories as "Racing Use" only. dont forget, Toda C cams are racing use also rite? hehe. maybe due to the big impact of the JDM scene in america that makes ppl drive with rollcages, quads and carbonated bodyparts to work or school.

about the filteration, you can get piper-cross for a set of RM380.00 to fit on your quads. But then again, the response is slightly deter and the sound will not be as loud as open trumpets. u can use fine meshed-wires(not cheap tho) at the hardware store and place between the trumpets and TBs. that should help. Another thing is placing a metal sheet underneath the quads to protect from water splashing during raining.

i would say ITBs has good response as long you have good compression and good tuning. it can be as small as a b16a or some big displacement 2L, all can be applied for at your own chosen applications, track, drag or maybe street. i believe at such track or drag setups, extreme tuning will be applied which takes racing fuel, semi slicks and etc. so we cant compare street world and competition level.

if you have a good broadband line or leasedlines, download this video
http://users.electrocity.ca/dru/t-blizzard/t-blizzard_EG.mpg (right click, save-as)

cheers guys

J101 sometimes you talk like a professor,, makes me confused.:confused_smile: simple english works fine for me.

 

[J101]

v8nutter
what i was trying to say, the injectors are being placed the closest to the valves, inline to the ports(the longkang of the ports), and also the alignment of the intake ports closest to the cylinders that makes air and fuel travels smoothly. im comparing with the ITBs as some designs shoots from the middle or even direct in the trumpet mouth like the european touring cars which makes tuning even harder. maybe u have trie dthem

so when u gonna show me some pix of your previous made fabricated ITBs and extractors. i can pm you my email if you want.

1st july is near, is the vtec ready yet? :)

 

[hattech-v]

got what 1st july? haha

 

[J101]

http://www.malaysiangp.com.my/motorsports/drag/default.asp

 

[hattech-v]

oic......

 

[V8_nutter]

v8nutter
what i was trying to say, the injectors are being placed the closest to the valves, inline to the ports(the longkang of the ports), and also the alignment of the intake ports closest to the cylinders that makes air and fuel travels smoothly. im comparing with the ITBs as some designs shoots from the middle or even direct in the trumpet mouth like the european touring cars which makes tuning even harder. maybe u have trie dthem

so when u gonna show me some pix of your previous made fabricated ITBs and extractors. i can pm you my email if you want.

1st july is near, is the vtec ready yet? :)

No project at the moment,,,hmm what's your email. I try finding old files/pix ok.

 

[J101]

hi v8_nutter

pm has been sent.


thx

 

[V8_nutter]

Hi,,,check your e-mail. The pixs is from previous cust. car,,,our orange car design can't reveal. But at least you get the idea.