NEW SATRIA R3 Topic

[faisal]

The dynamics of the car was engineered based on the stiffer shell which we achieved by the double spot welding. ( BTW Riggy, a SGTI can and never will have this.) This was the basis for the suspension developement.

By changing to some aftermarket dampers you just chucked away months worth of development time. And they aren't "supposely different" dampers.. they are different internally.. different shims and valving. etc.... They may look the same outside but as people know appearence ain't everything.

Aluminium body panels, moulds and material to meet our OE standards make's the cost prohibitive.. Heck if we could I'd go all the way and even specify thinner glass windows and rear screen ala Renault Clio Cup or Porsche RSR. why stop at panels?

Why SR4?? man you people farny laa. we give premium parts don't want.. we give say too xpensive.. give cheap stuff complain..never can pls anyone...

AS for the Siemens ECU being untuneble... let's just say we have access to equipment that others dont'

Weight loss involve removing many things that were unnecessary, not just the fog lights but the wiring loom and other parts..

We have selected Edar service centre and personell to service the car complete with the parts available... What's the point in selling a car without spares...

So Riggy so why don't one day we meet up and I'll give you a spin in da car so you can give a proper opinion based on first hand experience. eh??

 

[riggy]

faisal,

not once did i comment on the r3s suspension setup and spot welding, mainly coz that's a proper thing done by you guys. ie. i have no qualms about the GTI or the r3 suspension setup.

on the panels, and glass...exactly..why stop there? why wasn't it even started in the first place? or it started ...and stopped after the CF bonnet wasnt put in.

premium parts? seats, while good to have, i also know that every organisation has a development budget to play with, it could have been utilised somewhere else is what i was saying...arent the sr3 good enough? shouldnt more 'goodies' be put in place?

again, the siemens ECU, can be tricked (tinkled with), but how many ppl know how to do so? and as you said, you have access to it, but you may have read is that what worries me is the sensitivity of the setup, it does not allow too many variables in setup, too fixed, not tunable, it basically is a fool proof plan to keep customers from running away from proton service centers as only proton service centers can keep them in tune. - proton is learning from bmw & audi here - special reset tool for their systems. Not to mention, proton's trying to distance it self from mitsu so the siemens is a cheaper (no royalty to pay alternative)....so we get a system that's not as tunable, or foolproof to dust dirt and grime. It may have been wise for proton (as a whole and not to the motorsport division) to come up with proper working systems (and better vendor QC) before using a particular system.

weight loss - hey, it was just me quoting what the newpapers /press interview with motorpsort ppl said about the r3. i.e i read it in the local dailies (if i am wrong here, it goes to show local reporters need help in quoting ppl)

must be about the putra spares comment - what's actually hard, we have lots of chop shops around, and the putra is plentiful and would not have spare part problems.

faisal you've come a long way since the cmb days eh.

regards

riggy

 

[riggy]

oh yeah, of course i'd like a ride in the r3 or the SSO if its alright with you. :D

 

[prozac]

Looks like the problem with us is that we're too used to having access to aftermarket parts to customize our rides. Unfortunately for the manufacturer, this means a big headache, since consumer expectations become higher and more varied.

The problem is in finding the right balance...still, it won't appeal to everyone. Last month's Autocar mag comparison between the Golf, Megane and EP3 highlighted some of the woes Volkswagen faced when trying to please several parties with conflicting interests. Even so, they complained about the electro-mechanical steering on all 3 cars.

About the seats, like riggy mentioned SR3s may not be the most comfy seats for larger adults. R3 probably have to accomodate the fact that there are some VERY large people in Malaysia ^_^
----------------
BTW, u guys know what would be REALLY nice? A special no. plate for R3 cars, with font like the ones on cars sold by Eurocars or those in Singapore.

Words above: Race Rally Research
Words below: Redefining The Limits

Whaddya think? Just one of my crazy suggestions.

 

[Crash]

Originally posted by prozac@Dec 8 2004, 16:56
Looks like the problem with us is that we're too used to having access to aftermarket parts to customize our rides. Unfortunately for the manufacturer, this means a big headache, since consumer expectations become higher and more varied.

The problem is in finding the right balance...still, it won't appeal to everyone. Last month's Autocar mag comparison between the Golf, Megane and EP3 highlighted some of the woes Volkswagen faced when trying to please several parties with conflicting interests. Even so, they complained about the electro-mechanical steering on all 3 cars.

About the seats, like riggy mentioned SR3s may not be the most comfy seats for larger adults. R3 probably have to accomodate the fact that there are some VERY large people in Malaysia ^_^
----------------
BTW, u guys know what would be REALLY nice? A special no. plate for R3 cars, with font like the ones on cars sold by Eurocars or those in Singapore.

Words above: Race Rally Research
Words below: Redefining The Limits

Whaddya think? Just one of my crazy suggestions.

Actually that would be cool, prozac. Customised plates. NICE.

Oh btw, do the M24 R3s come tinted in stock form?

 

[riggy]

Hi again,

One problem (or good thing) about being a manufacturer is that manufacturers can make bulk purchases, hence get large discounts. However, I am actually wondering what the case is with proton (as a whole..not the r3 project only). Take for example the SR4 seats. Do you know the only real difference is the way the stiching/pattern is sewn compared to the sr3? The width is almost the same ( so they'd be as 'comfortable' as the sr3s). You're actually paying so much for a more rounded headrest, and some fancy stiching. So the question about why proton specified the sr4 is quite a mystery. Motorsports div should have made it more of a pure race car than what it is.

Say for example the management of proton had gone to the motorsport div and said "oh great motorsport head of proton, here is the budget for you to make a race spec satria for us to sell to the public at large."

"Sure, whats the budget?" asks the great head of proton motorsports.

"You have a ceiling of RM17,000 premium over the standard GTI" answers management.

So they had RM17,000 (NOTE that in the sales price it says R3 package is around that figure). And what did they do? buy RM6,000.00 seats. looks like thats about close to 40% of the budget. Now, the question is, is 40% of the R3 budget sound reasonable when you could use the 40% on something that adds power, braking or handling? Conclusion to point 1, its not becoz of the manufacturer having a big headache.

They put themselves into such a situation. I mean...aside from aluminium parts, why not spec a pair of racing cams with the money? cams cost at the most RM3000 a pair, why not send the head for gasflowed porting and polishing? i think labour on it would cost less than that. Why not send the bottom end for dynamic balancing? a lighter flywheel? lightweight crankshaft pulley? Instead of spending 40% of the budget on seats!???? seats should be around 20% of the equation.

A conspricacy theory: someone made money specifying those seats. The directors of RECARO malaysia can report to their head honcos in Germany "herr big boss of good seats, guess what? We managed to CON-vince proton to use sr4 seats for their 150units limited edition car!" "wunderbar!" answers germany. There you have it. Its the VENDORS OF PROTON controlling the manufacturer...It should be the other way round.
*note this is totally fiction, unless its true of course!*


Now it is all this that makes me question the actual purpose of this exercise called the r3. I still think the purest, and best Proton from the wira, putra, satria stable was the Wira 1.8 made in 1996-1997. It had a chassis with extra welding spots like the LANCER GSR/evo 1 (WITHOUT the chicken pox look like on the R3 strut towers - why didn't they spec smoother looking weld spots? If a person with no idea of this they'd say the r3 was an accident car), a nice big wing for stability (it actually works), recaro njoys, momo, a very tunable mitsu 1.8 (note diff ecu, cam settings). And proton didnt have to try hard. its a classic all on its own (it already has cult status), I get 1.8 owners telling me about ppl asking them whether their car is for sale all the time.

to quote faisal: "Why SR4?? man you people farny laa. we give premium parts don't want.. we give say too xpensive.. give cheap stuff complain..never can pls anyone"
Honestly, Proton isn't giving, it is we consumers who have to pay for this premium parts. If it were 'giving', like the spirit of christmas, the r3 wouldnt cost RM77k..it should be 72k.

more than 2 malaysian sen worth

regards,

 

[prozac]

I believe there are Wira 1.8 owners who also swapped their cars for the R3... ;)

 

[GTi_T]

Hi Riggy,,

Some interesting comments there.... :huh: You got a very indepth look on the situation at hand.... I am a bit curious though,,, R U somewhat working with proton before,,, a motoring journalist,,,, or just a concerned motorsports and tuning fan...

But in the real world,,,, you just can't please or satisfied everybody.... Economically,,, socially...and taste...

The decision took by proton...?,,, im sure was justified somehow or rather.... (ie. management, networking,,,budget,,, who knows...?)

But,,, we have to give proton motorsports some credit on even coming out with such car anyway.... This shows that they are doing something about car customising, performance and motorsports... This is a start.. Who knows,, in the future, we'll can opt for a turbocharged or a VVT engine proton... Like the Evolution or the vtec series from Mitsubishi and Honda....

Just my also 2 cents..... :D

Cheers, Mate....

 

[heavyfoot]

Then we have to worry about the price!!! :(

 

[riggy]

shaunchen:

Never said they were bad seats in the first place. Just that its justification of it being there.

Its an R3, you could do the same with a stock standard GTI if you wanna use 18inch....do you know proton is saying that the r3 parts are worth rm17k? you're throwing away at least 2k if you change the rims. wHY buy the r3 in the first place then.

Your fiat coupe is a good car. Recaros in it are good. veglia is the italian equivalent to VDO (proton uses this)....who make car clocks too...unless its made be omega, rolex, breitling (bentley comes to mind) , patek or any good swiss watch manufacture then i'll be impressed with a in car clock. Fiat coupes are good cars, just that in malaysia they seem to be as pricey to maintain as an alfa, which is surprising. brembos are always good. momos as i said are also good too.

"So i guess nothing much to play with, the only thing i added was a Greddy Profec B, SARD Boost Meter and Blitz Blow -off Valve. This car the PCD cannot fit japanese rims. Defi pods will make it look like funny. "

You left out supersprint/borla exhausts, air filters, aftermarket chip for the fiat. And you could run lightweight OZ rims for this car. and DEFI pods look very funny on ALL cars. period. The motorsport guys threw out weight, you add 3pods of stuff for looks. Add fire breathing parts...you'll feel better (and faster).

i dont think 140bhp is a good enuff reason to run 18inches. Look at your fiat, even it doesnt run 18inches with 240-250bhp. it comes with smaller rims standard. There is a reason for everything.

You want to modify the R3? get an aftermarket replacement drop in air filter, run a piggyback ECU (safc, pivot afc, emanage etc), crankshaft pulley etc....the list is endless, afterall, it didnt come with honda style TYPE-r mods, which actually goes to show how a company is willing to execute an edgier car compared to the stock ones.

GTi_T:

nO, I am in no way affiliated with proton or a journalist. Just an avid car fan. It isn't hard to make comments when they come up with stuff like this. Like any other manufacturing company, certain decisions in a large organisation baffle the heck out of me. Proton seems to do it more so often than others.

Of couse it's impossible to satisfy everyone...but if you're marketing a car as a hard core enthusiast's car, then do more benchmarking. Look at the honda type-r as an example. Look at the mitsubishi RS spec evos. Look at other stripped out, back to basic limited edition series cars and then look at your development budget. If the budget is so and so, then such and such should happen as i stated earlier.

The actual start for proton in developing performance tuned cars started full swing with the GTI in 1999. If the R3 is meant as a culmination for what the GTI stands for, there is still alot lacking. In my opinion that is.

 

[Rudeboy]

Riggy, whoever and wherever you are, you have raised some interesting points about the Satria R3. But typical of a depressed and sidelined forummer, your gripe sounds remarkably familiar and can be grouped with other Proton-bashing posts.

Although you are clearly disappointed with the specification of the Satria R3, you know that all of us have to appreciate the efforts of Proton(yes, the tin-milo, eternally bad car company) to even come out with an enthusiasts' special.

I will try and appease your pain by justifying some of the things that seemed to have bothered you:

1) The SR4 seats: Whether it is expensive of not, we wouldn't know(all you have is speculation not evidence). In any case, it is better looking and formed than the older SR3, so for it to be a part of the Satria R3 is justification in itself

2) Carbon/aluminium bonnet: you may be right to say that they should've included a proper lightweight material on the car but you have to remember that buying a carbon bonnet in Sunway and manufacturing it responsibly are two different things. Cost is not the only factor sometimes. It has to meet a certain standard and carbon fibre things come in different grades. But since you just have to have it in an enthusiasts' car, they may have decided to play safe and went for the winglet instead.

3) Lap time claim: OK I agree with you on this one. The lap times are done by Tengku Djan, the Motorsport Division's star driver. Obviously, you and I can't possibly match it but its an indication of the car's ability nevertheless. But the marketing department should've instead put it in a different way because claims like this can be contested and may create legal problems.

At the end of the day, enthusiasts love to see numbers and that's why it is presented in such a way.

4) The Advanti wheels(not rims): This is a matter of taste. Just as any new cars, if you don't like 'em you can change 'em. But safe to say that as far as unsprung weight is concerned, it is the correct wheels for the car.

5) R3 power: 140bhp may not be much, I know. Why not 200bhp? or lets say 300? You like?

Lets be realistic here. Proton is a responsible car company as well as a small one. Cost and safety is a concern. If you go to any bengkel, they can do all sorts of things to make your car fly to the moon but this is of course an irresponsible way of doing things. The car comes with a warranty and to honour that - as well as some cost considerations with 150 cars - 140 is a safe number.

In case you forget, going fast is not just a matter of engine power, it also have to do with sweet handling and the R3 has plenty in that department.

 

[prozac]

I believe the argument about whether to include SR4 seats or CF hood definately crossed R3's boardroom (if they have one la hehehe). It doesn't make sense to say that they chose SR4 seats, Mintex pads, etc because of being vendor-controlled...I believe the CF parts also come from a vendor too and is just as susceptible to such speculation. Perhaps there could be more than meets the eye ;)

I'll bet if they put a CF hood, SR3 seats and other stuff to make up for the cost of the SR4s, someone out there will still complain. It will never end.

 

[heavyfoot]

Make the sr4 seat standard for all proton... <_< naahhh never gonna happen

 

[Crash]

Originally posted by prozac@Dec 9 2004, 11:42
I believe the argument about whether to include SR4 seats or CF hood definately crossed R3's boardroom (if they have one la hehehe). It doesn't make sense to say that they chose SR4 seats, Mintex pads, etc because of being vendor-controlled...I believe the CF parts also come from a vendor too and is just as susceptible to such speculation. Perhaps there could be more than meets the eye ;)

I'll bet if they put a CF hood, SR3 seats and other stuff to make up for the cost of the SR4s, someone out there will still complain. It will never end.

All I can say is, R3 has upgrades planned for the SR3 - Stage 1, 2, 3 suspension and engine upgrades. Siemens not tuneable? Hah... surprises in bound.

Riggy, I respect your opinions. Your gripes and comments are similar to a SGTi owner who reads my blog. He too shares similar sentiments about Proton, their over-hyped marketing and the quality of the cars.

Have a read here:
http://www.macxcess.com/vblog/2004/10/racer-boys-take-notice-proton-satria.html

I may not believe in Proton as a whole, but I have faith in R3 and the individuals who run it. I wouldn't have bought the car if I didn't at least think it would be a performer. Was initially thinking of either an Alfa 146, Fiat Bravo or Coupe Turbo.

 

[prozac]

Originally posted by Crash@Dec 9 2004, 13:33
Was initially thinking of either an Alfa 146, Fiat Bravo or Coupe Turbo.

Et tu, Brute?

 

[faisal]

Rude boy, Thanks. you took the words outta my mouth. You at least understand how things work. About the lap time. SIC time was actually done by Faidzil Alang. Djan did the Pasir Gudang time.

Riggy , chill la bro, you keep goin on and on and on and on about why we spec da SR4 that it's starting to be laughable.. but ur entitled to your opinion..

Taste is down to individual.. some people like our red seat belts and some frown on it.. some despise the stripes and some ask for them to be bigger.


Cest La vie

 

[Crash]

Originally posted by prozac+Dec 9 2004, 15:17 -->

QUOTE (prozac @ Dec 9 2004, 15:17 )

--QuoteBegin-Crash

@Dec 9 2004, 13:33 Was initially thinking of either an Alfa 146, Fiat Bravo or Coupe Turbo.

Et tu, Brute? [/b][/quote] You know what would really make my day tho'? A Pug 205 or a 'Baby Godzilla' Nissan Pulsar GTi-R. Both extremely rare.

 

[MK84]

Crash, you'd want a Pug 205 T16. :D

 

[Big Baller]

The Pug and Pulsar are brilliant cars. Of their time, that is. Time to celebrate the Satria R3

 

[Crash]

Originally posted by MK84@Dec 9 2004, 20:10
Crash, you'd want a Pug 205 T16. :D

Slurp. Nuff said. :D A lot of wet pants action!