NEW SATRIA R3 Topic

[alexz]

WOW!! now we have 3 R3 guys in ZTH forum :lol: . I would like to personally thank you all these guys for giving us alot of feedback.

well all of this comments goes both ways. you cant please all ppl. AND all ppl cant please you.

BTW i (and others here) voice out our comments not to run proton to the ground, but to give inputs of what the masses want... that is a malaysian made car that we are proud to own and we can proclaim better than other (mainly jap performance) cars.

we malaysian do need an affordable national car that is proud for malaysians to own. if proton has a model that has the same capability of a civic type R and with the same price of a civic type R in japan, i would rather have the proton any day. its not that we hated protons so much but come to think of it, we still are treated as a second class buyers by proton which gives its overseas buyers so much prority.

i dont condemn proton for giving overseas buyers good cars. i just hope that we fellow countrymens are given the same quality of products and services. i got alot of friends in UK that loves their proton so much. its very rare for them to find anything faulty with the cars (other than the usual power windows lah).

yes the satria R3 is protons first shot at building something of a motorsport special. there is a lot of its pro's and cons. i just hope that proton can see the comments of these ppls as something of what the consumers actually want in their cars. so no hard feelings yea R3 guys B)





okay here are some of my comments

to build a "sporty" car for ppl to pose in and attract the opposite sex, you dont need a car that is equipped with a seam welded shell. thats an overkill. for these kinds of buyers build them a "luxury edition" GTi with beautiful paintwork, interior gadgets, luxury seats and powerful ICE. this will appeal to them.


as for a really special motorsport edition car like what R3 does, i think alot of ppl are expecting a car with the concept somewhat like the evo8 RS or the Impreza spec-C (GDC). a minimalist no holds barred special (never mind with stock seats and interior... or even stock steel wheels) that is worthy of the seam welded shell. thats why alot of ppl are exited when they are shown the SSO cars. they want a car that sticks very close to that concept. it would be nice if a future SRM Gti that has something like this with a price that is cheaper than the normal gti (that can be done by giving the expensive interior as an added cost option).

hmm even the elise has a minimalist concept. ppl buy the elise to enjoy the drive not pose in it (yeah mayb som1 with a thick butt to endure those hard seats will prove they can pose in it). thats why the interior is so minimalist (ppl didnt gawk at the elise to wonder its dashboard, but they are busy enjoying the drive to notice the minimal interior. thats why that same minimalist concept in a gen2 to me is odd... coz all your senses are concentrating at the minimal interior, not taken away by the car handling or power )

YES we need something like the stage1 car, with great handling quality that will blow the breath of its driver, but the no frills version pls, bcoz ppl who appreciate seam welded shells are those who hangs around workshops as their hobby, not the fillthegasandthatsit type (BTW i know how to seam weld a chassis... done that before... it REALLY gives the car alot of difference in handling... yeah its alot easier to be done on a virgin shell than on a on the road already car :( . oh is the satria prod line still hand built? must be thougher to do seamwelding stuff for gen2 robotic prod line i suppose...)


just my 2sens of thought...

 

[handsome_lala]

Agreed alexz, its hard to pls every one....imagine, David James commented that the BMW M3 is pale and unassuming car ( i know many people who will break a leg just to own one, i would and pls lets not go into his goal keeping antics)....it all depends on the individual!!

Alexz, from your comment i assume you are a POSER? hahah just joking...but seriously a luxury Gti? hhmm u must have had the idea after reading about the yet to launch GOLF Gti .....but i think if proton were to build such a car, it would cost a bomb!! the price of a normal Golf here is already rm145k :(

As for my comments on the R3.....

Stage one is exactly what i want in a car at the moment, i dont want to spend too much time and money trying out to figure which after market product goes well with my car (i had a tough time with my ford lynx tx3). As for the seam welded shell, its a good thing because it defferentiates my Satria from others (only 150 units).

Stage 2? hhmmm sounds interesting...(quite tempted actually) but at the moment Stage 1 is sufficient....

I have got mixed reviews from my frens and coleagues. Some love it some hate it!! Every one has certain criteria that they want in a car. As for me the R3 fits in nicely!!

 

[alexz]

im not that type lar :lol: . but adian did comment on ppl who buys the sporty Gti just to attract the opposite sex. for this type of guys extra 17k that was supposedly added to the R3 is better put into nice sound system, electric folding mirrors and top of the range recaro's. and this luxo sporty shouldnt be a limited edition (but put it a "special" unlimited). so for this types the seam welded shell is a waste. like i say ppl who appreciate seam welded shells (like ME!) are speed jukies who loves driving, and dont mind a stripped out minimalist car that outhandles other cars on the road.

(BTW its the same for other cars for example the EVO8. for those who wants comfort there is the GSR, performance the RS stripped out interior 15inch steel rims version. the impreza has the normal GDA, higher performance GDB and all out minimalist GDC versions. i would love to see a proton with the same concept as the EV8 RS and GDC and yes, that would not please ALL people)

 

[Crash]

It's here. Finally. After more than a month's wait. Was it worth the wait?

Here it is guys. Collected my car with much butterflies in the stomach and excitement a 3-year old would demonstrate when given an ice-cream. Really cannot explain how a car can have such an effect on the full grown men. But then again, many at ZTH would probably react the same way :) Faisal was there to ensure everything went to plan (that's customer service for ya, folks!) and of course my SA - Affandy was present to assist me with checking before official handing-over. No major issues except that the carbon fibre spoiler has been temporarily replaced with a PU GTi version. Faisal explained that there was a quality issue and a new, better vendor has been assigned to develop the replacements. An official letter from R3 was issued to inform buyers of the situation. A replacement would be available sometime in January. And oh, nice R3 cap Faisal, thanks!

First impressions? It's quite preliminary, since I've only deflowered it for 100km. Actually I don't think I've officially deflowered it yet. Here goes nothing:

http://www.macxcess.com/images/r3/r3-wheel.jpg

http://www.macxcess.com/images/r3/r3-rear.jpg

Exterior
I am pretty neutral about the styling. I like its subtlety. And it actually looks better in the flesh. This car has presence. No doubt about that. The Advanti rims, wrapped in Yoko rubber look the business, and I really do not mind the red + white decal too. The R3 badges are nice, and I'll be sure to guard them with my life, since they are rare and according to Faisal expensive to make because of its short run. I have minor qualms about the fitting of the spoiler, and one of the R3 strips on the side. Other than that, top job.

Interior
I love the Recaro SR4 seats. Snuggly and tight. However, one complain would be that I think it sits too high. Especially for a 6ft 2-incher like me. It would have been super if it was just a tad lower. The MOMO Tuner steering is nice although I do miss my MOMO Race somewhat. I also like the carbon fibre knob. Not quite MOMO Air Leather, but nice feel. The R3 carpets are nice, and the red door and seat trimmings are ok. Pretty neutral on that. I just wished the dashboard panels were carbon fibre, even faux carbon fibre would do. But that isn't really a complaint, just a thought.

The fittings are pretty tight, no squeaks or rattles although I did notice a slight rattle on my right speaker when the bass pumps (which is not much, from the Clarion head unit). The dreaded usually useless coin box is still flimsy. You would think that after 20 years in the business, Proton would get that right, but no they didn't. It did fit snuggly back in place after some coercion though. I suggest removing the damn thing from the dashboard mould altogether. Nobody uses it anyway.

One thing I dislike are the pedals. Yes, they are GTi ones. But they are awfully small. And they feel light and aluminium-ish. Also, no thanks to my size 11 feet! One of my first mods would be to replace them with Sparco Carbons. I also think the clutch pedal rides too high. Way higher than my 1.8 Persona and a Putra I recently tested. I'll get the SC to adjust the pedal-height on my 1,000km service, if that's even possible. Just feels plain wierd. And thanks to the overly high clutch, an embarrassing incident entailed at the lights at Bangsar Shopping Complex. Engine stalled as I released the clutch. Hmm. Not good. Haha.

The cabin is surprisingly quiet, despite the fact that some sound dampening have been removed.

The Clarion headunit is fugly, just as the rest of the Proton stock radios. I'm not really complaining. But it is fugly. :(

One thing left out I feel is the V-Kool tinting on the SGTi. The exclusion means forking out even more money - for slightly more comfort and security. Drats. A thumbs down here.

Performance
I'm running it in gently, despite claims by a certain Motorman, so no revving above 3,000rpm. At least not until I hit the 1,000km mark. Despite that fact, low-end torque is good. I can feel the poke as low as 2,000rpm. The short-throw gearbox is nice, although still quite 'stiff' I must say. Will know when it's properly run-in. But you know what? The SR3 just begs to be driven fast. I have to remind myself constantly to keep the revs down. Temptation abound I tell you. Grr.

The handling? Spot on! If there's one thing the R3 engineers got right, its the suspension. Supple yet firm, the ride is superb and it really exudes confidence at corners. I prefer something stiffer personally, however, no complaints about ride or handling. This car is sorted. Really. Steering feel is good - very point-and-steer. I have yet to properly test the brakes, as I'd like to run them in gently, at least for another week or so. One quirk is that my brakes are squeaking - both the front ones. It has demonstrated some rather impressive Mariah Carey-shaming high-pitched squeals, even at low speeds. Must get this rectified.

The exhaust has a bassy note at idle and it isn't overly vocal when revved. Then again, the opportunity to really put the car through its paces will not surface till later, hence I cannot comment on the aural personality of the SR3 at present.

http://www.macxcess.com/images/r3/r3-engine2.jpg

Summary - The Good
It's a day old. I've driven it for 100kms. I love it. It's an addictive car, I have to stress. I'm still getting to know it, still stroking it gently, embracing it. I love the engine bay, the anodised metal bits, the personalised serial number on the cam cover. Good stuff. I love the handling and the ride. I love the SR4 and how they hold me in place. I like the subtle styling and the Incognito Black.

http://www.macxcess.com/images/r3/r3-engine3.jpg

Summary - The Bad
Seats sit too high. Pedals too tiny and flimsy almost. Clutch pedal too high. Coin box still cheap and flimsy. Slight rattle on right speaker. Squeaky, squealing front brakes. No V-Kool tinting. Clarion head-unit fugly.

Well, that's it. A first-hand account of the M24 R3 LEV in action – virginal yet hot. More reports will come as the run-in period progresses. In the meantime, LET'S DRIVE!

Oh, btw - check the cat-bypass pipe :)

http://www.macxcess.com/images/r3/r3-pipe.jpg

 

[alexz]

congrats to you man. wow nice chassis number... reminds me of james bond :lol:

BTW the normal Gti hood is steel, not fibreglass (as all protons).

err does that mean that you will finally get a carbonfibre hood free of charge in january? WOW!

as for your brakes. did you bed them in?? new brakes should be bedded in by breaking gently and not in hard and sudden manner.

 

[Crash]

Oops..sorry. It should be CF spoiler, not hood. My bad.

 

[alexz]

Originally posted by Crash@Dec 14 2004, 01:07
Oops..sorry. It should be CF spoiler, not hood. My bad.

wahlau... if CF hood many ppl will cry lah :lol:

so... just a typo... sigh....

 

[sousuke]

eh Crash...take a pic of the R3 cap since i wanna see how it looks like...will call Faisal soon to go pick it up :D

 

[handsome_lala]

Crash, nice review....

wow u are 6ft 2inch? hhmm we got ourself an R3 Bouncer :o

Alexz, you are right we will get our CF spoiler in Jan!! It was really nice of Faizal to come over and explain about this issue (haha he forgot that he has already told me over the phone a few weeks ago) But never the less, hats down to motorsports for the after sales support (imagine the major disapointment if the news was given by the SA).

Well i am just looking beyond the minor build quality issues that my car has at the moment!! Its really a nice car to drive, a driver's car. Previously I added Titan shocks (cost me rm2800) to my ford lynx tx3 and really like the handling and ride qualities of my ex car. But with the R3, the hand and ride is just thumbs up (was it khaidi who tuned the suspension?)

 

[prozac]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Djan tune the suspension?

Anyway...great first impression, Crash. About the clutch, since I've been driving automatics for the past 5 years and can't really remember how my previous manual car was like, I feel the clutch is a matter of getting used to. I'm quite comfortable with the current settings. But hopefully you can get yours fixed to your liking.

Sexiness...is in the eye of the beholder. This car has received quite a few stares already, no matter where it's parked. The nice effect is that the stares are mostly double-takes. Passer-by's glance first, turn away, then suddenly start to stare. Whether they are good stares or bad ones, I don't know. But I'm sure owners feel as proud as GTi owners did when their cars first rolled out.

So far, the car's a great package. To me the only thing I'd wish for is a 6-speeder box. Well, we can wish can we? :)

 

[Crash]

Originally posted by prozac@Dec 14 2004, 09:25
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Djan tune the suspension?

Anyway...great first impression, Crash. About the clutch, since I've been driving automatics for the past 5 years and can't really remember how my previous manual car was like, I feel the clutch is a matter of getting used to. I'm quite comfortable with the current settings. But hopefully you can get yours fixed to your liking.

Sexiness...is in the eye of the beholder. This car has received quite a few stares already, no matter where it's parked. The nice effect is that the stares are mostly double-takes. Passer-by's glance first, turn away, then suddenly start to stare. Whether they are good stares or bad ones, I don't know. But I'm sure owners feel as proud as GTi owners did when their cars first rolled out.

So far, the car's a great package. To me the only thing I'd wish for is a 6-speeder box. Well, we can wish can we? :)

Funny you should mention the word 'sexy' Prozac. My girl pal commented that it's a sexy black stallion! She's not a car person but thinks the car is nice and enjoys the ride. Very planted, she said.

I've done 180km since 7pm yesterday. Can't stop driving. Absolutely addictive.

The squeaking brakes are annoying me. Will bring them to SC to be checked out. Plus there seems to be a obvious squeak on the front left suspension on undulations. The sound is also evident when I deliberately push down the car. Grr...

Gripes, gripes.

We should do a TT the few of us, just to bitch about the car, hahah.

 

[riggy]

Somehow, i'm actually touched that so many R3 ppl chose to reply to my rants and ravings........ :D

However, we now have heard the manufacturer's comments on the issue and while my comments seem to go over on most of the point, has it clearly been answered? Then again, maybe proton's internal auditors should do that. Clearly, the r3 marketing campaign has some holes in its armour. If not, I wouldnt be bringing up some of the comments i've brought up.

khaidi : i am glad that you noticed how i typed the word 'CONvince'

it costs more to remove stuff? yes i'm sure it is. You've basically told me that the R3 started from a ready, fully equipped GTI where its driven into the motorsports div parking bay, where you guys, conviniently throw out all the soundproofing, parts, etc.

OR

DID the R3 start from a bare chassis on casters that is brought out from the assembly line and fitted without soundproofing and fitted with the r3 parts?

if it was the former, then you're tellin that the R3 came from ready stock GTI and you guys did the modifications yourselves. Of course it'll cost more then...you'll have tons of power window sets, PU spoilers, rims, tires, steering wheels and soundproofing lying around. (this is another of my 'X-FILES' theories as i seemingly have no conclusive proof whatsoever)

what khaidi said about benchmarking...again..the R3 marketing campaign needs correcting. Notice that in all the press releases this wasn't highlighted. This are important marketing figures for car-freaks.

'Lesson: What options are there? Think…If there were options you would have exercised it. WHY are there no options in this price bracket? Because it’s not commercially viable. Manufacturers rather sell sports/luxury rates so they can optimise the warranty cost. That’s like Proton giving a two-year warranty for a 200bhp 2.0 WAJA @ RM190k. Nobody can afford it leaving us poor folks recon cars or joined half-cuts'

-didnt adian say as manufacturers you can get prices down? And did you know that you nearly implied that proton CANNOT afford to give long warranties on anything at around 78k with more than 150bhp? okay.....proton is considered a small manufacturer compared to toyota, honda and subaru...wait, did i say subaru? isnt that the smallest or second smallest car manufacturer in japan? why can they afford to give warranty to their wrx? it costs 195k due to excise duties and tax and the great motorimage markups (to survive mar...how to make money if they sell it cheap). Take a look at the actual price without the markups. Note that its not a stripped out race car - its got full soundproofing, luxuries etc.

'So why don’t I just wait for STAGE 2'

- again, why have stages 1-3 in the first place? theories -
1. not enuff development time - proton wanted the car out fast
2. profit 101 : how to milk the customer silly.

note that the r3 can run rings round a chipped 1.8 due to the fact that it OUTHANDLES the chipped 1.8. I am fully aware of the capabilities of a well sorted car. I also said earlier that i liked what they did to the chassis.

so you're askin me to test the car b4 dishing out comments...i will. but note that my comments are purely on a few issues that do not actually relate to HANDLING other than my request for alu parts. (unless seats count as the handling package that is).

in all honesty, i am glad proton had the guts to try a race influenced car as i said earlier...but, i DO NOT think that they did ENOUGH (i say this again)

I think the r3 guys had better cook up marketing strategies and have a stronger marketing. Notice how tactful adian was in replying my comments. He should lead the marketing team totally. However, i note that he and the others, being representatives of the manufacturer has his hands tied. i.e when you work for a company, you don't diss the mouth that feeds you. i mean, if you work for IBM you dont go round telling ppl 'IBM is like dirt' do you.

my 2sen is suddenly worth more and more

regards.

 

[prozac]

I believe Subaru isn't just any small company. It's part of a huge conglomerate; Fuji Heavy Industries. They manufacture stuff from buses to ecology systems:

http://www.subaru-global.com/about/ci/index.html

Yes, perhaps R3 didn't create a car that isn't 100% worth its price in the eyes of a few people. However, so far no buyer has complained about the R3 package (other than the standard Proton hereditary issues). As mentioned, this is just their first attempt. You don't scold the baby when it fails to walk the first time...

 

[prozac]

Crash, the word sexy should be credited to an old aunty who saw my car and commented. You should feel lucky it's a chick who said it to ya! :P

 

[Crash]

Originally posted by prozac@Dec 14 2004, 11:00
Crash, the word sexy should be credited to an old aunty who saw my car and commented. You should feel lucky it's a chick who said it to ya! :P

Muahahahha...a friend of mine said he might have seen your car in Bangsar a day back. Was that you?

 

[riggy]

Originally posted by prozac@Dec 14 2004, 10:58
I believe Subaru isn't just any small company. It's part of a huge conglomerate; Fuji Heavy Industries. They manufacture stuff from buses to ecology systems:

http://www.subaru-global.com/about/ci/index.html

Yes, perhaps R3 didn't create a car that isn't 100% worth its price in the eyes of a few people. However, so far no buyer has complained about the R3 package (other than the standard Proton hereditary issues). As mentioned, this is just their first attempt. You don't scold the baby when it fails to walk the first time...

yes i knew that fact, but they dont simply distribute profits or operating costs among the subsidiaries. That's unethical business practice. Eg. Mitsubishi earlier this year asked daimler chrysler for cash to get them out of financial difficulties. The holding company refused. Same case, board of directors in large conglomerates arent like many of our small SDN. BHD. companies. But it is a fact that subaru is small among car manufacturers in japan.

Actually, prozac, i agree with you there, as i haven't touched on the build quality of the cars since my first posting here. I am merely pointing out some things that need to be done aside from that fact.

however, i am beginning to think if this continues, (since it looks like most of the proton motorsport ppl are reading), a major PR disaster will be on the hands of proton motorsports if their boys keep answering

regards.

 

[prozac]

Originally posted by riggy@Dec 14 2004, 11:11
however, i am beginning to think if this continues, (since it looks like most of the proton motorsport ppl are reading), a major PR disaster will be on the hands of proton motorsports if their boys keep answering

Why worry? I believe quite a few more cars have been sold since this argument started. After all, potential customers would rather listen to owners than the man on the street ;)

Added: BTW, I myself don't know the situation in Subaru so I don't want assume whether the company gets assistance from its parent or not, without more understanding. In fact, the Mitsu-DC point you mentioned needs more research. DC itself is facing problems with its other brands and it's beyond an "ethical" one. Here's the link to the news:

DaimlerChrysler to Let Ailing Mitsubishi Crash

Like I said many pages ago...there's more than meets the eye :ph34r:

 

[riggy]

prozac: quite true. Owners give the best testimonials. But company representatives should may find themselves in hot soup with management IF senior management finds out that they've posted a boo boo. I mean, would you want your friendly neighbourhood motorsport rep to get the boot?

 

[adian]

Hi Riggy...

Seriously, do give it a rest, please!!

The R3 boys are taking it personally because it seems as if they are not competent enough to know how to build a HOT and desireable performance hatch, when in fact they do, and I can vouch for that because a lot of us spend tons of our own hard earned $$$ modding our cars and reading about cars and loving cars and storing car magazines in our toilets and all to the great annoyance of our female other half!!!

Unfortunately there are a lot more intricacies to this big (but small) company called Proton, and as the Project Manager for the Satria R3 I can personally tell you it nearly didn't happen the way it has. That we have been able to create and sell such a vehicle from within the confines of a bureaucratic and dinosaur auto company is a big step already. Internally, we are heralding this as a greater success than any of you out there can see: it has broken down some barriers which can only lead to greater and better products by Proton as a whole.

I hear you when your stake your argument as "R3 didn't do enough". As I have mentioned earlier, taking a certain amount of $$ and going to a chop shop and Sunway isn't the same at our level. For example taking out the ABS isn't just about taking out the ABS but then researching for a proper balance between front and rear brake capabilities and bias to match the performance, tyres, suspension, and weight of the vehicle. Things really aren't as simple as they seem. This is what Khaidi was trying to get at.

Khaidi is actually the guy that irritates me everyday, proposing that we put a small-block Chevy V8 with twin T50 turbos that puts out 750hp into a Perdana and call it the R3 Perdana V8, or asking why it's impossible to make a Waja with an EVO8 engine but with only RWD. At R3 we're all trying to redefine the limits, but the limits were very tight and low to begin with. Give us time, and R3 will prove it to everyone.

I did mention.. R3 did try out different camshaft profiles and timings, but they would not be legal. You mention that there are "other secrets" we could have done to the engine.. unfortunately, given the limitations, no there weren't. R3 cannot hand-port 150 heads or lighten 150 cranks and rods, this isn't Ferrari and the price of the car is only 78k. R3 cannot install higher-comp pistons or a metal headgasket because it would cost more to produce the tooling and processes involved which cannot be made back from only 150 units, not to mention the horrors of testing and development to satisfy the warranty people. Turbocharging?? That would take a whole lot of development and investment.

The Perdana V6 brake caliper conversion that is so popular is actually crap. The brake balance is all off, the sensitivity is all off, and did you know they use the same brake pads anyway so you're not really getting any extra surface area. And no, Proton can't just call up Mitsu and ask "Hey Mr Nip, can I buy 150 sets of EVO3 twinpot calipers and discs?".

Product development isn't just about coming out with the bestest product that you can make within a certain cost and development budget, it's also about how and where the product will fit in the Big Picture, how much further the product can develop before the end of it's lifecycle, placing/positioning of the product in the market, etc... Hah I'm sure most of us here are familiar with the "4Ps" of marketing!

And lastly, as I did also mention earlier, creating a product is a bit about give and take, a bit about compromising the demands of many sectors of the market to come up with a product that most, if not all, of the consumers will enjoy within a limited budget.

Please accept this reply as my last regarding your queries. Yes, R3 hears you loud and clear and will take your constructive questions and comments into account during future product development, but Rome was not built in a day. Take it from me we do have some of the best ppl in the business at R3, but we are only small fish in a big ocean.

Lastly, in what other country do you have representatives of an auto manufacturer's Motorsports Dept/div responding directly to your queries in an open, public forum? Please do try to respect our limitations and we will respect your opinions.

Thanks.

/adian

 

[adian]

Oh, a last one... about us R3 reps personally discussing these issues on the 'Net.. it's a PR boo-boo, it's how we do business in the 21st century actually. It's better that we can get to know the customers better in order to better give the customers what they want. It's important to also be accessible, rather than if we didn't give a damn about all the gripes and comments of the Satria R3 owners. This is actually something that we are proud of and hope to continue with.

Anyway, nerds like me.. I've always been a ZTH forummer since it first came up in what, 1999? 2000?? can't remember. I have a lot of friends on ZTH that have become pretty good buddies that can be trusted and depended on.

/adian