oi L818, u driving auto ah?
Dyno results the ultimate measurement tool ??
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BH,
masuk adj cam pulley only la .. still using stock cams .. wanna get william to "dyno tune" the adj pulley for maximum power maaa B) he only free after back from his overseas trip next month .. till then gotta wait and enjoy "butt dyno" tuned setting la :lol:
levin818 @ wong sifu,
ermmm asking you maaa if this so called "mods" does not show on dyno chart then how to know what difference it gonna make after install wor ?? blur case ma meeeeeee :unsure:
yolk: i thot william said no need dyno? driver feel is best?
I oso belong to the stupid category, too damm blur to make a guess what's my car AFR that I have to pay Speedworks and DMT to dyno it for me. And too stupid to guess what's the optimum powerband when I revved to the rev-limiter.
OK seriously, general tuning still lies a lot on feel. But there's something that feel alone can't reveal to you. And dyno is not all about huw much horses your car is pumping out. More importantly, use dyno as a tool to accurately (most of the time) gauge Air Fuel Ratio, Powerband Pattern, Optimum Shift Point, Torque Pattern, Drivetrain Losses, Power Delivery Flat Spots etc - these things our butt can't tell us.
I believe in Dyno reading, but not Dyno Tuning - not with Malaysian operators at least.
OK seriously, general tuning still lies a lot on feel. But there's something that feel alone can't reveal to you. And dyno is not all about huw much horses your car is pumping out. More importantly, use dyno as a tool to accurately (most of the time) gauge Air Fuel Ratio, Powerband Pattern, Optimum Shift Point, Torque Pattern, Drivetrain Losses, Power Delivery Flat Spots etc - these things our butt can't tell us.
I believe in Dyno reading, but not Dyno Tuning - not with Malaysian operators at least.
EFN: then? after reading the dyno wat do u do if u see something's not right? do u correct it by re-tuning it? or u jes leave it be... letup means letup la...
if u correct wat's not right based on the data on d dyno sheet... isn't tat dyno tuning/
Ah yes, the last two dyno run I did was for troubleshooting purpose. At that time I have installed three major "go fast" gadgets (TOM's Carbon Plenum, Apexi N1 Exhaust & FSE FPR). Being a poor after spending money on those gadgets, I resorted to tinkering and tuning them on my own aided by my butt dyno. After extensive test runs I finally have identified the ideal combo for them. But what I am not sure is if my engine is running optimal AFR for economy puprpose since my car is also daily driven. I suspect that I can still push the setup yet another stage but can't exactly gauge how much or how far - so I decided to do a Dyno session and I got the answers to my question - Yes! from the AFR curve I can actually bump it up another 2 PSI on the FPR to get to the desired powerband and still maintain fuel economy effeciency - and get another 2WHP while I am at it.
The idea is to spend a lot of time to learn the car's behaviour and once you memorized them, dynoing once or two will help a lot in the margins that you have to troubleshoot them at a later stage - unless something drastic like major hardware change has been introduced so the estimation remains true.
Just my 2cents
err.. i'd still think it's a mild form of dyno tuning..coz dyno is involved.. though not as drastic as 1-2 hours on dyno.. it's more like getting it dyno..with the data on hand.. u fiddle with the bla bla..etc..etc.. (with the data in mind) then after awhile.. dyno again.. .. bla bla.. etc..etc.. d process repeats again...
btw, u got an auto club rite? going fr TTT dis fri nite? ;)
btw, u got an auto club rite? going fr TTT dis fri nite? ;)
Correct!!!! Like I said, I still believe in Dyno Reading not Dyno Tuning - Dyno Tuning as is paying other people (the operator) to do tuning for you.
TTT dis Friday?, halo fren TTT already last Friday laaaa hahahahaha. Unles you are talking about some other TTT that I am not aware of.
auto club? you gotta send invitation to Levin818 first hahahaha, else nanti WAAM president marah nobody invite him hahahahahaha
Perhaps in Japan they might have Response Machine that can be use to measure time needed for your engine rpm to climb from idle to 8000rpm.
Then from the result u will be able to see the improvement of the response curve after had those lighten and balance staff installed.
Alternative way, find out your new lap time at sepang circuit...
Then from the result u will be able to see the improvement of the response curve after had those lighten and balance staff installed.
Alternative way, find out your new lap time at sepang circuit...
halo halo guys, dont argue. let me make this fair for everyone.
1. dyno people : the most clever guys in the world, dyno really help u a lot in `numbers` of your car power and torque. But can u guys really know what is happening inside your engine? anybody care about the engine temp. or wear and tear when u dyno? anybody can confirm that the dyno machine never tell lies or the owner want more business by make your car to lower horse power and try to sell u their parts ?
2. never dyno people : try to believe dyno machine but not too much.
1. dyno people : the most clever guys in the world, dyno really help u a lot in `numbers` of your car power and torque. But can u guys really know what is happening inside your engine? anybody care about the engine temp. or wear and tear when u dyno? anybody can confirm that the dyno machine never tell lies or the owner want more business by make your car to lower horse power and try to sell u their parts ?
2. never dyno people : try to believe dyno machine but not too much.
ooooo...
so lightening the internals will only determine how FAST u come to your peak power, not actually increase it. i always dumbly thought that the less mass need to move, more hp will be spared :lol: hahaa damn :ph34r:
and changing the final drive will have no effect on dyno, coz malaysian dyno operators still use only 1 gear for each run (why NFSU2 the dyno machine like shift from 1,2 then 3 horr? is that the proper way? or he just play2 with the minyak only (no shift gear)?
the power output will not change from final drive tweaking bcoz hp on dyno machine is the same regardless of gear and powerband shift effect from the final drive ratio is only visible when shifting gears during driving/racing. when u tweak the gears themselves however, the thing that will change significantly on the dyno chart is the torque graph shape, but this is meaningless and wont happen bcoz it needs time measurement to compare to. betul la chin cakap liao. must measure against time. otherwise meaningless. :kowtow: :kowtow:
so lightening the internals will only determine how FAST u come to your peak power, not actually increase it. i always dumbly thought that the less mass need to move, more hp will be spared :lol: hahaa damn :ph34r:
and changing the final drive will have no effect on dyno, coz malaysian dyno operators still use only 1 gear for each run (why NFSU2 the dyno machine like shift from 1,2 then 3 horr? is that the proper way? or he just play2 with the minyak only (no shift gear)?
the power output will not change from final drive tweaking bcoz hp on dyno machine is the same regardless of gear and powerband shift effect from the final drive ratio is only visible when shifting gears during driving/racing. when u tweak the gears themselves however, the thing that will change significantly on the dyno chart is the torque graph shape, but this is meaningless and wont happen bcoz it needs time measurement to compare to. betul la chin cakap liao. must measure against time. otherwise meaningless. :kowtow: :kowtow:
say a normal dyno chart with "typical" stock or mild modded 20V output. usually we see ppl dyno machine the operator runs on 1 gear only (regardless of which one lah)
good hp.. torque like so.. ok lor.. base information. :D
good hp.. torque like so.. ok lor.. base information. :D
Now, we are narrowing this to mods that are comprised of lightened parts that make the engine rev smoother or gear better, NOT those mods which are specifically for increasing flow/fuel/hp etc.
say that there is a rolling dyno calculator/display that can read and produce dyno chart against time as we are driving (yes, or a glorified butt dyno :P)
this example only takes into account no.2 - final drive ratio. (4.3 or watever lah. in this case it is the smaller final drive)
**all figures are highly estimated and exaggeration.. dun believe one, example only :lol:
* the speed measurements are simple indication, no graph unit was specifically allocated to indicate them (emphasis on TIME)
say that there is a rolling dyno calculator/display that can read and produce dyno chart against time as we are driving (yes, or a glorified butt dyno :P)
this example only takes into account no.2 - final drive ratio. (4.3 or watever lah. in this case it is the smaller final drive)
**all figures are highly estimated and exaggeration.. dun believe one, example only :lol:
* the speed measurements are simple indication, no graph unit was specifically allocated to indicate them (emphasis on TIME)
so theoretically (stupid guessing fantasy imagining is more like it) the larger final drive wont affect the dyno chart on our real dyno machines..
but based on driving experience, it is deducted that assuming the rolling dyno thingamajig is magically applied after installing the 4.733 (bigger la) FD, the performance will increase when plotted against TIME domain. power output will remain, its the WAY the power comes out and HOW SOON it peaks/becomes available etc that counts now. remember we are only talking abt gearing/lightened parts mod only.
performance in the sense of moving in real life, not how much power it produces (also an aspect of "performance")
OK OK u can stop laffing at me now :lol: if its wrong, then its a joke wakakaka (damn bloody malu oledy mau cover lagi :P)
but based on driving experience, it is deducted that assuming the rolling dyno thingamajig is magically applied after installing the 4.733 (bigger la) FD, the performance will increase when plotted against TIME domain. power output will remain, its the WAY the power comes out and HOW SOON it peaks/becomes available etc that counts now. remember we are only talking abt gearing/lightened parts mod only.
performance in the sense of moving in real life, not how much power it produces (also an aspect of "performance")
OK OK u can stop laffing at me now :lol: if its wrong, then its a joke wakakaka (damn bloody malu oledy mau cover lagi :P)
bear in mind that since yoga only put forward 3 items for now which happens to be things that are "undynoable" IMO (i might be wrong), wat i mean is these mods that yoga put so far wont really show on dyno.. so that is where i narrow my attempt at figuring out the whole deal. these items may "free" up lost hp at turning things between engine and wheel (i think that is unlikely), but at first glance i just think they are those stuff u need to play by ear (new term "tune by butt") :lol:
so i'll make it clear that im not siding the sentiment that dyno is useless.
i do agree for troubleshooting and determining mods that govern the engine's power/longevity/wear n tear, a good & credible dyno is a must. only certain things may not be tunable to its fullest on the rollers. i just think they include the mods yolk has listed so far.
im only trying to put together wat chin said, so for the record, im not a part of this dyno ppl vs no dyno ppl :lol:
..plus posting the jokes above.. damn i feel stupid already. u guys can aah.. stop laffing now :P
so i'll make it clear that im not siding the sentiment that dyno is useless.
i do agree for troubleshooting and determining mods that govern the engine's power/longevity/wear n tear, a good & credible dyno is a must. only certain things may not be tunable to its fullest on the rollers. i just think they include the mods yolk has listed so far.
im only trying to put together wat chin said, so for the record, im not a part of this dyno ppl vs no dyno ppl :lol:
..plus posting the jokes above.. damn i feel stupid already. u guys can aah.. stop laffing now :P
PRECISELY!
Sirazul from Powerzone taught me that the very idea behind lightening and balancing is enhancing the speed it takes to reach peak power. More importantly, Lightening & Balancing is actually aimed at higher durability while harnessing out the power - make sense yes? light internals will induce less mass for engine revolution, while balanced rotating parts will cure any imbalance that contribute to harsher wear factor.
Lightened and Balanced motor will not necessarily gain any extra HP, but it will surely be more efficient at harnessing them throughout the powerband. Power will always come from tuning, so meaning to say that even if you spend a fortune in rebuilding an engine with top dollar Blueprinting work, it will still make less power if not tuned properly.
Sirazul from Powerzone taught me that the very idea behind lightening and balancing is enhancing the speed it takes to reach peak power. More importantly, Lightening & Balancing is actually aimed at higher durability while harnessing out the power - make sense yes? light internals will induce less mass for engine revolution, while balanced rotating parts will cure any imbalance that contribute to harsher wear factor.
Lightened and Balanced motor will not necessarily gain any extra HP, but it will surely be more efficient at harnessing them throughout the powerband. Power will always come from tuning, so meaning to say that even if you spend a fortune in rebuilding an engine with top dollar Blueprinting work, it will still make less power if not tuned properly.
levin818,
hmmm i still think that the example of testing car in sepang is not very good laaa .. ahahahh coz it involves skill ... so if I put 4.733 final drive into my car and drive into sepang and only got 3min per lap but another person with stock final drive get 2:58min per lap so means the final drive mod I do to my car is ineffective ??? Not sure if japan got dyno which take time into account or if there is any dyno which take time into account .. this one gotta ask william of trial tuning la B)
william,
no gadoh laaa .. just healthy discussion maaaaa .. never discussion .. never argue how to learn maaaa ... B)
ae80typeD,
aijoooooooooooooooooooo like this also not so good liao coz tyre pressure ..tyre compound ... clutch material all come into play liao ... hahahahhahaa if using "butt dyno" laaaaaaaaaa
Actually some of you missing the point of this post la. This post never ask about "DYNO TUNE" ... just asking about reading a dyno graph ... can it be the ULTIMATE measurement tool ... especially with the mods I have listed which does not 100% show it's performance gains on a dyno .. so if it does not 100% show on dyno then what is the best way to measure it ?!?!
If you all wanna talk about dyno tuning vs butt tuning vs bawak pokok tuning start new thread la then we can continue there <_< :P :D :lol:
hmmm i still think that the example of testing car in sepang is not very good laaa .. ahahahh coz it involves skill ... so if I put 4.733 final drive into my car and drive into sepang and only got 3min per lap but another person with stock final drive get 2:58min per lap so means the final drive mod I do to my car is ineffective ??? Not sure if japan got dyno which take time into account or if there is any dyno which take time into account .. this one gotta ask william of trial tuning la B)
william,
no gadoh laaa .. just healthy discussion maaaaa .. never discussion .. never argue how to learn maaaa ... B)
ae80typeD,
aijoooooooooooooooooooo like this also not so good liao coz tyre pressure ..tyre compound ... clutch material all come into play liao ... hahahahhahaa if using "butt dyno" laaaaaaaaaa
Actually some of you missing the point of this post la. This post never ask about "DYNO TUNE" ... just asking about reading a dyno graph ... can it be the ULTIMATE measurement tool ... especially with the mods I have listed which does not 100% show it's performance gains on a dyno .. so if it does not 100% show on dyno then what is the best way to measure it ?!?!
If you all wanna talk about dyno tuning vs butt tuning vs bawak pokok tuning start new thread la then we can continue there <_< :P :D :lol:
wahh good discussion..........
IMHO dyno tune is not the ultimate tools..........
road tune and dyno tune is the ultimate...
lighten flywheel and all lighten part will not shown in dyno except maybe if plot againts time.........but traction maybe will showed lar........coz a slip 14" rim will make a bump to dyno graph.....
dont shooott me.... :D
IMHO dyno tune is not the ultimate tools..........
road tune and dyno tune is the ultimate...
lighten flywheel and all lighten part will not shown in dyno except maybe if plot againts time.........but traction maybe will showed lar........coz a slip 14" rim will make a bump to dyno graph.....
dont shooott me.... :D
direct hit! ouch! :lol: kakakakaa
if that is the main question then the answer is, a dyno chart or dyno machine is not the ultimate measurement tool for some mods, but is the ultimate measuring tool for horsepower-related upgrades/tweaks!
is it THE ultimate measuring tool (for everything)? NO.
is it the RIGHT tool for measuring certain mods? YES.
is it the RIGHT tool for measuring the mods u listed so far? NO.
so then is it unsuitable (not implying unusable) tool for measuring a few certain stuff? YES.
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