> b16a

[akuma]

yeah lar...dis thread is abt Bseries only mah....so ur d master lor......
i never like ITB...duno y...heheheh

 

[shiroitenshi]

That's maybe because you never tried a properly tuned one.. but like I said, there is no slow, minimum throttle opening about 20%-30% if compared to single throttle setup. With B16A and it's famously low end power, should help quite a bit.. but minyak = $$$ :P

 

[arturo]

many old masters making comeback...good good

 

[shiroitenshi]

Lol, actually not coming back, just free for a while only.. I thought dcloo still around? I just met him last weekend. Now he is ECU sifoo. :)

 

[arturo]

dcloo? still around but only once in a while. ECU sifu? like E-Tech? almost cromed with him...but $$$ = 0 need to put on hold hheeheh

once in a day oso ok la...not much tech chatter going on nowadays...

 

[are_i]

koolvibration

helo u mention bout b18c block cn only get 83mm max piston size kn. wht bout if i resleve the block can i put bigger piston after tht n if can wht is the max size i cn put it in

 

[akuma]

shiro,
dat's d darn problem..how many ppl can ACTUALLY tune d darn ITB properly?hahhahha....alot "claim" they can lar...n it remains @ claim only lor.....i oso claim i can fly..hahaahahha
n wait....frm my understanding,ITB set up can actually help 2 overcome B16A's lack of low end power?aiksss??coz all dis while,i was told ITB will ekcerly lookse low end power but gain in mid to upper rpm range...hence dat's y usually only drag kakis use 'em...dis is was i was told ler..n i tot it's true coz i c ITB most of d time in drag cars,never in a track-oriented car....
pls enlighten me.....
n so,ur saying running d ITB is almost similiar like running w super/hyper single clutch(klac loceng)?it's either 0 or all out..nothg in d middle,yes?

 

[shiroitenshi]

no, not really.. depend on the ITB setup. got long runner and short runner. Long runner, you are right on that point, that low end suffers. but with tuning, not so much. Air flow suffers in the low end, just have to decrease fuel on the fuelling maps,

The ITB i did was short runner setup. and what i mean by it helps low end is that it's not actually increase power, but more like it makes it seem that way.. because if you press only 10%, the total surface area of the ITB throttle ports makes it seem like you opened the throttle area more than 10% (more throttle = faster la)

The low throttle/high load fuelling also quite a bit more than single throttle setup, which is sort of proof how the ITB allows more air in at low throttle openings.

I think one thing why ITB is not so popular because it's difficult to tune.. each time want to set idle speed, not one screw on TB, but 4! and have to balance it properly too. Loose linkage, idle speed sure kacau, and have to rebalance all the four ports. Lol. that's why you don't usually see an ITB on honda idling like Toyota AE engines (but it is doable, since I did achieve that kind of idling) The key is just adjusting the idle screw and balancing the ports.

With 68+mm TB available now and huge plenums, not much point putting in ITBs.
ITBs also more likely to ingest sand and dust into engine.

---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------

koolvibration

helo u mention bout b18c block cn only get 83mm max piston size kn. wht bout if i resleve the block can i put bigger piston after tht n if can wht is the max size i cn put it in

if iron liners, can even put in 85mm (cough ERL does it cough)

If you press in liners, there is a risk of block cracking, so it's better to buy already prepped ones. I think Golden Eagle cheaper now thanks to the 3.1USD to RM1 exchange.

but these are not for daily drivers, this is more close towards competition setup already.

Personally, I don't think sleeving is necessary unless you want to go extreme bore or turbo, but that's just my opinion. Never had issues with 85-86mm bore on B20 and 82mm on B18c. THe 82mm B18c still running after 3 years lol.

 

[akuma]

i've heard ppl saying,running 2 individual 1" exos piping is actually bigger thn a lone 2" exos piping...so basically,running ITB is all abt having more throttle,whc leads 2 more air + fuel being burned,right?
but thn again,my mechanic always reminded me dat bigger not does not always equate 2 better,coz everytime i haf d itch 2 get d S2 or Super90(68/70mm) TB,he'll advice me against it...unless i oredy haf 200whp,he say der's no point in getting those bigger TBs n i might even suffer power loss.....dat's y i'm abit skeptical whn u mentioned dat running ITB can help in B16A's infamous low end power?now dis is really interesting.....
but of course i'm not questioning ur experience,just dat dis r new 2 me.....n i assume u tuned all ur cars using Hondata,right?i remember u writing a review abt d Hondata back thn...
keep up d good work

 

[shiroitenshi]

i've heard ppl saying,running 2 individual 1" exos piping is actually bigger thn a lone 2" exos piping...so basically,running ITB is all abt having more throttle,whc leads 2 more air + fuel being burned,right?
but thn again,my mechanic always reminded me dat bigger not does not always equate 2 better,coz everytime i haf d itch 2 get d S2 or Super90(68/70mm) TB,he'll advice me against it...unless i oredy haf 200whp,he say der's no point in getting those bigger TBs n i might even suffer power loss.....dat's y i'm abit skeptical whn u mentioned dat running ITB can help in B16A's infamous low end power?now dis is really interesting.....
but of course i'm not questioning ur experience,just dat dis r new 2 me.....n i assume u tuned all ur cars using Hondata,right?i remember u writing a review abt d Hondata back thn...
keep up d good work

He's right, for B16A, the best TB is still the B18CR. or slightly bigger only.

Super90, most cars cannot idle properly 2,0 litres, so so..

The ITB also has many sizes. Do remember that toda actually makes their ITBs for 1.6/1.8, not 2.0 litres... small TB bodies.

if you go too big, yes, power will suffer.

If you/your mechanic willing to try, do remember that the ITBs can start with standard ECU.. but must have IACV and ITBs idle screws properly set, don't forget that if you use the throttle adjustment screw instead of the idle setting screws, you need to reset the TPS, so avoid doing that unless you need to. And don't forget to set the usual 0.5V TPS at 0% throttle.

Get a DCOE weber vacumm gauge for the idle screws setting (I went and pinjam lol), since shaft driven, should have no problem with linkages. if suspect fuel not enough, increase fuel pressure temporarily at regulator. Try until the car starts.. then only reduce to normal pressure.. the car might rough idle, but it will run.. now start to tune the idle screws. What you want is to balance all four idle screws at your target idle speed.. in this case, about 900-1000 rpm.

Then on to tuning.. start with 3.5 bar fuel press. and drive around slowly.. if you got wideband, this is the time to check if you got lean areas to tune.

If you got access to these stuff, it's an interesting project to play with.. I'm not saying it will increase maximum hp, or gain a lot power, but it will be a fun project for you and your mechanic to try.

It was a fun project for me.. lol.

Would've put it in a B16A if my friend didn't sell his car. :)

BTW, never cut the wires when adapting AE ITB tps to your own.. find a spoilt TPS, take the rear end, make plug harness to the AE TPS. You might want to change back, since your car is daily driven. :)

 

[akuma]

thx 4 sharing so much,tho it certainly sounds fun,but i m quite sure it'll cost alot..d cost of getting a relatively good shape ITB set up alone won b cheap....dun think i m willing 2 spend dat kinda money 2 improve on my lap time in SIC.
n i think my mechanic wud prolly kill me if i bug him 2 tune d ITB.as a matter of fact,i'm not quite sure if he can do it coz i've never seen any of his or his customers car w ITB.
i remember back in d good old days,whn carb is still d norm n EFi is a luxury,tuning a twin carb equipped car alone is helluva headache....n now tuning d ITB is like tuning FOUR carbs,no?hahahahhaa.....
ohhh..btw,i've seen alot of ITB equipped Bseries utilising a black box w alot of hoses connecting it 2 d ITB...wat is dat actually?i was told they help w d idling......

 

[shiroitenshi]

Not sure what you mean..
FICD? (fast idle control valve)
Vacuum log/canister?
(this is where the vacuum from all four ports are collected, so you have vacuum outputs for your brake booster, your fuel regulator, etc.

The FICD/IACV I'm told by most people who did ITBs before is that is it required.

But when I attempted myself, I myself surprised to find that I don't actually need it lol.. had to turn off the IACV error in hondata though. That's why I'm hoping more people try ITBs.. can find out if their experiences are different.

IT's almost a year plus since I did the ITB already the car still running around in Kelantan :)

Yes, setting up ITBs is like tuning carbs.. if your mechanic got this background, shouldn't be too hard for him to try ITB.. lu kasi racun sama dia.. :)

---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------

BTW akuma, have you and your mechanic played with increasing cam overlaps?

 

[akuma]

pardon my ignorance,watta heck is cam overlaps?u mean tuning d cams w adj cam pulleys?my current set up was done on d dyno by d tuner himself....my mechanic did not haf d time 2 do it 4 me.....y?
even if he did,i won know watta heck he's doin coz i'm not familiar w d process n all d calculations,n he seems 2 b quite reluctant 2 reveal his favourite set ups 4 certain certains type of cams/engines....hahahahaha

 

[shiroitenshi]

yeah, cam overlaps. tuning with cam pulleys. I want to know maximum people dare to open the overlap :P usually see maybe +1 or +2 degree increase in overlap sometime even got -1 overlap.. The resulting difference too little.. I want to see people running +3/4 additional overlap on modified cams, with 10,000rpm! :P

 

[akuma]

anoda fella w d obsession to go 10,000rpm,eh?heheheehe

 

[shiroitenshi]

anoda fella w d obsession to go 10,000rpm,eh?heheheehe

I know one MME car that can hit 10,000rpm, B16A, talk to the owner about it, but it seems B16A doesn't need too big an overlap.

Actually did one B18C with 10K rpm already.. 210whp. Too meager too call it impressive, but don't dare open the cam overlap more.

The 300+ hp n/a b series I posted long ago also capable of 10K rpm, but not for long.. exploded already la.

Want to do a lasting 10K setup, with long rods.. but lasting since it's not going to be touching 10K rpm often.. the owner really want the NA high rpm sound. (I told him to go buy a motorcycle lol, but he say he want to do it anyway.)

Told him go K-series, he say he want B-series first, because if he use K series, he will retain it standard.

If me building another engine ah, sure go K.. already got much info on solving K series weak point, esp. the low oil pressure at cams issue. Like the B20B vtec mod only lol. The more things change, the more things stay the same?

Couldn't persuade him to not do another B-series, but he want also.. what to do? Buat saja lah.

 

[akuma]

like wat haf been discussed b4......i too know alot of Bseries dat can do 10,000rpm relatively safe...BUT,wat's d point whn it's not making power @ d range n worst,both power & torque is actually dipping.....so,one is basically stressing d engine & wasting fuel ,no?
if it's d sound ur fren is looking for,shudn't he b looking @ exos + intaje set up?
just my opinion lar....hehehhe..dun shoot me..i'm a driver,not a tuner or engine builder...

 

[shiroitenshi]

like wat haf been discussed b4......i too know alot of Bseries dat can do 10,000rpm relatively safe...BUT,wat's d point whn it's not making power @ d range n worst,both power & torque is actually dipping.....so,one is basically stressing d engine & wasting fuel ,no?
if it's d sound ur fren is looking for,shudn't he b looking @ exos + intaje set up?
just my opinion lar....hehehhe..dun shoot me..i'm a driver,not a tuner or engine builder...

Actually the torque dipping part will always happen at high rpms. That much is a guaranted part.
You can't make more torque out of a smaller engine. I posted last time about reading dyno charts but I guess nobody still understood it.

If you want to make high power B16A, then the idea is to reduce torque losses at high rpm due to air restriction, rotational losses, etc.

To make it simpler, if you look at dyno sheet, the idea of making high horsepower with small cc is to reduce that torque dip after 7.5-8Krpm (standard B16A).. you can't make more torque with a 1.6litres after that.. what you can do is multiply the torque using a smaller Final drive, say, 5.0-4.7FD, and reduce the torque loss. or make bigger torque with 2L. but 2.2+L is the current limit with 95mm cranks and 85 bore

So, when building a high rpm power engine, it's not about making more torque, but making the torque loss less after 8-10K rpm. lightened parts, higher compression, longer duration cams. That's why raising horsepower is as easy as increasing the rpm (remember those days people rev B16A until it blows?) Got reason why they do that, because the car does GO FASTER.... just not for long... lol :P

So it's not about making more torque, but making torque loss smaller.. a lot of people think that for higher hp, you need to raise the torque.. this is not 100% true, since the way you calculate horsepower is also HP = [rpm x T(torque)] x 5252(constant)

Not complex to understand actually, usually I say maths formula, people all pening already. lol.

How turbos increase HP is by increasing torque. And they do that by artificially increasing the engine capacity. 1 bar boost on 2L block = 4 litres N/A power! < in theory, real life means it's not so clear cut.. losses from pushing the turbine means turbo efficiency is about 60-70% only, even less on bigger turbines.. so 1 bar boost on 2L block = 60-70% 4litre N/A power only.

N/A cannot increase torque like turbos, the only way to increase torque is by increasing displacement. but after that limit, we need to play with RPM.. use gear to multiply the torque reaching the road, actually using our hp written on the dyno effectively.

So to get more hp, it's not simply increasing rpm, bam!, instant horsepower... need to mod the FD to get the most out of it too.

So why play N/A? would be a good question. Same reason why supercars rather run N/A engines rather than stuff in big turbo?s. Immediate response. A lot of people keep telling me turbo has no lag... oh really? then why always kena left behind in 300m race against NAs? Of course, after 300m can overtake, but that's not LAG ah? Hehehe.

One more is control...
I think you know what happens to those turbo cars that try to play2 with you at the slow speed corners and suddenly the boost spools up to the max because they keep on/off throttle behind you. :P

It's like the ITBs, discussed it with a lot of people, but in the end when I try myself, get different result lol.. using cams, 11.8 compressioon, idle like standard car lol... even I myself go WTF.. of course, I can also do that loopy idle thing.. simple matter when you got standalone ECU.. :P

So now going to attempt something new, I'm going to degree in the cams myself (of course, the test engine will be my own lah.) so will measure clearances, mock up assembly.) Will attempt more than the usual +2-3 degree adjustment.

Finally got myself an 2000lbs engine stand (enough to support a V8 engine lol.. tersilap buy but NVM, and I forgot that the guy was going to send it over.. when he called, I was like 150kms away, went back to see my parents.) so that's going to help in degreeing the cams on an engine that's out of the car. (this is also to store my spare engine.. dowan to see it on the floor already.. the engine stand also means I can move it around in the storeroom)

The clearances are not so difficult to remember, all mostly must have at least 1-2mm valve to valve, piston to valve, clearance. (since they're forged units) if non-forged, should be 2-3mm at least. So not doing it blindly of course.. will be claying the engine for clearances.

It's okay to critique akuma.. I don't mind.. I prefer people telling me I can't do it for a reason, than say.. "sure can, go do it lah!"

Then see if the I can reduce the risks from that reason they give, or eliminate it altogether.

 

[koolvibration]

shiro....

So the main thing for smaller cc car to (so-called increase torque), is to reduce torque loss during high rpm revving period la. So what are the recommended steps for the (reducing torque loss) processes? could this theory work on b18s?Izzit all depends on the materials used or the tuners?

 

[shiroitenshi]

shiro....

So the main thing for smaller cc car to (so-called increase torque), is to reduce torque loss during high rpm revving period la. So what are the recommended steps for the (reducing torque loss) processes? could this theory work on b18s?Izzit all depends on the materials used or the tuners?

You can't increase torque on small CC, what you can do is increase the horsepower.
B18cs are not really suited for extreme high rpm due to the sideloading they incur because of their rod stroke ratio. It is doable, but the engine won't last long.. so don't expect the 100,000km to be your next overhaul.. it will be less.. depending on how many times you hit 10Krpm. So if only occasional, why not?

That's why B16B is a high revving monster.. with 1.84 r/s ratio, it does 10K rpm like b16A doing 9Krpm.. can last quite a long time.

The main problem with pushing 10K is clearances. If you open up the stock B18c engine, you notice the piston sits about 1mm from the top of deck, so clearance should be enough.. but at high rpms, strange things start to happen... the 138mm rods start to become closer to 139mm.. and suddenly all the clearances measured earlier becomes not enough.

That's why opt for custom rods and pistons, usually push the compression height to the most minimum so can stuff in longer rods. They also less likely to stretch under high rpm.

Last part is the most important part.. The cams.. The tuner simply sets the fuelling and the ignition based on the hp they can get on the dyno.., so if not enough air going in the engine at high rpm, why would they want to add more fuel?

I think people think cams are power makers because most high hp cars use it, but for vtec, even the stock cams (the vtec lobe) are quite high if you start comparing it to mitsus, toyota, etc, so everyone want to use without knowing what it's actually for.

High rpm, the problem with engine breathing appears, resulting in torque loss. So to compensate that, we have to open the intake and exhaust valves longer by using higher duration cams. The thing with doing this is that it also reduces compression of the engine (dynamic compression, not static compression). That's why the higher duration cams require higher compression.. the cams will make the actual compression (dynamic compression) lower than it's static compression.

So if a guy was playing with a B16A, what he would start to do with an adjustable cam pulley is open it by +1 intake -1 exhaust (increasing overlap by +2) and he would see that the torque loss is minimal even after 7.5K. (do note that you have to center the cams on true TDC before playing with the cam pulleys, you forget to do this, I won't take responsibility of you damaging your engine)

If you already got the upgraded valvesprings to rev up to 9K, you should be able to break 170whp, even on standard B16A cams :P

Do note that revving up to 9K requires that you tune the car... non rev cut ecus sometimes just use the same fuelling from 8K rpm straight to 9K, so at 9K, the engine runs lean.