Cefiro Club

[ongteckweng]

hey 0909...welcome...r u the one who i have been emailing? hehe

best if u want piece of mind...send it to TC for full service...should b alright. although its more expensive but its much safer. not many ppl know VQ30DE very well...if u r keen on more economic play...i can intro a TC mech who does part time at home but only available on weekends...

for ATF, use back original...its the best. as for engine oil...i prefer to use fully syn like Q8 (10w-40) as it does help improve FC. actually except engine oil, i would prefer to use original oils for all...

 

[ongteckweng]

Just wondering if I could join you guys. I was an avid car enthusiast, at least until the time I got married about 4 years ago, and have taken a break for quite some time. However, I'm thinking of "indulging" a little again. I have quite some experience in modding. My last ride was a Toyota Celica GT4 Turbo RC sporting 450 bhp.

I have a 9 year old 3.0l A32...bought and rebuilt 3 years ago and kept generally stock. I'm currently thinking of doing some radical surgery but am not quite sure if it will be worth it. Perhaps I could have some of your opinions.

I have been thinking of downgrading to a 2.5l. I have been toying with this idea because of the road tax issue. Basically, the 2.5l motor puts out 186 bhp compared to our 211 bhp. Used in conjunction with a 2.5l gearbox (the gearboxes are identical except for the final drive ratios), there would be no difference at low speeds (torque curves being matched), but there would be some loss of top end. I am thinking of using my original 3.0l gearbox, losing some of that low end torque but maintaining my top end.

I am thinking of a hybrid. Using the intake manifolds, outlet manifolds and gearbox from my 3.0l motor on a 2.5l block. The increased airflow should negate most of the losses in torque at low rpm's whilst maintaining top end performance.

In this situation, I would also be using my 3.0l injectors, MAF and ECU. Will probably need an S-AFC at a minimum to fine tune the MAF but that's not difficult. I suspect these are identical or almost identical anyway.

Coupled with a cold air intake, I'm quite confident of being able to re-tune the motor to above 200 bhp again. The cold air intake alone (the funnel that comes with our intake has been found to be very restrictive) should provide a 10 bhp boost at a minimum and the S-AFC is purported to be able to give you another 10% - 20%.

Ultimately, it all boils down to cost. I have been able to find a 2003 long block off a 2.5l Japan Cefiro for RM 2,400 (I still have friends in the "potong kereta" industry so have little problems finding parts). I estimate workmanship at around RM 1,000. A few parts will have to be changed like water pump, belting, timing chain tensioner (maybe) and lots of rubber parts replaced with silicone. Probably another RM 1,000.

The whole job would cost me around RM 4,500 or so. Calculating the recovery period from road tax savings of RM 1,225 p.a., this would be equivalent to 3.67 years.

Optionally, I could spend RM 1,000 to rebuild the motor as the current motor is not too bad...basically just needs to be reshimmed and I'd probably need to take off the fuel rail as I suspect some minor leakeages. Probably invest in some silicone and construct a cold air intake.

So...what do you think?

Btw. I notice some of you having some problems with your gearboxes. I have a source in Singapore for 2.0l gearboxes. Last time I asked, they were under RM 1,500 per piece. Not sure if the 3.0 gearboxes are available. The difference is in the final drive ratio. i can't remember off-hand but I think the 2.0/2.5/3.0 ratios are 3.67/3.92/4.08. Basically, if you use a 2.0l gearbox on a 3.0l, the gearing would be too aggressive. You'd basically be doing higher rpm's at lower speeds. On the bright side, your torque in traffic would be phenominal. You will definitely burn more fuel. There is not so much diff between the 2.5l and 3.0l. A 2.5l gearbox on a 3.0 l would make it much more responsive. A 3.0l gearbox on a 2.5l would lose you some torque (a tad more draggy at low rpm's) but would improve your top end.

hey defcon1...welcome mate....wow...u r really a car freak...oppps...i meant car enthusiast.

myself, im using VQ25DE from Cefiro Wagon...but i use everything i found from the halfcut except the throttle body (3.0)...u r right about the gear ration between 2.5 n 3.0...but bear in mind...with less torque will result in more FC! as we all know...its call cefiro bcoz its a feilo! hehe...fat n heavy! but if u r frequent traveller (highways n topspeed), then go ahead....

my 2.5 FC its not really bad since I use Q8 fully syn. full tank i am able to clock 400km++ on full city driving (RM110)...not bad considering i am using 18" rims...hehe
but im sure FC its not a matter to since u had have a 450hp monster.

instead of hyrid, why not opt for Unichips? its easy to gain 5 hp n above with the right setup...its easier to tune compare to S-AFC...not many ppl r good at it.

about the costing...it depends how long u plan to keep the car...if more than 4 yrs....its worth it then...easy...
myself, i have invested over rm5k for the engine conversion (including bodyparts etc) and i think its worth it as im not going to sell the car...it does not have any value anyway. what kind of car can u get with rm30k++?? savvy? kelisa?

do join us for TT if u r free next time round...cheers

 

[defcon1]

Hello Ong...thanks for the warm welcome

I think you got it right the first time. "Freak" describes me perfectly.

My first hot rod (circa 20 years ago) was a Toyota Corolla LE 1.3l carburetted. It did 200 kph and spun tyres on it's 3rd gear. Needless to say, I blew that motor within 6 months...over-compression. Converted it back to stock, and sold it... :(

Since then, I've never looked back. My next project was an ambitious rebuild (interior as well as exterior) of an old Honda Accord 1.6l. This one did 230kph (not bad for a modified stock carb). It ran beautifully. Quite by accident, I got the compression ratio and flow of the head correct. I drove that around for 3 years before trading it in for a Wira. I'd just embarked on my career and had to put the hobby away for a while. But I never really left.

8 years ago, I got transfered to Singapore where I first saw the Celica. It was love at first sight. BUT that project cost me a lot of time and money. It took parts from Hong Kong, Australia and the US to complete...not to mention 2.5 years of my spare time. That was an exceptional car. 0 - 100kph in 5.5 secs, top speed of 250 kph (not high considering what some BMW's do, but consider that it was a full time 4WD). I once did the KL-Singapore run in 1 hour 45 mins, inclusive one hasty coffee break.

In 2002 I came home. Had to sell the car...no choice since it had S'pore registration. As I needed a daily driver, I settled on the Cefiro, kept it stock and put my money into my family and house instead. I wasn't getting any younger, and I'd started my family late, so I figured that I had "played" enough...NOT!

Now that things are settling down, I'm getting itchy again. Your car seems to be doing well. FC quite good actually. The thing I respect about the Cefiro is the ECU fuel mapping. If you really calculate it, you will find that it burns just slightly more than a 2.2l cos of the very fine electronic control. The only time it actually burns is when you floor the throttle, and the car goes into "open loop" mode.

I am still considering the 2.5l motor. You are right...what can you get for RM30+ these days, and this car out-does everything in it's current price bracket. If I decide to do the transplant, then I will seriously consider lobbing in a turbo. I estimate that with a small, light pressure turbo - possibly a TO4E-15G or equivalent...easily gotten off an old Saab or an Evo III, I could breach 300 bhp and still retain driveability with acceptable FC. The turbo matching would be important as too big a turbo, and all you will get is lag in the city. The 15G is the perfect size, as I calculate that our VQ motors will need about 500 cfm, and the 15G does about 560 cfm...a little headroom to make sure that it isn't over-worked.

Our VQ motors come already with forged pistons, making light pressure turboing very practical and safe. I estimate that they will withstand 6 - 8 psi easily, with a maximum of about 10 psi with stock internals. Above that, and a thicker head gasket will be needed. Throughout the powerband, our ECU should be able to handle the fuel requirements. A "piggy-back" ECU will be required to handle the injector response at high rpm's when the stock ECU goes into open loop mode, but that would be about it. With light pressure, the turbo would not generate excessive heat.

Anyone interested in doing this as a group? I have already completed the design and am only waiting for an excuse to do it. Usually it would take about RM 4k - 5k to complete such a project. The bulk of the money goes to fabricating custom parts like air and exhaust pipes. Buying as a group, would knock off about 30% of the cost.

Oh ya...does anyone have any experience with after-market bushings for this car?

 

[defcon1]

p.s. I LOVE T/T. When is your next round?

 

[ongteckweng]

wow!! im really impressed dude...didnt even know our VQ engine has forged pistons. well...i would love getting it turbo coz i feel now it lack of torque n lower ends...by fitting a small turbo, i hope to increase those 2....

how long u reckon the customisation will take? rm4k-rm5 its not a cheap price considering no one did this here...i know in the US of A, they use supercharger for VQ series engine...but in thailand, turbo a32s r norm...

what kind of piggy back we r talking here? btw, its not easy to get good condition EVO III's turbo...how about those from VR4? its a lot cheaper...hehe

TT will be comin soon...hehe...as most feilo owners have family...we need to give them sometime to adjust their time...how about 11th of June? plenty of time for them to make themselve available..

 

[defcon1]

Hi Ong,

Remember how our motor is slightly rough when you start it in the morning? It's a different sort of roughness...like as though the pistons are loose. Also, remember that Cefiro's cannot use engine oil that is too light. Shell Synthetic tends to dissapear? That's because forged pistons require slightly more clearance than cast pistons and when the car is cold, they ARE, in fact, loose.

As for torque, a turbo may not be a solution for you. A turbo would have a certain degree of lag. How much lag would depend on the turbo design (flow, turbine and compressor size and weight, etc), the flow potential of the inlet/outlet manifold, downpipes and head and the responsiveness of the motor. As a rule of thumb, the larger the turbo, the greater the lag (more weight in the turbine and compressor wheels). You should expect power to kick in only above 3200 rpm. On the up side...a turbocharger would make you REACH 3200 rpm in half the time or less... :)

The good thing about our VQ's is the short stroke...76.5mm I think. A shorter stroke means a more responsive motor. A more responsive motor means a faster turbo wind-up. You could lower the rpm threshold by installing a smaller turbo. But a small turbo would not hold boost at high rpm's. What would happen would be that your max boost would be achieved from around 3k onwards to maybe 5k...but above that, you'd see your turbo pressure dropping as the motor demands more boost than the turbo could supply. You would also be over-working your turbo and that would shorten it's lifespan significantly.

Turbos for our vehicles would have to be properly matched. I calculate that we would need around 550 cfm for a 3.0l, and 450 cfm for a 2.5l. There are many, many turbo options from scrap cars that have this flow rate with prices ranging from RM200 - RM1600 for a top end ball-bearing Garrett.

The next thing we would need would be a decent intercooler. Since we are running low pressure, there would be no need to have a very large intercooler. The degree of compression is not enough for the charged air to reach the threshold temp of 55 degrees C. In fact, we could run without one, but that would loose us power as you well know, hot air is thinner and holds less O2. I estimate that with the turbo parameters I have indicated, the temp of the charged air at max pressure would be no higher than 53 degrees C. A small IC to lower the temp to the mid-40's would be enough. Lots of IC to pick up again at scrap yards that would fit nicely under our bumper at a few hundred bucks.

At 6 psi, our stock injectors (240 cc/min) and MAF would be up to the task. However, should you aspire to go higher eg. to 10 psi (max for our engines), I would strongly suggest 300ZX injectors (around 360 cc/min) and MAF. I am currently sourcing used ones in Australia. But a new MAF in Aust is around RM900 which is a fraction of Tan Chong's price. I would also suggest hardened head studs and a thicker head gasket to lower the compression ratio, but that would make your car even less responsive at low rpm's.

Finally...piping. For low power applications, there is no real need to have mandrel bends in the exhaust piping. Many turbo experts would disagree with me. The reason mandrel bends are used is to increase the flow rate of exhaust output so as to reduce turbo lag as much as possible and increase turbo efficiency. If you had a 400+ bhp motor and needed to run a huge turbo, I would agree. But a small turbo does not really need much to spin up, and the one-fifth of a second or so that you lose with MUCH cheaper normal exhaust bends is quite bearable...especially when you consider that you probably would have saved about RM1,000 here alone. Oh...and for low boost applications, our stock 2.5" exhaust would suffice so only need to custom make the piping from the 2 downpipes to turbo and back to exhaust tract. I have some pics of the mod I am talking about if you are interested.

For the air intake, mandrel bends are a must. There are sensors all throughout the air intake tract. Uneven flow means less accurate readings going to the ECU, and less air going into the motor. It would also be wise to have a cold air intake. For our cars, the air intake could be led to either the left or right of the engine bay, behind the bumper. I remember reading that every 1 degree C of heat loses you about 2 bhp.

Finally, a supercharger would be nice. But the stillen alternative that I have seen on this site costs USD 4k... :(

Ultimately, to turbo or not to turbo depends on the individual. Driving styles would have to change a little and you have to pay attention to the fluids in your car i.e. oil and water. If it's just a little more torque that you want, a cold air intake, uprated fuel pump (I hear the volvo turbo ones fit and are much higher flow than ours) coupled with a S-AFC would probably suffice. But if you want raw power under all driving conditions...then a turbo would be the way to go.

 

[defcon1]

As for the "piggy back" ECU...at the lower end you have the Apexi S-AFC...and on the other end of the spectrum...the E-Manage Ultimate.

The advantage of the E-Manage (or so I am told) is that you can also program additional injectors. So, instead of changing all your injectors to 300ZX ones, you could just weld additional injector mountings into the manifold and run cheap, small additional injectors for the extra fuel requirements of a big turbo.

Many people used to run just the S-AFC for this kind of mod. I'm thinking of shopping around for a used E-Manage blue.

 

[cgui]

wow defcon ... it is really interesting in reading your detail explanation of turbo charging a VQ series engine ..

I'm 1 of them who is interested in doing this project .. but $$$ is my constrain ... if only i completed my finance with my feilo (bought 2nd hand & still got 6 years loan to go) i would have joined you man ...

anyway .. hope to see u durnig our next TT ..

anyone here going to KLIMs?

 

[brian23]

Hi, im newbie here. driving A33 with original spec. will change my shock next month. that's koni. hope can have a nice discussion with u guys at TT. have a nice day!!

 

[brian23]

KONI vs TITAN

:shocked: Hi, all the senior n sifu. just wondering which shock is better? i just read the previous thread that u guys posted. somebody said TITAN, someone said KONI. pls share ur experience with me. thanks.:regular_smile:

 

[0123]

hi defcon
well i'm interested in adding turbo. but i'm not good with cars :S
so i'll ahve to learn more from u guys hehe XD
besides i'm driving a 2.0L now was driving a 3.0L
so i'm missing the power.

 

[ongteckweng]

new rim...what do u guys think?

hey guys...i am trying out a new rim my friend brought in from Japan. its a 3 piece Enkei rims...looks vip to me lor..hehe

the spec:
18"x8.5JJ front +40
18"x9.5JJ rear +42

its really light considering the size. actual colour was chrome gold but my friend decolour the gold layer n its full chrome now...what do u guys think? my OZ nicer or this one? :confused_smile: but its for sale la...anyone? hehe

how about this?

old 18" OZ...a bit dull if u ask me...haiii...

 

[defcon1]

I like that rim... :) I have 3 pieces of a set of Sebring...lost one in a minor mishap with a trailer a couple of months ago, and cannot find replacement. I think they come off a Japanese 300Z. Was doing 160 kmh at the time...but that's a story for another day... :)

Anyway,...I paid a visit to Titan today. Richard is a very nice man...and very, very knowledgeable. I like the design of his strut very much. Basically, he custom makes REAL long distance sports struts...inverted plunger...so that all the pressure is on the piston and shaft INSIDE the housing. I expect that his design would survive Le Mans...very, very rugged and precise. Build quality is as good as Konis or Gabs but of a much better design. For the price you pay...you get much more than what you would get at a higher price buying a "brand". A few hundred ringgit more than the Konis...I'd get Titan any time. The final advantage is that he can "tune" the strut and spring combi plus they are adjustable height coilovers. And no...he did not bribe me to write this. I'm usually very critical of locally made stuff...since they have a bearing on not only performance but safety. I know a few enthusiasts in Singapore and some competitive racers in Australia who would like to know him very much.

Turbo stuff. Guys...I would be happy to help you retrofit a turbo. BUT remember...it's a long and painful commitment. First, we all have different capacity engines...so the turbochargers selected will have to be different. Also, most of us a working people with limited resources to "waste" on such a project...so, we would have to use second hand parts...gathered off sites such as this, autoworld and lelong as well as some friendly "potong kereta" shops.

Then, there are as many "turbo specialists" as there are shops and enthusiasts. The techniques I use WILL be laughed at by some...called rubbish by others. Personally, most of the so called "performance" shops around only know how to sell...not really much REAL knowledge, and they use their customers cars to test and learn by trial and error. I don't believe in allowing my vehicle to be used as a test bed. Any project I embark on is thoroughly researched, in addition to my own experiences.

Finally, there is the selection of mechanic and tool shops. I've been away from Malaysia too long and all my contacts for machine shops are cold. As for mechanics, I have a few options.

If you think you can survive this project, then we could start a zth project and document it for future reference.

Meanwhile, I have just been offered a brand new HKS Rotrex Supercharger...designed for the 350Z. Friend of mine brought it back from Japan and couldn't fit it into his car. I am seriously considering this alternative but will have to work out the mounting methodology and belting first. Either way, next Saturday, I have an appointment with Richard. I am still trying to decide whether to let him modify my stock springs or to fit on a pair of his coilovers. I might take the cheap alternative for now, since I still have this "forced induction" project as well as considering either an engine transplant or rebuild.

I can't wait to meet up with you guys. Not may REAL enthusiasts around any more...most of them got old (ok...ok...I"M old...but only on the outside... ). And there are even less "hot rodders" left... :sad: With the price of petroleum the way it is, I suspect that we will be the last generation of "hydrocarbon fuel" motor enthusiasts. The next generation will be playing with high torque electric motors and solar chargers...

 

[0123]

hey guys how long will an engine conversion + turbo take?
2weeks? or longer..

 

[defcon1]

Designing the customized piping, mounts etc will take a couple of weeks but only 1 car needs to go in for measurements. Make multiple pieces of each, and for the rest of the cars...the "kits" will be bolt-on. Then, tuning can take from 1 day to 1 week depending on the condition of your engine, motor and type of injector control you put in.

Also depends on the reliability of the mechanic. I've not tried to carry out a project like this in Malaysia for some time so can't really estimate. What I can say is that most mechanics here are pretty damn slow... :(

 

[0123]

hmm cause i'll be back to kl soon
around 9th hopefully can join u guys for TT hehe
then july 20 coming back to melbourne.
hmm oh well see how things go when i go back

 

[defcon1]

Hmmm....Melbourne....Australia is a great source of parts... :D

 

[ongteckweng]

I like that rim... :) I have 3 pieces of a set of Sebring...lost one in a minor mishap with a trailer a couple of months ago, and cannot find replacement. I think they come off a Japanese 300Z. Was doing 160 kmh at the time...but that's a story for another day... :)

Anyway,...I paid a visit to Titan today. Richard is a very nice man...and very, very knowledgeable. I like the design of his strut very much. Basically, he custom makes REAL long distance sports struts...inverted plunger...so that all the pressure is on the piston and shaft INSIDE the housing. I expect that his design would survive Le Mans...very, very rugged and precise. Build quality is as good as Konis or Gabs but of a much better design. For the price you pay...you get much more than what you would get at a higher price buying a "brand". A few hundred ringgit more than the Konis...I'd get Titan any time. The final advantage is that he can "tune" the strut and spring combi plus they are adjustable height coilovers. And no...he did not bribe me to write this. I'm usually very critical of locally made stuff...since they have a bearing on not only performance but safety. I know a few enthusiasts in Singapore and some competitive racers in Australia who would like to know him very much.

Turbo stuff. Guys...I would be happy to help you retrofit a turbo. BUT remember...it's a long and painful commitment. First, we all have different capacity engines...so the turbochargers selected will have to be different. Also, most of us a working people with limited resources to "waste" on such a project...so, we would have to use second hand parts...gathered off sites such as this, autoworld and lelong as well as some friendly "potong kereta" shops.

Then, there are as many "turbo specialists" as there are shops and enthusiasts. The techniques I use WILL be laughed at by some...called rubbish by others. Personally, most of the so called "performance" shops around only know how to sell...not really much REAL knowledge, and they use their customers cars to test and learn by trial and error. I don't believe in allowing my vehicle to be used as a test bed. Any project I embark on is thoroughly researched, in addition to my own experiences.

Finally, there is the selection of mechanic and tool shops. I've been away from Malaysia too long and all my contacts for machine shops are cold. As for mechanics, I have a few options.

If you think you can survive this project, then we could start a zth project and document it for future reference.

Meanwhile, I have just been offered a brand new HKS Rotrex Supercharger...designed for the 350Z. Friend of mine brought it back from Japan and couldn't fit it into his car. I am seriously considering this alternative but will have to work out the mounting methodology and belting first. Either way, next Saturday, I have an appointment with Richard. I am still trying to decide whether to let him modify my stock springs or to fit on a pair of his coilovers. I might take the cheap alternative for now, since I still have this "forced induction" project as well as considering either an engine transplant or rebuild.

I can't wait to meet up with you guys. Not may REAL enthusiasts around any more...most of them got old (ok...ok...I"M old...but only on the outside... ). And there are even less "hot rodders" left... :sad: With the price of petroleum the way it is, I suspect that we will be the last generation of "hydrocarbon fuel" motor enthusiasts. The next generation will be playing with high torque electric motors and solar chargers...

defcon...more story on the trailer pls...hehe

well...titan its really worth the money considering the effort n quality uncle richard is giving. just go for it!! why wanna pay 2 times instead of going for the best.

as for rims...i like it as well but im going to find a bigger tyres. currently im using 225/40/18 on all 4 rims n it looks like those japs VIP!!! not practical at all...but my tyres still have 80% threads...really confusing...but will try to sell here 1st. if no buyer, will get it for myself...

ehmm...its a long project really to turbo charge a car....but the supercharger sounds interesting...im sure with some mods..u can fit it into ur VQ engine...after all, its the same series with 350z...how much ur fren got it in Japan?

 

[ongteckweng]

Hmmm....Melbourne....Australia is a great source of parts... :D

agreed...especially wrx stuffs!!! n piggyback

 

[patersonia]

where can convert the 3.0 engine to 2.0 or 2.5c?

halo everybody, i will get my cefiro brougham soonly, bt is A32, i love this car since 7 years ago, bt i cannot afford the price when it is new, bt today, my dream will become true, i will collect my vehicle soonly, could i know which workshop can convert the engine? from 3.0 to 2.0 or 2.5c? the reason is i dont think i can afford the road tax in future, so i just wan to make some research bfr something suddenly happen. thanks everybody......:_: :_: :_: