B16B using B18Cr Block!

[shiroitenshi]

if Kw, then the hp output will be higher.. much higher.

So does it mean that jugbugz could have mistakenly thought hp = kW?

1hp = 0.7 KW.. about there.

130KW = near 190hp oh..

So a Type R making 152Kw would be in excess of 200hp, which sounds about right, if indeed the engine was built.

 

[jugbugz]

New, never been used... it's a bit simple compared to the spoons one, as it required the use of the original crank caps.

http://www.on.rim.or.jp/~ssworks/partslist2.html
The last picture at the bottom.


possibly, but remember that these are track engines, and probably overhauled after ever race.




Well, you need to know a few things about cams, and that they move the peak engine flow point higher (which affects where the peak power is generated. And they do this in conjuction with exhaust mods like porting the exhaust port, extractor design, and possibly other tricks I've never heard of.

B16A cams generate 3-3.5K rpm peak flow at low cam, and about 6K-6.5 at high.. (this can be played with to a certain extent, but that's another story)

For high duration cams (this is an example from a C2 cam at factory specs, this is usually at 4-4.5 low, and about 7.7.5K high) header design, I think... So far, this is a project in progress as well. Which is why some cams need higher VTEC crossover, because they don't make power in the same places as the stock cam.


Mid range and top end, probably, because the peak flow point is higher than stock, so with proper tune, probably there's power to be made there.

Low end?.. not with higher compression, I think.


Assuming you can get your engine to flow that well to make peak flow at 9+ rpm.. is there a point of having 10K rpm? Spec B cams I think makes power at 7.5-8K, but this is dependent on head porting and other factors mentioned previously (whether it is done or not, and how well it is done)

Spec C cams.. I think the stock timings is also around there, but since someone has made theirs make peak flow point at 9K+ in conjuction with cam timing adjustments, and porting, well.. kind of depends on what other mods you complement it with, I guess.

In reality, there is no one part/mod that works well without another part/mod that complements it.. So in the end, add one part, see if it makes power, if it doesn't, discuss about it, and find out the bottleneck. Initial knowledge helps to prevent buying stuff that is too big or small for the target application.

Very good advice there... compliments...

I got some cam testing information from this website... It includes Jun, Skunk, Toda, Spoon, Stock, etc etc.

Seems like Spec B will make it all the way to 8800-9k rpm. 10k rpm is just a cool impression to have i guess... ;)
Buddyclub has cams that creates 1 powerband throughout the revs, so you don't feel any kick. I don't know how these perform though.

I do want to install a block brace so that engine will roll much smoother and make more power at top end.

What you said about tuning is very true, I also did hear one time someone engages the Vtec on their B18C at 7000rpm+, he got so much S*** from other members on the forum... LOL I've also seen K series which made massive gains by engaging Vtec from 3500-4000rpm.

I think I'll just stay 1.6 and tuned it up real good.

 

[jugbugz]

As for dyno figures, no its in HP figures on a stock K20A.

It's really normal nowadays to hear crazy fugures all over the world. My 270rwhp E46 is actually 300rwhp in US. I've heard of DC2R stock making 120hp at the wheels as well. It depends on the dyno and location. I know US figures show approx 15% drivetrain loss on dyno, but overhere in AUS it's 25% minimum. I've seen stock 400hp V8's making only 300whp, which is about 25% difference.

This arguement between US figures and AUS figure has been raging on for years and has been lefted. No one in US could calculate/understand how a certain e36 M3 made a 12.9sec 1/4 pass with only 260hp at the wheels in AUS. All of them in US had 300+whp in order to do that. Dyno figures don't tell everything, just a measuring tool for mods. I'm sure that our 150 whp cars is just as fast as your 180whp cars.

oh, btw, do you know the stock compression figures per cylinder on a B16B? Is it about 200psi?

 

[hattech-v]

b16b stock compression about 220psi.

 

[jugbugz]

b16b stock compression about 220psi.

Last time, I didn't know my valve cover seals were not sealed properly and I had totally forgot about the 4 O seals where the plugs go. I did a compression test and I only got 200psi. Would the O seals and valve cover seals have caused any mis readings? There wasn't any leakage during the compression test. But I figured these numbers are a bit low.

Also if your pistons are worned, would there be signs of leakage?

I might have to redo the compression test.

 

[shiroitenshi]

Last time, I didn't know my valve cover seals were not sealed properly and I had totally forgot about the 4 O seals where the plugs go. I did a compression test and I only got 200psi. Would the O seals and valve cover seals have caused any mis readings? There wasn't any leakage during the compression test. But I figured these numbers are a bit low.

Also if your pistons are worned, would there be signs of leakage?

I might have to redo the compression test.

A leakdown test would be a better method, as it tests exactly where the leakage occurs in the stroke, if it's a scored bore or something.. a bit too lengthy to explain, so I suggest google.

I'm not sure what B16A compression numbers are, but mine is 215-195.. heh.. :P.. one of the cylinders not sealing properly already.

 

[jugbugz]

A leakdown test would be a better method, as it tests exactly where the leakage occurs in the stroke, if it's a scored bore or something.. a bit too lengthy to explain, so I suggest google.

I'm not sure what B16A compression numbers are, but mine is 215-195.. heh.. :P.. one of the cylinders not sealing properly already.

If I was to replace the pistons and rings etc, should I get the 81.25mm CTR pistons for my set up or something with more compression? Which pistons for 1.8 and 1.6.

We here have 98 octane available and 100 octane soon... Melbourne and sydney already has 100 octane :/

 

[shiroitenshi]

due to the difference is swept volume of a B18 vs. a B16, compression will vary.

if you plonk in a B16B piston in a B18c, you will get higher compression than a B18C piston.

if you plonk in a B18C piston in a b16B stock block, you will get less compression (assuming other factors like piston to deck height is a constant.)

 

[jugbugz]

due to the difference is swept volume of a B18 vs. a B16, compression will vary.

if you plonk in a B16B piston in a B18c, you will get higher compression than a B18C piston.

if you plonk in a B18C piston in a b16B stock block, you will get less compression (assuming other factors like piston to deck height is a constant.)

To solve the compression problem, I'll just replace my stock pistons.

What size is a good piston for tuning the B16B? I'll be using Spec B cams or maybe Spec C depending on whats needed.

 

[shiroitenshi]

size? they're both 81mm, the B16A/B/B18C. So I don't understand the question.

Spec B or C depends on where you want to make peak power.

Ask a guy with a similar setup and see where he makes his torque (dyno chart), and then compare it to a B16B baseline torque curve, and from there you can have an idea what the cam does.

 

[J101]

i have not seen a leakdown test in real life. what equipment do that use around here by the way? so far i have seen snap-on has the leakdown+compression tool.

A leakdown test would be a better method, as it tests exactly where the leakage occurs in the stroke, if it's a scored bore or something.. a bit too lengthy to explain, so I suggest google.

I'm not sure what B16A compression numbers are, but mine is 215-195.. heh.. :P.. one of the cylinders not sealing properly already.

 

[hattech-v]

Last time, I didn't know my valve cover seals were not sealed properly and I had totally forgot about the 4 O seals where the plugs go. I did a compression test and I only got 200psi. Would the O seals and valve cover seals have caused any mis readings? There wasn't any leakage during the compression test. But I figured these numbers are a bit low.

Also if your pistons are worned, would there be signs of leakage?

I might have to redo the compression test.

its nothing to do with any o seal. normally ur compression must be almost same for all 4-cylinders. if got different it must be not more than 15-20psi.

eg.
cyl 1 : 220psi
cyl 2 : 215psi
cyl 3 : 220psi
cyl 4 : 195psi

like the above, ur cylinder 4 got problem. maybe due to ur piston ring or any valve leaking.to solve this u can replace the ring and do the grind valve job. this considering ur combustion chamber area (head) is stock. if u did some pnp job for it, then u might need to do the cc measurement again.

in term of the compression value, as long as u got almost the same value for all 4-cylinders, then it shud be fine.

 

[jugbugz]

size? they're both 81mm, the B16A/B/B18C. So I don't understand the question.

Spec B or C depends on where you want to make peak power.

Ask a guy with a similar setup and see where he makes his torque (dyno chart), and then compare it to a B16B baseline torque curve, and from there you can have an idea what the cam does.

Yes, I mean the stock replacement pistons. You can buy either 81mm or 81.25mm.

I heard that with spec B cams, they will make more power with a compression increase. So would you know what size would be suitable? And from who?

 

[jugbugz]

its nothing to do with any o seal. normally ur compression must be almost same for all 4-cylinders. if got different it must be not more than 15-20psi.

eg.
cyl 1 : 220psi
cyl 2 : 215psi
cyl 3 : 220psi
cyl 4 : 195psi

like the above, ur cylinder 4 got problem. maybe due to ur piston ring or any valve leaking.to solve this u can replace the ring and do the grind valve job. this considering ur combustion chamber area (head) is stock. if u did some pnp job for it, then u might need to do the cc measurement again.

in term of the compression value, as long as u got almost the same value for all 4-cylinders, then it shud be fine.

My results were;

195
195
195
200

I thought these numbers were quite low comparing to other people, but got told that different guages read differently. And my tuner did say it is very high compared to the lowered compression turbo cars which show average of 150psi per cylinder. These numbers are all from his guages. He said there was no signs of air leakage during the test.

So why are my numbers so low? Is it really because of the different guages that everyone uses?

All my numbers are very even and my question is if the pistons have been worned then would the compression drop? So lets say that originally a new B16B has 220psi across all 4cyls and as years pass, would the compression drop across all 4 cyls?

 

[shiroitenshi]

My results were;

195
195
195
200
I thought these numbers were quite low comparing to other people, but got told that different guages read differently. And my tuner did say it is very high compared to the lowered compression turbo cars which show average of 150psi per cylinder. These numbers are all from his guages. He said there was no signs of air leakage during the test.

of course the other cars would show 150psi, they're probably in the region of 8-9 CR. Honda's usually show higher, because they run 10-11CR static CR.

195-200 isn't too shabby, but it also shows that your compression isn't that good already.. the numbers are good if it's for daily drivae use, yes, but power wise suffers a bit. It could be anything, like hattech said, either the piston seal is not so good (leakdown test will show this) or maybe your valve seats are worn.

So why are my numbers so low? Is it really because of the different guages that everyone uses?

No, assuming that the gauges are not of the cheapest variety, they read pretty much the same, assuming the compression scale is the same. psi/kpa/etc.

All my numbers are very even and my question is if the pistons have been worned then would the compression drop? So lets say that originally a new B16B has 220psi across all 4cyls and as years pass, would the compression drop across all 4 cyls?

yes, but pistons don't wear, per se, unless it has seized. The ring does, and that's where one part of the seal comes from, the other, from the valves.

 

[jugbugz]

of course the other cars would show 150psi, they're probably in the region of 8-9 CR. Honda's usually show higher, because they run 10-11CR static CR.

195-200 isn't too shabby, but it also shows that your compression isn't that good already.. the numbers are good if it's for daily drivae use, yes, but power wise suffers a bit. It could be anything, like hattech said, either the piston seal is not so good (leakdown test will show this) or maybe your valve seats are worn.


No, assuming that the gauges are not of the cheapest variety, they read pretty much the same, assuming the compression scale is the same. psi/kpa/etc.



yes, but pistons don't wear, per se, unless it has seized. The ring does, and that's where one part of the seal comes from, the other, from the valves.

hmmm, guess if I'm going to use TODA spec B cams, then I might as well give it more compression with a change of pistons and do the lot with the valves etc. Any off the shelf pistons you recommend for a bit more compression?

 

[hattech-v]

using oversize 81.25mm PCT piston oso can increase ur compression.

 

[suduRed]

u got a new one ka?how much?
but i order stroker kit TODA already la....kekekeke

long time didn`t see ya huh...now playing with toda stuff,peerrrhhh...faster get findtune it and welcome to R&R USJ friday night...pejo b18cR always waiting for you...hahahahah

 

[shiroitenshi]

i have not seen a leakdown test in real life. what equipment do that use around here by the way? so far i have seen snap-on has the leakdown+compression tool.

No special equipment, it's sort of like a modified compression tester.

can DIY one as well.

I'll take pictures once I have the time to do one.

 

[jugbugz]

using oversize 81.25mm PCT piston oso can increase ur compression.

Yes, TODA has between 81mm - 82mm. Which one would suit Spec B cam profile? 82mm increases cc to 1635cc from stock 1595cc. I heard higher compression would give better results from those cams, but how high should I go?

We have 98 octane here, but I always use booster everytime to make 99 -100octane. So fuel is no probs here. 100 octane coming soon :nervous: but already in sydney and melbourne :/