6 speed!!

[minem]

is anybody here using 6speed SVT.. do we really have to change the ecu??

 

[cruiser78]

The Truth on 6 speed?

Ehhh..... 6 speed is for cruising arr??? If i'm not mistaken, C160 got 4.5 final drive while C56 and C52 got 4.3 final drive.

If that is true, 6 speed is made for better acceleration not for high speed cruising. Why am I saying this.. LETS CALCULATE

Imagine our beloved 20V's is running on 3000RPM at the top gear (5th for C52 and C56, 6th for C160)

Given 3000 at crank will divide with the top gear ratio which is 0.815 for C52, C56 and C160 which is

3000/0.815 = 3680.98 ----- this is the speed for the gear shaft

then divide again with final drive ratio which is 4.3 for C52 and C56 while 4.5 for C160 (6 speed)

3680.98/4.3 = 856 RPM ----- this is the speed for our drive shaft and wheel using C52 or C56 transmission



but for C160

3680.98/4.5 = 817 RPM ----- the speed for drive shaft and wheel using C160. We can see it spin a bit slower than C52 and C56

If we use 16 inch wheel with 45 series tyre, at 3000RPM with C56 (or 856 RPM on wheel) an AExxx cruises at 90 km/h, calculated travel speed versus RPM constant value is...

90/856 = 0.105 ---- travel speed constant for C56,C52 and C160 using 16in with 45series tyre

so we get vehicle travel speed for C160 at 3000 RPM is...

817x0.105 = 85.785 km/h

Thats why I doubt about C160 giving better speed than C52 or C56. C160 only closes the ratio between gear but not a good fuel saver.

I think most people will tend to use 6 speeder because it gives better acceleration. Maybe it reaches top power more easily as the engine will feel lighter to rev. I think its better to use a 6 speeder with either C52 or C56 final drive (if it fits)

Bump: The chart given by mr scottwrx if I'm not mistaken is for the C60. That driveline is for 2ZZ-GE which fitted onto Celicas'. See the right side of the chart which states final drive 4.5 while the 6th gear is 0.725. The C160 is using 0.815 final drive with 4.5 final drive

Can we fit C60 to 4A-GE. Do we need to change the bell housing? Will our 4A-GE have enough torque to fight travel resistance (air resistance, road surface condition, unsprung weight, inertia, etc)?

 

[muzhaffar]

is anybody here using 6speed SVT.. do we really have to change the ecu??

I think don't need to change the ecu.
can plug n play

Bump:

Ehhh..... 6 speed is for cruising arr??? If i'm not mistaken, C160 got 4.5 final drive while C56 and C52 got 4.3 final drive.

If that is true, 6 speed is made for better acceleration not for high speed cruising. Why am I saying this.. LETS CALCULATE

Imagine our beloved 20V's is running on 3000RPM at the top gear (5th for C52 and C56, 6th for C160)

Given 3000 at crank will divide with the top gear ratio which is 0.815 for C52, C56 and C160 which is

3000/0.815 = 3680.98 ----- this is the speed for the gear shaft

then divide again with final drive ratio which is 4.3 for C52 and C56 while 4.5 for C160 (6 speed)

3680.98/4.3 = 856 RPM ----- this is the speed for our drive shaft and wheel using C52 or C56 transmission



but for C160

3680.98/4.5 = 817 RPM ----- the speed for drive shaft and wheel using C160. We can see it spin a bit slower than C52 and C56

If we use 16 inch wheel with 45 series tyre, at 3000RPM with C56 (or 856 RPM on wheel) an AExxx cruises at 90 km/h, calculated travel speed versus RPM constant value is...

90/856 = 0.105 ---- travel speed constant for C56,C52 and C160 using 16in with 45series tyre

so we get vehicle travel speed for C160 at 3000 RPM is...

817x0.105 = 85.785 km/h

Thats why I doubt about C160 giving better speed than C52 or C56. C160 only closes the ratio between gear but not a good fuel saver.

I think most people will tend to use 6 speeder because it gives better acceleration. Maybe it reaches top power more easily as the engine will feel lighter to rev. I think its better to use a 6 speeder with either C52 or C56 final drive (if it fits)

Bump: The chart given by mr scottwrx if I'm not mistaken is for the C60. That driveline is for 2ZZ-GE which fitted onto Celicas'. See the right side of the chart which states final drive 4.5 while the 6th gear is 0.725. The C160 is using 0.815 final drive with 4.5 final drive

Can we fit C60 to 4A-GE. Do we need to change the bell housing? Will our 4A-GE have enough torque to fight travel resistance (air resistance, road surface condition, unsprung weight, inertia, etc)?

are you sure that 6 speed and 5 speed gb share the same top gear ratio?

 

[cybtech]

WiiiiKeeeee.......

C52
A 5-Speed Manual Transmission for FWD cars. This will fit most Toyota A series engine [1] Is used in the later mk1 (AW11) MR2.
Gear ratios for this transmission.
1st 3.166
2nd 1.904
3rd 1.31
4th 0.969
5th 0.815
Rvrs 3.25
Final 4.058
Differential GR 3.722

C56
A 5-Speed Manual Transmission for FWD cars.
Gear ratios for this transmission.
1st 3.166
2nd 1.904
3rd 1.392
4th 1.031
5th 0.815
Rvrs 3.250
Final 4.312

C160
A 6-Speed Manual Transmission for FWD cars including an optional limited slip differential. Transmission with identification code ending with 12C are LSD equipped. Code ending with 12A are non-LSD.
Gear ratios for this transmission.
1st 3.166
2nd 2.050
3rd 1.481
4th 1.166
5th 0.916
6th 0.815
Rvrs 3.250
Final 4.529

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission

 

[cruiser78]

I think it has the same gear ratio as I read about it from Internet which is 0.815.
For better confirmation, I think we should test any car fitted with a C160. (See Wikipedia, search for C160)

My method to confirm my gear ratio is either using a good GPS system (GARMIN, FURUNO, LOWRANCE) or using a stopwatch (this method needs an assistant)

Get your car to a flat, straight highway, then, maintain your speed (or your engine speed) for about one kilometer. As you go, record your time using the stopwatch. Know your distance using the distance marker along the highway (highway is better since they mark the distance with 100m range)

Then, using the recorded time, calculate your speed

lets say we take 40 second to travel 1 km, so, 1 km/40 second = 0.025km per second
multiply it with 3600 second (one hour) 0.025x3600 = 90 km per hour.

My engine recorded 90 km/h at 3000 RPM. For better result, do the test for 2 or 3 times as most scientific theory must produce a result with no large difference even tested hundreds of times.

http://trdparts.jp/english/image/m-111-std.jpg

Stock C56 Transmission RPM versus Speed


http://trdparts.jp/english/image/m-111-full-trd.jpg

TRD C56 Transmission RPM versus Speed


http://trdparts.jp/english/image/m-111-mission-trd.jpg

TRD Close Ratio C56 Transmission RPM versus Speed

 

[scottwrx]

bro.. i think even c160 has a higher final drive, but the ratio is generally lower than c56, u can check the top speed at 8100rpm for c160 n c56, u can see than top speed for c160 is higher wor...

Bump: bro.. i think even c160 has a higher final drive, but the ratio is generally lower than c56, u can check the top speed at 8100rpm for c160 n c56, u can see than top speed for c160 is higher wor...

 

[cruiser78]

Higher ratio = lower top speed, better pickup
Lower ratio = high top speed, lower pickup

If..... the C160 have the 0.725 sixth gear and a 4.5 final drive, yes, it will have better top speed than C56.

(3000/0.725)/4.5 = 919 RPM - drive shaft rotation speed

919x0.105 = 96 kmph at 3000 RPM (0.105 is a calculated constant value for 205/45 R16 wheel)

but isn't 0.725 and 4.5 final drive came from Celica's C60? I really don't know la.... Never dismantled C60 or C160 before)

Likewise, C52 and C56 also have lower ratio type which have 3.7 final drive. The C52 came from the turbocharged EP91 (4E-FTE) which have better torque than 4A-GE due to its force inducted system but it have slightly higher top speed (if achieveable) than the 4.3 final drive C56 due to travel resistance....

EK9 B16B Type R which have 4.4 final drive also have better top speed than our AExxx 4A-GE but during highway travel, their engine screams even when traveling at legal highway speed.


Just my theory.... don't have the money to buy and test C160. Way too expensive

Bump: Higher ratio = lower top speed, better pickup
Lower ratio = high top speed, lower pickup

If..... the C160 have the 0.725 sixth gear and a 4.5 final drive, yes, it will have better top speed than C56.

(3000/0.725)/4.5 = 919 RPM - drive shaft rotation speed

919x0.105 = 96 kmph at 3000 RPM (0.105 is a calculated constant value for 205/45 R16 wheel)

but isn't 0.725 and 4.5 final drive came from Celica's C60? I really don't know la.... Never dismantled C60 or C160 before)

Likewise, C52 and C56 also have lower ratio type which have 3.7 final drive. The C52 came from the turbocharged EP91 (4E-FTE) which have better torque than 4A-GE due to its force inducted system but it have slightly higher top speed (if achieveable) than the 4.3 final drive C56 due to travel resistance....

EK9 B16B Type R which have 4.4 final drive also have better top speed than our AExxx 4A-GE but during highway travel, their engine screams even when traveling at legal highway speed.


Just my theory.... don't have the money to buy and test C160. Way too expensive

 

[scottwrx]

hmm... got a mystery now... muahahaha... coz wikipedia says 6th gear is 0.815 which is the same as c56, but i dun think so, if that is the case then on highway, say 120kmh, using c56 will have a lower rev than c160... got few website saying different things.. coz the ratio i got also is from another website that says 6th gear is 0.725...

any sifus can help pointing out?? calling nothing... GB sifu... plz help us here...

Bump: hmm... got a mystery now... muahahaha... coz wikipedia says 6th gear is 0.815 which is the same as c56, but i dun think so, if that is the case then on highway, say 120kmh, using c56 will have a lower rev than c160... got few website saying different things.. coz the ratio i got also is from another website that says 6th gear is 0.725...

any sifus can help pointing out?? calling nothing... GB sifu... plz help us here...

 

[cruiser78]

Yeah that's why I keep wondering why all the craze with 6 speed.....
If anybody can give us an exact figure on rev and speed

Why don't we make a rule... anybody who drive a C56 and C160 can you please post your RPM when driving at 90 km/h*? Is the performance really worth the price (RM2000++ for C160 vs RM500+/- for normal C56)

We need to know the truth and what is perceived as truth.... We can handle the truth....

* 90 km/h is the best speed for any testing, calibration according to Perodua and Proton service person. They test their car for fuel consumption at 90 km/h

 

[scottwrx]

tested 90kmh at slightly below 2750rpm..

Bump: tested 90kmh at slightly below 2750rpm..

 

[cruiser78]

any body else? need more results otherwise confirm that C160 have 0.725 top drive with 4.5 final......

 

[ep91]

i tested ==>100km/j bout 3000>3100 rpm
after research the advantages is
close rotio==>
normal 5 spd change gear will drop till 5600>5700rpm
6 spd will at around 6000(engine power didnt drop tat much so power din lost so much)
also the gear more ringan==>easier to rev till end
greater torque

driving experience/fuel consumption
result of lighter gear easier to drive actually compare 5 spd
5 speed normal drive condition drive until 3500rmp switch drrop till 2900rmp(tak da power la@ 2900rmp)lol
6 spd u can easily rev up 4000 more

long distance drive when up hill
(from the lighter ratio also)lol
u shift on 6 psd gearbox to 5 th gear the engine sound not so noisy(compare to 5spd gear box u need switch to 4th speed)

result save fuel

can up to 200km/j wit no problem(blh pergi lagi)
faster to reach top speed

its WORTH to buy coz the feeling and the smoother engine result easier to drive(reduce driving stress) best for racing also
LOL
gear ""crack""==>motul oil la(no moree crack) ^^

 

[cybtech]

90kmh hard to see how many RPM,
But mine, 3k RPM touching 100kmh mark (on my 6speed).

 

[seg 7138]

6 speed.6 speed.too many ppl use it...haha....

 

[cruiser78]

So, can we claim that Wikipedia had published wrong numbers? Now that many people have claim the benefit of using 6 speed, maybe 6 speed transmission price will go higher in a short period.

Bump: So, can we claim that Wikipedia had published wrong numbers? Now that many people have claim the benefit of using 6 speed, maybe 6 speed transmission price will go higher in a short period.

 

[pcmoddingmy]

BT 5spd: 5th gear @ 90km/h @ 2800+rpm

 

[km_chew]

Confirmed @ 100kmh only

SVT 6spd : 5th Gear @ 4k rpm | 6th Gear @ 3k rpm

 

[SDO]

my 6 sp 3k rpm go 110km/h wo .....why le ? :hmmmm:

Bump: my 6 sp 3k rpm go 110km/h wo .....why le ? :hmmmm:

 

[n0th1n]

6 speed gear transmission, from what i read and calculate it myself

3.166
2.05
1.481
1.166
0.916
0.725

FD will be 4.529

5th gear @ 4000, with 15 tyres; 104.1km/h
6th gear @ 3000, with 15 tyres; 98.7km/h

if c56,
2800rpm with 15 tyres; 86.0km/h

 

[**full_throttle**]

Hahhah!!! I am using REDLINE... and it just now barely saving my C56 from getting those crank'd sound when i engage gear...

so hahaha!! ^-^ C160... hahahah!!! i think you better use expensive LSD oil for it... because if it get damaged... i don't think you would love the process of going to Wing Hing to buy back those damaged gear... and went through 2x of dismantling the gearbox, and dismantling down from your engine.. that time confirm bantai and hang yourself.. :D

So advice.. ^_^ treat this rare species with special care... that is the one and most important thing... hahha!!!! and btw, 6speed cut my car like hotdogs... and ^_^ it is really fast.. hahaha!!!

but u shift gear also like fuiyo!!! 1.....2...3...4..5...6.... hahahha!!!! fai lan dou r... !!!! confirm will missgear if main chasing time or go belukar main jalan berular. :D hahaha!!!

sifu, couple questions here :

1. Can I use LSD oil for 6spd g/b without lsd ? Is there any long / short effect on the gearbox ?
2. Do you have any info / recommendation where can i overhaul and repair 6spd gearbox ? Same problem with other 6spd user (my 3rd gear syncro broken already- can't engage with 3rd gear). And of course, how much the rough cost for repair it ?

Appreciate for you help.

TQ.