Jun 3 vs TODA C - Durability / maintenance

[J101]

hey chris,
no doubt having a healthy stock block is always the ideal way to go for a street setup. the point i was refering was to have a strong block whereby you dun have to decide so much on camshafts shopping problem. no doubt we do not have proper resleeve machine shop here to help the soft aluminium block but then again with what we have now in reality, i think it should be fine. better forged pistons, rods and crankshaft would save your block in the long run. better compression, lighter rods and balanced crankshaft. with a bit of ACL bearings and good pistons rings, the block should be smoother and less resistance towards wear and tear.

the cost for a headwork and all the complete valve terrain kit is over our head. with a good block setup and pistons plus a low category camshaft kit, the power should be good at street level and daily driven power.

i have to agree on all your said about the daily driven monster. its painful, its tiring and its ridiculous sometimes when you come to think of it. im not turning back tho. haha

J101 - I think it is not necessary to have super duper strong block to achieve high horsepower. I feel as long as the bottom end is healthy like no compression lost or lose pistons or rings, good respected figures can be done matching the right head jobs with the right cams and valvetrain, intake and exhaust. I saw some clips of the Omniman DVD and it does shows and proved this. Yet to get a hold of the copy to watch the full movie. But going to place an order for it from states.

 

[chris2000]

hi J101,

Of course if we can have everything ligthen and forged will be good for the bottom end. Parts are incredibly expensive wor for the bottom end. The last i check a while ago:-

Forged Pistons + rings JE/WISECO/CP RM1950
Forged H-Beam Rods Eagle/Crower RM1650
ARP head studs RM650
Engine Bearing kit RM600
Labour to balance, bore block and install can set you back about RM1500.

That works out about almost RM5k man!!

But have seen this setup on B16A reving to 10k rpm if tune properly. I think its because its balance and forged ligthen parts used reduces the stress at high revs.
Anyone out there with similar stuff care to share with us???

 

[J101]

as i mentioned to chris the strong block would consist of good aftermarket pistons, rods and crankshaft. it can be in any sort of b-series blocks you want. about the headwork, this is something i cant justify as i do not see our local shops producing some airflow(cfm) benchmarking machines to let you see what has been done before and after.

the cost of camshafts nowadays as you know would hit at least 5k or more brand new. abit more of that you can do a stronger block that would last longer.

after seeing too many "explosion" on honda blocks and also the results of creating the "biggest" local stroker kits around, its hightime we should do it the right way.

im thinking of long term and reliability for our daily use with a bit of roar.

Portflow
www.portflow.com

Dart (head and block)
www.dartheads.com

J101, can you please elaborate on strong block? should I go for B16B pistons? what about rods? rod bearings, i think GSR's could do a good job. and sleeves, as long as no bad, deep scratches, and the initial sleeve hone job is still in good condition, then no need to change sleeves, rite? and of course, PnP the head for more airflow ( should be smooth as well ), nice 3 angle valve job ( to ease airflow, so air flows faster : more power rite? ) and smooth out the exhaust port. I've heard that for B16A, no need to widen the exhaust ports too much, just a bit and sharpen up the edges inside the exhaust port for smoother exhaust gas flow, is this right?

 

[J101]

chris
its still cheaper than the jun toys inside the head without the headwork. u can never go wrong with good strong parts. plus a 5k is almost around a short type-r block price, which i prefer to go the below way rather than type-r.

ah c'mon chris, your track days and redline revving might need to think about long running.

ps. omniman was a good guidance but the hytechexhaust system, hondata and also gearing is something they need to say more in the dvd. they also very "secret" one :p

have a good weekend buddy.

hi J101,

Of course if we can have everything ligthen and forged will be good for the bottom end. Parts are incredibly expensive wor for the bottom end. The last i check a while ago:-

Forged Pistons + rings JE/WISECO/CP RM1950
Forged H-Beam Rods Eagle/Crower RM1650
ARP head studs RM650
Engine Bearing kit RM600
Labour to balance, bore block and install can set you back about RM1500.

That works out about almost RM5k man!!

But have seen this setup on B16A reving to 10k rpm if tune properly. I think its because its balance and forged ligthen parts used reduces the stress at high revs.
Anyone out there with similar stuff care to share with us???

 

[ace79]

ah, more details for us noobies! i don't think i can afford forged pistons ( which, Omniman said, is not necessary for road use ) what i learned from the Omniman DVD is, Hytech extractor outlet size was 2.5", looks nice. They used the Hondata ( forgot either S100 or S200 model ) software and chip, if you look carefully at the pc in the DVD while they were setting up, u might learn something there ( i didn't bother ) while gearing - wise, standard B16A 4.4 final gearbox, only changed ATS 3. ( sumthing2, forgot ) 1st gear and 4.785 FD. actually, in Omniman's DVD, I learn a number of things which I never knew bfr! but not applicable lah, since i don't have the tools to do so!

so, from what i gather here ( in with a tight layman's budget in mind ) this is what i suppose, a regular Joe's VTEC ( based on a B16A ) tuning list with a CTR cam :

- CTR cams / valves / valve springs / retainer ( prolly all 2nd hand )
- PnP standard head for more airflow in the intake, smooth out the exhaust exit ports.
- maybe larger injectors, like from B18C or H22A ( 2nd also )
- mod the ori throttle body ( butterfly also change lah ) prolly enlarge it to 64mm ( if can smooth out, like initial inlet say 66mm and final inlet at the entry to the intake manifold at 64mm )
- ARP headstuds ( new )
- GSR rod bearings ( new )
- B16B pistons + rings ( new )
- a custom chip ( like what cipan_supercas is offering )

I think this would costs in the region of between RM7k to RM8k++. Opinions in terms of parts / tuning selection, projected HP / torque ( more midrange ke, max HP ke, best max RPM ke etc ) chris2000, no prob la bro. i just wnat to see and learn, like how to basically fit in cams + valvetrain properly etc...can ah? i belanja teh tarik lah...how? :regular_smile:

 

[soulfly]

unluckily i didn't get the chance to watch Omniman's ...quite a lot of useful stuffs in there.

 

[Mellon@]

ace79,
with CTR piston u r having more compression than stock 16a .....y not take advantage of it n try a stage 1 cams such as spoon, jun 1, toda a or m21 rocket....a custom chip will always be a custom chip....it is good for "that" particular setup...what if u wanted to change ur 4-1 to 4-2-1 or ur gear ratio...u have to custom a chip again!! $$$

why not run a vafc with cipan supercas chip ...in this case u can just play around wit ur vafc ...
since 16a block is a strong block y not tried oversize CTR piston- 81.25 and u might want to look at ur engine oil pump...mayb typeR oil pump brand new...it does not produce HP but it help to save ur engine after u spend some $$$$ on it

just giving some ideas - my .1 sen

 

[chris2000]

J101,

Of course a strong bottom end is a very good investment for reliabilty sake to take high rev punishment.. But on my last engine built for MSS last round, i don't have that kind of budget so got to use my MME spec engine where the regulations does not allow and forged internals except for OEM Honda parts only..

What i was just trying to point out was, the honda head does wonders in increasing horsepower reliabily if done properly. And unfortunately, like what you said about head porting, it is very hard sometimes to justify the performance gains and accuracy on them as there are not many cfm machine available widely. So that is why the guy who ports my head does not go overboard with it, justing porting slightly bigger with improving the flow when vtec kicks in. Other than CNC porting, the rest of the guys are porting by hand just like the Honda gurus does on their Type R head. So experience is very important in doing a good headwork!

Wonder if anyone in Malaysia running Portflow or Dart heads???

 

[J101]

"Wonder if anyone in Malaysia running Portflow or Dart heads???"

so far heads not yet or prolly i didnt see it clearly. blocks yes. visit the next sepang drag battle with your digital camera :)

 

[hattech-v]

"Wonder if anyone in Malaysia running Portflow or Dart heads???"

so far heads not yet or prolly i didnt see it clearly. blocks yes. visit the next sepang drag battle with your digital camera :)

waiting for this.
which car? mind to tell us?

 

[chris2000]

"Wonder if anyone in Malaysia running Portflow or Dart heads???"

so far heads not yet or prolly i didnt see it clearly. blocks yes. visit the next sepang drag battle with your digital camera :)

Ya man, which car is this??? Turbo or NA?? And how do you see the difference between the OEM and DART?? I thought they look exactly the same..

 

[J101]

theres an embossed stamp on the block. its obvious, unless they really wanna shave that thing just to keep quiet. but then again the block is too shiny to be a factory jdm block. group c, honda civic :) god knows how many litres inside it.

 

[hattech-v]

mmm... like this i'm gonna bring kanta pembesar next drag battle... hehe

 

[HanafyEG]

yup, group c honda civic from south..me, J101 and ah loy amoil were there to see the block..nice..these southern guys are really ahead of us here..for those who have money..play US aftermarkets stuff..good and powerful..hehe

 

[hattech-v]

nafy, is that the team with the GE intake aaa? hehe

 

[HanafyEG]

i think its not a Golden Eagle intake..its custom made big aluminium intake manifold..i think it was made by super90 jb...

 

[hattech-v]

emm ic... the next drag battle is a week after F1 rite?

 

[ace79]

ace79,
with CTR piston u r having more compression than stock 16a .....y not take advantage of it n try a stage 1 cams such as spoon, jun 1, toda a or m21 rocket....a custom chip will always be a custom chip....it is good for "that" particular setup...what if u wanted to change ur 4-1 to 4-2-1 or ur gear ratio...u have to custom a chip again!! $$$

why not run a vafc with cipan supercas chip ...in this case u can just play around wit ur vafc ...
since 16a block is a strong block y not tried oversize CTR piston- 81.25 and u might want to look at ur engine oil pump...mayb typeR oil pump brand new...it does not produce HP but it help to save ur engine after u spend some $$$$ on it

just giving some ideas - my .1 sen

ah bro, i have been scouting around to find out the prices for stage 1 - type cams, but to no avail. most tuner shops here decline to sell these so - called low power cams, when it's damn hard to drive around everyday ( my car is a daily driver ) with a high level cams ( means rough idling, i can live with that, but not TOO rough though until i have to blip the throttle to get the car moving from a standstill, malu woh! ) anyway, cipan_supercas chips are not like that ( if i am not wrong ) he'll plug in his laptop and retune the chip to your new specs. it's the best deal around ( and many good references from his customers, and his old man is a sifu in auto racing here in Malaysia, last time did the chips / ECU tuning for ATCC Porsche cars ) and not a bad deal, prolly around RM 1200++ for chip and tuning to your spec, where as a 2nd E - Manage alone is RM 800.00, tk masuk harness and tuning. Wwh, oversize CTR pistons, mean have to re - bore the block ( a bit takut here, dunno any reputable shops in doing this particular mod, and if i do so, prolly have to change to Spoon / Toda thermostat, fan switch, dual core aluminium radiators plus Samco hoses as well, more $$$ ) Type R oil pump? why? flow more oil ke?

 

[HanafyEG]

here's the time table for sepang drag

http://www.malaysiangp.com.my/motorsports/drag/default.asp

 

[hattech-v]

nafy, participating aaa? hehe