Jun 3 vs TODA C - Durability / maintenance

[DC VTEC]

Yup, you're right! The CTR cams being a street cam, are so much more easier to tune. Where else those high lift + duration cams are real hard to set. Hence, you will see many CTR cams engine beat those not properly tune Toda C.

When i 1st fitted the Toda C, it took so long to set to get that sweet spot!! initially throttle respond was bad and no top end.

One more thing i forgot to add, one of the reason i changed from Jun 3 to Toda C was that my Jun 3 intake cam snap and broke into 3 pieces at 6500rpm!! End up with a blown motor..

yes...
experiences mechanic also sometimes cannot tuning the cam in the best way.
but this is not mean this mechanic is bodoh...apa la sifu crower ni...simply2 kata
mechanic bodoh.

 

[Oderf]

this is getting more n more interesting... btw, what about other cams such as spoon, crower (mr crower can elaborate more on this cam i believe) n etc... ?

 

[Johnny_9]

Setting Cams

Hi, just my experience..

I have used both Jun 3 and Toda C on my B18C with ported B16A heads.

Jun 3 - Low to mid-range not fantastic. My vtec crossover point is at 4800rpm. After vtec switch over, the cam will suddenly pull real hard from about 6000rpm all the way to 9000rpm. Throttle respond from 6k to 9k rpm are awesome. I think if set properly on a B16 engine it will pull all the way to 9.5k to 10k no problem, coz on my B18C, the dyno graph showed that peak power was like at 8950rpm, and it was not dropping yet but lift throttle off at 9100rpm already. Idling also a bit problem but still not too rough on slow speed.

Toda C - Compared with Jun 3, it had better low to mid range power, i think due to the higher duration on the smaller lobe. I found it more difficult to set the cams and the idling was a bitch.. difficult to drive daily on street use.. At vtec cross over point, the power delivery is much smoother and it still pulls comfortably to 9k rpms. But it lacked the sudden surge like the Jun 3 at 6k to 9k.

For outright top end power, I feel Jun3 is better than Toda C. But Low to mid rev i feel toda C better.

Now i'm trying to source other cams option from Japan and USA. Looking for cams to test for daily street use that will give more power than the CTR cams yet near stock idle and another set of cams for outright top end power.. Will keep you guys updated when i get whole of a set to test..

......................................................

"difficult set the cams" - you mean dialing the cam timing (advance/retard) or tuning the AFR? :embaressed_smile: :secret:

 

[SePaT]

another thing abt CTR vs ITR .. why was it always the CTR being the most wanted cam compare to the latter.. CTR was merely separated by 2 degrees only but then that one can be easily adjusted with cam pulley ..

can somebody tell me why ctr is more xpensive than itr.. 2 degrees only with diffrent of hundreds of RM.. gosh..

 

[soulfly]

Now i'm trying to source other cams option from Japan and USA. Looking for cams to test for daily street use that will give more power than the CTR cams yet near stock idle and another set of cams for outright top end power.. Will keep you guys updated when i get whole of a set to test..

somebody over Honda-tech actually recommended JUN2/TypeR combo for the most cost effective and best midrange power for street.

JUN Type 2 for the intake, and CTR/ITR for the exhaust.

One more thing i forgot to add, one of the reason i changed from Jun 3 to Toda C was that my Jun 3 intake cam snap and broke into 3 pieces at 6500rpm!! End up with a blown motor..

how did that happened? :shocked:

how is a camshaft supposed to be snapped when it's just rolling, not spinning? That's whack!

JUN Type 3

Int-265 dur. / 12.0mm lift
Exh-265 dur. / 11.5mm lift
Valve Springs to be used: JUN preferred but Port Flow works as well. These cams are wild enough that you should not be using the low 8200rpms rev limit.
Description: Until the Skunk2 Stage 3 this was the best high-end performing cam on the market. The JUN 3 and Toda B were the two fighting out for the top dog when it was just JUN and Toda (ahh the old days). Again, like the Skunk2 Stage 2, not huge midrange but very good gains from 7000rpms all the way to 9000rpms. These cams have stock idle characteristics, thus making them the ultimate street/strip cam. I recommend using JUN cam gears with these cams.

These are the specs for some JUN/Toda cams taken from their website.

Toda Spec A
IN: 220 (6.0) - 295 (12.0) - 240 (9.0)
EX: 220 (5.5) - 285 (12.0) - 240 (8.5)

Toda Spec B
IN: 250 (11.0) - 295 (12.0) - 250 (11.0)
EX: 250 (11.0) - 285 (12.0) - 250 (11.0)

Toda Spec C
IN: 250 (11.0) - 300 (12.5) - 250 (11.0)
EX: 250 (11.0) - 300 (12.5) - 250 (11.0)

JUN Type0
IN: 232 (6.5) - 292 (11.7) - 244 (9.0)
EX: 232 (6.0) - 284 (11.3) - 244 (8.0)

JUN Type1
IN: 240 (5.3) - 300 (10.9) - 256 (8.5)
EX: 260 (8.0) - 300 (10.0) - 244 (4.8)

JUN Type2
IN: 240 (5.3) - 300 (12.0) - 260 (8.0)
EX: 252 (8.0) - 300 (10.9) - 244 (4.8)

JUN Type3
IN: 240 (6.5) - 304 (12.0) - 252 (9.0)
EX: 252 (8.7) - 304 (11.5) - 240 (6.2)


Some camshaft comparisons from http://www.importreview.com:
1. http://www.importreview.com/reviews/JUN3vsTodaB.html
2. http://www.importreview.com/reviews/skunk23todaD.html
3. http://www.importreview.com/reviews/todaVSjun3VStyper.html

JUN cams are supposed to have stock idle characteristic because the lower cam profiles are almost similar to stock cams.

 

[ace79]

Yup, you're right! The CTR cams being a street cam, are so much more easier to tune. Where else those high lift + duration cams are real hard to set. Hence, you will see many CTR cams engine beat those not properly tune Toda C.

When i 1st fitted the Toda C, it took so long to set to get that sweet spot!! initially throttle respond was bad and no top end.

One more thing i forgot to add, one of the reason i changed from Jun 3 to Toda C was that my Jun 3 intake cam snap and broke into 3 pieces at 6500rpm!! End up with a blown motor..

heheh, heard too much about Jun 3 cams snapping...about the Toda C, what do you mean by getting the 'sweet spot'? Cam degreeing, cam timing ( advance / retard ), of air / fuel issues. sheeshh, since CTR is so hot, should have bought those cams last year...chibai! anyway, what kind of gains can you see from CTR cams into B16A ( prolly have the head ported a bit, or maybe go for B18C head instead for more airflow ) say, 155 hp on the wheels possible or not? CTR cams allow more torque / midrange?

 

[ace79]

somebody over Honda-tech actually recommended JUN2/TypeR combo for the most cost effective and best midrange power for street.

JUN Type 2 for the intake, and CTR/ITR for the exhaust.

wah, this type of tuning can costs you plenty of moolah! CTR cams alone, is about RM800 or so. Jun Type 2, cams alone, about RM2k++ : wah, over RM3k! and then, what happen to the CTR intake cam / Jun exhaust cam? buat tiang gol ke? aiyak... :confused_smile: pening, pening...

 

[ace79]

anyway, let's ask tom@zth owner to allow some stickies in Honda's forum, things like these should be compiled and placed as stickies. at least VTEC noobies like myself would have an easier time looking for answers like these.

 

[soulfly]

wah, this type of tuning can costs you plenty of moolah! CTR cams alone, is about RM800 or so. Jun Type 2, cams alone, about RM2k++ : wah, over RM3k! and then, what happen to the CTR intake cam / Jun exhaust cam? buat tiang gol ke? aiyak... :confused_smile: pening, pening...

those american ppl said JUN cams can be bought separately worr :cyclops:

 

[superstreet]

la crower75, those reviews is from US Civic Si forum...but yes, this thread is very interesting. the prob with VTEC is that the power is only at the upper end of the RPM range. would love to have more torque, only then can call our Civics as Time Attack / Track Attack machines. I'm not into drag very much, and a top speed of about 220kph is more than enough for me. It's the higher / improved torque values that I'm after, so that can get higher speeds exiting corners, easy overtaking and fun on 'jln2 cari pasal' sessions ( play2 for fun with other same - minded drivers lah ) I've heard about Toda C's idling and streetability probs. maybe those who got Rocket's M22 cams give a review ( damn good value too, less than RM4k for cams, valves, valve springs and Ti retainers! ).

i love rough idling...:_: but if the non-vtec lobes are too high above stock, we'll lose the low end torque... ayakkk...

 

[WalBro(Apexi)]

i would like to say m22x is the good choice for the price and performance!with life time warranty.i'm nop trying to push my product here.just coment.we have the result in sepang with m22x.

I had tested this 3 cam with ori campulley..jun3,toda c n m22x...
toda c is the best at low n middle range,
jun 3 low n middle ok, n high will be better than toda c
m22x low n middle worst than jun 3 but when vtec engage the power really very good especially at 8k to 10k...i pull until 10k i still feel the power still raising...
really surprise when i got this result.
testes in track car,b16a with gear ratio

 

[crower75]

la crower75, those reviews is from US Civic Si forum...but yes, this thread is very interesting. the prob with VTEC is that the power is only at the upper end of the RPM range. would love to have more torque, only then can call our Civics as Time Attack / Track Attack machines. I'm not into drag very much, and a top speed of about 220kph is more than enough for me. It's the higher / improved torque values that I'm after, so that can get higher speeds exiting corners, easy overtaking and fun on 'jln2 cari pasal' sessions ( play2 for fun with other same - minded drivers lah ) I've heard about Toda C's idling and streetability probs. maybe those who got Rocket's M22 cams give a review ( damn good value too, less than RM4k for cams, valves, valve springs and Ti retainers! ).

yup..........it's from the Si website which I frequent a lot.

If I were to send my car to install cams, I wouldn't send it to a normal service center. I (and presumably all of us) would go to a mech which has experience in installing these parts and ofcourse we'd go for the mechanic who knows how to install AND tune a particular brand of cam. Example, some mech are good with JUN, some are good with TODA. If I were to ask a mech "u biasa pasang TODA and tune TODA cam kan ?" and if the fella says sumthing like "Caaaaaaaannnn waaannnn" or "Wa sudah lama bikin ini punya barang maaa......." or anything simillar like that and if the end result is anything less than satisfactory.......I would call him bodoh.......it's not just a theory.......I have done that before.

 

[udengfahlawi]

if all these comparison between brands also include price for each set then it wud be better...:regular_smile:

 

[crower75]

i would like to say m22x is the good choice for the price and performance!with life time warranty.i'm nop trying to push my product here.just coment.we have the result in sepang with m22x.

I had tested this 3 cam with ori campulley..jun3,toda c n m22x...
toda c is the best at low n middle range,
jun 3 low n middle ok, n high will be better than toda c
m22x low n middle worst than jun 3 but when vtec engage the power really very good especially at 8k to 10k...i pull until 10k i still feel the power still raising...
really surprise when i got this result.
testes in track car,b16a with gear ratio

any particular specs with the gear ratios ??

 

[DC VTEC]

yup..........it's from the Si website which I frequent a lot.

If I were to send my car to install cams, I wouldn't send it to a normal service center. I (and presumably all of us) would go to a mech which has experience in installing these parts and ofcourse we'd go for the mechanic who knows how to install AND tune a particular brand of cam. Example, some mech are good with JUN, some are good with TODA. If I were to ask a mech "u biasa pasang TODA and tune TODA cam kan ?" and if the fella says sumthing like "Caaaaaaaannnn waaannnn" or "Wa sudah lama bikin ini punya barang maaa......." or anything simillar like that and if the end result is anything less than satisfactory.......I would call him bodoh.......it's not just a theory.......I have done that before.

as u wish la beb...mampus tak heran...

 

[zamnov]

Excellent discussion topic!

 

[J101]

the cams itself are too expensive to buy. the type-d valve terrain kit is another mind blowing budget.

Do you know that there is actually TODA Type-D ???

 

[J101]

its more on the overall setup i would say. more goodies in the block and good EMS, the CTRs would suffice. tuner comes 2nd.

ctr with properly tune can tapau toda c... don't trust those advertise spec... higher lift n more duration doesn't mean power... it depends on tuner...

 

[J101]

very good question. its all about the over-hyped and commonly used by customers that made it into a price hike.

another thing abt CTR vs ITR .. why was it always the CTR being the most wanted cam compare to the latter.. CTR was merely separated by 2 degrees only but then that one can be easily adjusted with cam pulley ..

can somebody tell me why ctr is more xpensive than itr.. 2 degrees only with diffrent of hundreds of RM.. gosh..

 

[zamrioo2]

ctr vs jun3... b16a with almost similar setup... 1st n 2nd ctr lead... but 2nd it'll start to overtake due to >9.5k rpm... 3rd jun3 will overtake n lead... 4th same...
ctr vs todaC... almost similar setup too... 1st, 2nd, 3rd ctr lead... if 3rd cant be able to overtake... it'll not... for street daily economical n power driving... ctr is worth... jun3 gud for race...

i really intrested in m22x... but till now nobody malaysian have great result in low, mid n top end compare to jun3 as per omniman claimed... sad...