Upgrade sound system in Kelisa

[eohl79]

Hi guys, been a long time since I lurked around in ZTH forum :)

Was considering to setup a better sound system in my old faithful Kelisa. Was previously running an old Pioneer DEH-P5750MP which I thought sounded great in my car for 10+ years that it served me. Recently the connector on the main unit which interfaces with the detachable face unit got damaged plus the face unit rear plastic latch got broken. Managed to obtain replacement spare parts for it through the local Pioneer disti. Amazing that they still have got parts for a 10+ year old HU. Only thing was part delivery was around 3-4 weeks. After a week+ of waiting for the parts, hands got itchy...

Firstly, I purchased a new old stock entry level Alpine CDE-121 for a reasonable price. DIY installed it and tested it. Basic treble/bass EQ with treble/bass freq band control. Mid/highs were good and clear but bass/low freq sounded like it was crapping out on the speakers somehow... hands got itchy again, bought a Pioneer DEH-X6750BT HU and moved my Alpine to my other Kelisa...

At the same time of getting that Alpine HU, I got a very good deal on a Silent Coat 4-door starter pack kit. Since Kelisa rear 2- doors were small, I got enough sound deadening material for all 4-doors plus some left for the boot hatch. Whole car sounded so silent now! Damn...

After DIY installing the new Pioneer unit, still felt the overall sound was rather lacking despite trying to tune up the system Since it was the bass/low freq that sounded poor, I got myself an 8" underseat active sub and DIY install it... Overall system now sounded better with more bass but not that great. Had to turn on the HPF filter to cutoff at 125Hz to the front/rear speakers. After listening to my system for a week that got me thinking something wasn't right. BTW was using some 10+ year old Kenwood components (forgot what model already...) and another set of Pioneer TS-G1645 speakers.

Then came the next DIY project... replacing old existing speaker wires and checking out the connector pins for connectivity. Bought some new speaker cables to replace the old ones. While opening up my front/rear speakers, found out that the terminal connectors to the speakers had oxidized and was a little loose! No wonder the bass/low frequencies sounded funny! F#@%^&*! Anyway, since already had new speaker cables, might as well replace the old aging cables. This time decided to solder the cables directly to the speaker and heat shrink sleeve the soldered connection. Damn was I amazed the SQ after replacing the cables. Suddenly can hear the bass thumping from the 6.5" speakers, mid and highs sounded way better than before!

Now after close to 2 weeks of listening to my system, hands getting itchy again... Now planning to do the following:
1. Buy some STP sound deadening material to DIY for the firewall, front fenders, trunk and roof. Some extra for the front doors too.
2. Upgrade my old speakers, starting with the Kenwood components. The Kenwood components had decent bass and low end mids. Highs sounded harsh/metallic like. Maybe speakers are old. Likely will replace with Infinity Reference 6500cx speakers. The Infinity Kappas seems expensive and feels it won't do justice on a Kelisa... The Pioneer TS-G1645 speaker would have to go. Mids are good, low freq very weak and highs nothing to shout about. Might just get some better coax speakers - still undecided.
3. Maybe get a Pioneer GM-D8604 class-D amp to power all 4-speakers once I've found a justification to move on from stock HU direct drive to driving it with a power amp. Class-D amp so lesser load on the alternator vs a class AB amp. Also the smaller footprint of a class-D would be more much desirable for a small compact car. SNR and THD of the Pioneer Class-D looks pretty impressive. I guess it all depends on the new set of speaker sensitivity... Also, based on the Pioneer HU manual, it was recommended to use 4-8 Ohm speakers. The Infinity Reference components are definitely below 4 Ohms impedance. Just worried it might cause damage to the HU with long term usage. Or maybe choose some good 4 Ohms high sensitivity speakers.
4. If the new set of speakers can deliver enough bass to my liking, will sell off the active sub. Maybe change from 6.5" rear to a 6x9" to give a little bit better bass? I don't like listening to those deep hard big 12" subs... find it irritating while driving.

Any word of advise sifu, sifus? Got to put some cream to control the ICE itchiness hahaha

 

[Izso]

I've never audited any of those brands so can't comment on the sound. But as long as you're happy with it then all is good.

As for 6x9 for sub, you're doing it wrong buddy. Compared to underseat, the underseat is better. Otherwise a 10" flat JL sub or a musical sub like the Morel subs, Phase Aliante subs will do your system justice. No boom boom, just musical bass. But I personally think if you have a good 12" sub like my JL W6v2, it can be tuned to work without booming bass. Can be very tight.

What amps you using to power your current setup?

 

[eohl79]

Ok, no 6x9" then... no need to bring out the jig saw to cut the rear board haha. I can't put anything in the trunk area as I would need to remove the rear speaker board frm my Kelisa every other week to fit in my MTB or road bike. So that rules out amp/subs at the back. Only decent place would be under the seats.

No amps now. Direct HU driven. Currently listening at volume level 25-32 on my Pioneer HU. Think the max is 63. So am already half way... don't know if I would ever need an amp once I change the speakers and if it would make a difference.

 

[Izso]

Ok, no 6x9" then... no need to bring out the jig saw to cut the rear board haha. I can't put anything in the trunk area as I would need to remove the rear speaker board frm my Kelisa every other week to fit in my MTB or road bike. So that rules out amp/subs at the back. Only decent place would be under the seats.

No amps now. Direct HU driven. Currently listening at volume level 25-32 on my Pioneer HU. Think the max is 63. So am already half way... don't know if I would ever need an amp once I change the speakers and if it would make a difference.

An amp would make a huge difference. But generally the tuning method is :

1. 80% of volume on HU, 0% of gain on the amp
2. Slowly increase amp gain until the speakers are at a comfortable listening level

Since you're using only the HU, ok la for 50% volume (gain).

Btw, did you check you had the correct phase? + on the HU goes to + on the speakers, - to the - on the speaker? Phase makes a huge difference in terms of bass.

And if you have the budget for amps, you can consider the Thai Sands brand amps. They have a tiny footprint and you can easily fit 2 under a Kelisa seat side by side. I actually have a 4-channel I'm considering to sell but still thinking about it.

 

[eohl79]

Yup, checked the phase since I soldered/shrik wrapped the speaker cable between HU harness and speakers. Listening to out of phase speakers is irritating.

How does an amp makes a huge difference?
1. if HU output is clean (sine wave output same as per input), if amp gives out the same shape sine wave at the right frequency/amplitude... should be same right? HU MOSFET driver freq response not linear as amp?
2. Output impedance of HU limited to 4 Ohms vs amplifier capable of driving 2 Ohms?
3. Total harmonic distortion... HU 5% vs amp 4. ??

Can't see the difference an amp can make...

Oh yeah since my current HU has only 2 preouts rated at max 2V, would need to configure both preouts as full range and feed it to the 4 channel amp and use the 4 channel preout to connect to the active subwoofer. Correct? I would think the amp preouts is isolated from the prein-s so would give better signal to the sub vs using a Y RCA cable splitter from one preout right?

 

[Izso]

Yup, checked the phase since I soldered/shrik wrapped the speaker cable between HU harness and speakers. Listening to out of phase speakers is irritating.

How does an amp makes a huge difference?
1. if HU output is clean (sine wave output same as per input), if amp gives out the same shape sine wave at the right frequency/amplitude... should be same right? HU MOSFET driver freq response not linear as amp?
2. Output impedance of HU limited to 4 Ohms vs amplifier capable of driving 2 Ohms?
3. Total harmonic distortion... HU 5% vs amp 4. ??

Can't see the difference an amp can make...

Oh yeah since my current HU has only 2 preouts rated at max 2V, would need to configure both preouts as full range and feed it to the 4 channel amp and use the 4 channel preout to connect to the active subwoofer. Correct? I would think the amp preouts is isolated from the prein-s so would give better signal to the sub vs using a Y RCA cable splitter from one preout right?

Fair points but you're forgetting not all speakers are created equal. What about sensitivity? If your speakers are high sensitivity speakers then an amp probably won't make a difference. But if they are below 90dB I'd say an amp will make a difference.

---------- Post added at 06:56 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------

Anyhow I'm not much of a techie when it comes to this sorta thing. I listen and I just go with the one I like. For my Myvi, adding an amp didn't make a difference in sound quality but it helped with volume la. But for my Dynaudios it sounded way better with an amp and not just any amp, a high powered one. 100W preferred.

 

[eohl79]

Ok thanks Iszo. Looks like I have to try it myself... Scary leh... More i read less i know about this ICE thingy. One thing at a time then. Get a +90db component set then.

 

[vr2turbo]

Like bro. Izso said, never ending the more you get into it.....hahhahhaha

 

[Izso]

Ok thanks Iszo. Looks like I have to try it myself... Scary leh... More i read less i know about this ICE thingy. One thing at a time then. Get a +90db component set then.

There's another thing I remember someone talking about - the cabin design. A perfectly setup system in an Audi will not sound the same in a Camry because of the window reflection, cushion, etc.

That's why I don't really bother about the science of it all. I prefer to get the right impedance, get as much power as I can afford from my amps and just test different speakers until I hear one that I like. Most installers hate me.

My regular guy (ex-cvaudio uptown) knows me well enough and lets me keep the speakers in the car for a week for it to run in and poison me. So far I've only ever been impressed with Dynaudio and Scanspeak. I've heard the Focal BE and utopia range, i'm not particularly impressed with it. Sounds great for vocal music but I don't listen to vocals. I prefer "in-your-face" dynamic sound especially since everything I listen to has lots of bass.

I've seen a few Clarion HXD2's for sale here and was so tempted. But I'm trying to go to the Spotify route and go HU-less. I've been experimenting with putting a Apple-TV in my car. Problem with that is I need an iphone and the Apple-TV needs 2 minutes to startup. Looking for other loss-less methods. Spotify is a bitch and doesn't support a lot of things. Might have to migrate to something else.

 

[eohl79]

After giving it some thought, I decided:
1. Need to do more sound deadening to all my 4 doors, trunk, fender and firewall. Mid bass rattles the door plastics - if I set the HU HPF cutoff at 50Hz/12dB roll off. Setting it higher cures the problem but results in poor low end.
2. Decided to go with Pioneer A-series 6-1/2" comps for the front and 6-1/2" coaxs for the rear. Speakers are 4-ohms, 60W RMS. I like the clarity of Pioneer clean mids to highs. Haven't heard many other speaker brands but so far this sounds good enough for me. Pioneer speaker price seems pretty decent too. Will not be a big load to the small car electrical system if I decided to amp up the speakers from the HU outputs.
3. Drive the speakers with a class-D amp - settle with Re Audio SA50.4. Should be sufficient to drive the speakers at my comfortable hearing level. Could do with a higher power amp but I don't think the car electrical system (battery/alternator) is adequate. Not spectacular SNR/THD vs Pioneer/Alpine class-D amps though, will have to listen to it to see how it goes. Plus point would be small footprint, efficient-enough vs class-AB. Not sure if there is really a need to over rate the amp power (50W max RMS/channel) to the speaker rated 60W RMS power. Will adjust the input gain and check amp output for clipping just to be sure.

No need-la for high end ICE setup for small car

 

[vr2turbo]

Using amp to power speakers already high end to me, because mine using HU to power.....lol

 

[gunnerzz]

Using amp to power speakers already high end to me, because mine using HU to power.....lol

depends on our ear lh.mine with aftermarket hu and speaker is enough already.

like u,once with amp already into the poison territory....the journey is just beginning.

my hu have a sub woofer output but dunno want to install or not.if yes then where to put and still looks standard on the blm.

 

[Izso]

After giving it some thought, I decided:
1. Need to do more sound deadening to all my 4 doors, trunk, fender and firewall. Mid bass rattles the door plastics - if I set the HU HPF cutoff at 50Hz/12dB roll off. Setting it higher cures the problem but results in poor low end.
2. Decided to go with Pioneer A-series 6-1/2" comps for the front and 6-1/2" coaxs for the rear. Speakers are 4-ohms, 60W RMS. I like the clarity of Pioneer clean mids to highs. Haven't heard many other speaker brands but so far this sounds good enough for me. Pioneer speaker price seems pretty decent too. Will not be a big load to the small car electrical system if I decided to amp up the speakers from the HU outputs.
3. Drive the speakers with a class-D amp - settle with Re Audio SA50.4. Should be sufficient to drive the speakers at my comfortable hearing level. Could do with a higher power amp but I don't think the car electrical system (battery/alternator) is adequate. Not spectacular SNR/THD vs Pioneer/Alpine class-D amps though, will have to listen to it to see how it goes. Plus point would be small footprint, efficient-enough vs class-AB. Not sure if there is really a need to over rate the amp power (50W max RMS/channel) to the speaker rated 60W RMS power. Will adjust the input gain and check amp output for clipping just to be sure.

No need-la for high end ICE setup for small car

Ehhh.. I thought you weren't a believer of amps?

 

[eohl79]

Using amp to power speakers already high end to me, because mine using HU to power.....lol

Unker last time I changed my old rear Kenwood components to the new Pioneer A series coaxials. Old speakers decided to die this week. Checked with multimeter and one of it open circuit. Damn... Suddenly new speaker sound so good dy. Powered by HU n no amps! This weekend if have time will take out the front Pioneer G series coax n put in the Pioneer A series components. Ok leh no need to play with all the high end speakers for now la. I am liking the Pioneer A series now. Cheap n sounds very clean n clear. Just that the speaker materials looks cheap la.

Ehhh.. I thought you weren't a believer of amps?

I haven't heard of speakers powered by amps in my car, so no comment... Already have an amp on hand but contemplating if I need to install it. Maybe next week la. Need to go get cables, distribution block, fuses, RCA cables, etc.

---------- Post added at 08:15 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 08:14 AM ----------

depends on our ear lh.mine with aftermarket hu and speaker is enough already.

like u,once with amp already into the poison territory....the journey is just beginning.

my hu have a sub woofer output but dunno want to install or not.if yes then where to put and still looks standard on the blm.

Haha ignorance is bliss eh

 

[vr2turbo]

depends on our ear lh.mine with aftermarket hu and speaker is enough already.

like u,once with amp already into the poison territory....the journey is just beginning.

my hu have a sub woofer output but dunno want to install or not.if yes then where to put and still looks standard on the blm.

In my Hyundai, HU power rear 6.5" two way speakers, front are 6" components, and sub output to under seat 6" active sub.
In VR, HU power rear 6 x 9 two way speakers, front are 4" mid bass and tweeters, and sub out to small amp to drive 8" hanging sub in the boot. My sub magnet is smaller than my 6 x 9 ones....hahhahha

 

[g88]

SQ or RockHead setup ? what kinda of song u place the most ? source from disk or usb ?

overall what is ur BUDGET ?

 

[eohl79]

SQ or RockHead setup ? what kinda of song u place the most ? source from disk or usb ?

overall what is ur BUDGET ?

What kinda song... current pop, rock, alternative. Not too much bass. No dubstep, not rap. Source is USB (MP3 320k). Budget? RM2k ish.

SQ as in audiophile high end kind of SQ? Probably not $$$ exotic kind of setup with time alignment, sound processing and everything. Not SPL as I don't listen too loud. SQL - confused... I just like well defined mids to highs. Punchy lowers but not too hard, thumping loud bass. Rockhead as in heavy metal mids to highs to hear percussion?

Anyway, will stick with the Pioneer R series speakers first, add in amp then see if it makes a difference. Slowly upgrade along the way-la.

Here is what I have now:
HU: Pioneer DEH-X6750BT
Speakers: Front - Pioneer TS-A1605C components, Rear - Pioneer TS-1685S, 8"active underseat sub
* speakers driven by HU now, front/rear 63Hz HPF 12dB roll off, active subs 100Hz LPF 12dB roll off

 

[g88]

What kinda song... current pop, rock, alternative. Not too much bass. No dubstep, not rap. Source is USB (MP3 320k). Budget? RM2k ish.

SQ as in audiophile high end kind of SQ? Probably not $$$ exotic kind of setup with time alignment, sound processing and everything. Not SPL as I don't listen too loud. SQL - confused... I just like well defined mids to highs. Punchy lowers but not too hard, thumping loud bass. Rockhead as in heavy metal mids to highs to hear percussion?

Anyway, will stick with the Pioneer R series speakers first, add in amp then see if it makes a difference. Slowly upgrade along the way-la.

Here is what I have now:
HU: Pioneer DEH-X6750BT
Speakers: Front - Pioneer TS-A1605C components, Rear - Pioneer TS-1685S, 8"active underseat sub
* speakers driven by HU now, front/rear 63Hz HPF 12dB roll off, active subs 100Hz LPF 12dB roll off

Basically you have got everything (or too many thing).

if you play Front and rear, they SHOULD'T sharing SAME settings. If you want a good sound use crossover.(but then you need amp).

My take it set everything to zero, off all the loudness enhancement etc...OFF the sub first...get front and rear WELL calibrated then only look at the sub.

Somehow something tell me your front and rear has 'crash' or duplicated...6-3/4" 2 way front + 6-1/2" 4 ways rear make sound so messy...just basic to basic how many hi low mid you have inside the car....adui...

Sub 100hz is damn hard and uncomfortable...

 

[eohl79]

Basically you have got everything (or too many thing).

if you play Front and rear, they SHOULD'T sharing SAME settings. If you want a good sound use crossover.(but then you need amp).

My take it set everything to zero, off all the loudness enhancement etc...OFF the sub first...get front and rear WELL calibrated then only look at the sub.

Somehow something tell me your front and rear has 'crash' or duplicated...6-3/4" 2 way front + 6-1/2" 4 ways rear make sound so messy...just basic to basic how many hi low mid you have inside the car....adui...

Sub 100hz is damn hard and uncomfortable...

:embarassed:

Thanks for the feedback bro. What should I be having at the rear then eh, or nothing? Also how to correctly tune the front vs rear? Highs in front, low at the back?

 

[Izso]

Wahlau.. dude, you sounded super confident earlier.

Personally I'd do away with the rear or just front bias it. Rear will be there just for rear fill.