JB New Section........ Part 4.....
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whahahahaha..... i think by the time Derek read this email is already too late....
Calvin,
so what is the final conclusion?
so what is the final conclusion?
morning dudes.
No comment on drinking, smoking and clubbing.
No comment on drinking, smoking and clubbing.
Kean,
Is this the one you're reffering to? If my memory serve me right, you can tune ignition timing with this. I just recall it.
http://www.hksusa.com/images_products/L_3109.jpg
The HKS PFC F-CON is a plug-in fuel management system designed to supplement and refine the OEM fuel curve to maintain a proper air/fuel mixture when increasing boost pressure in turbocharged applications. The PFC F-CON optimizes the factory injector pulse width signal by recalibrating information obtained by both the PFC F-CON absolute pressure sensor and the OEM engine control unit (ECU). Each unit is application specific and includes a preprogrammed ROM for a particular performance stage. --- A Fuel Cut Defencer (FCD) is also included in certain PFC F-CON kits to override the factory fuel cutoff. The PFC F-CON offers easy integration via a plug-in vehicle specific wiring harness and a compact pressure sensor. If additional adjustment of the PFC F-CON is needed, fine-tuning can be performed via the plug-in HKS Graphic Control Computer (GCC).
http://www.hksusa.com/images_products/L_1327.jpg
Each of the five points have an adjustment range of 16% rich to 12% lean, in 2% increments. The GCC interpolates, or average between the RPM points of adjustment to ensure a smooth transition of fuel delivery throughout the RPM band.
as u can see, the so call tuning resolution wasnt impressive and limited. So at the price you told me, i don't think worth it at all.
Is this the one you're reffering to? If my memory serve me right, you can tune ignition timing with this. I just recall it.
http://www.hksusa.com/images_products/L_3109.jpg
The HKS PFC F-CON is a plug-in fuel management system designed to supplement and refine the OEM fuel curve to maintain a proper air/fuel mixture when increasing boost pressure in turbocharged applications. The PFC F-CON optimizes the factory injector pulse width signal by recalibrating information obtained by both the PFC F-CON absolute pressure sensor and the OEM engine control unit (ECU). Each unit is application specific and includes a preprogrammed ROM for a particular performance stage. --- A Fuel Cut Defencer (FCD) is also included in certain PFC F-CON kits to override the factory fuel cutoff. The PFC F-CON offers easy integration via a plug-in vehicle specific wiring harness and a compact pressure sensor. If additional adjustment of the PFC F-CON is needed, fine-tuning can be performed via the plug-in HKS Graphic Control Computer (GCC).
http://www.hksusa.com/images_products/L_1327.jpg
Each of the five points have an adjustment range of 16% rich to 12% lean, in 2% increments. The GCC interpolates, or average between the RPM points of adjustment to ensure a smooth transition of fuel delivery throughout the RPM band.
as u can see, the so call tuning resolution wasnt impressive and limited. So at the price you told me, i don't think worth it at all.
Keon,
Good news for you. Read back on the articles that i posted to you, Haltech E6X does support up to 12 cylinders and also providing sequential firing. But if i was not wrong, GTauto did told me before the E6X sequential wasnt real sequential mode. So i guess its Semi sequential. I guess this is also the main reason why haltech E8 highlight about Full Sequential control.
This is what i understand from semi and full. Semi sequential means 2 cylinder's injectors fire at the same time, but only 1 time during the engine cycle. Whereas REAL sequential means only 1 cylinders injectors fire only 1 time during the engine cycle and its only happen at TDC.
Good news for you. Read back on the articles that i posted to you, Haltech E6X does support up to 12 cylinders and also providing sequential firing. But if i was not wrong, GTauto did told me before the E6X sequential wasnt real sequential mode. So i guess its Semi sequential. I guess this is also the main reason why haltech E8 highlight about Full Sequential control.
This is what i understand from semi and full. Semi sequential means 2 cylinder's injectors fire at the same time, but only 1 time during the engine cycle. Whereas REAL sequential means only 1 cylinders injectors fire only 1 time during the engine cycle and its only happen at TDC.
chiefoo.......
TiAL :: Products :: Wastegates ::
http://www.tialmedia.com/images/prodtitle60.jpg
http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wg60.jpg - High temp NiCrFe based alloy is used for valve and 347SS valve housing will offer longer product life compared to competing designs.
- High temperature silicone Nomex reinforced actuator diaphragm.
- 17-7 PH Stainless Steel actuator spring gives consistent pressure at high temperature, resist "relaxing" at temperature to 900F (483C).
- Nitronic 60 Stainless Steel is used for the valve seat, and valve bushing.
- All Stainless Steel hardware.
- Mating weld flanges are 304L
- Color anodized aluminum actuator (Silver, Red, Blue, Purple, Black).
- Flows 330 CFM @ 1psi differential pressure
What's inside the box Included with every Tial V60:
V60 Assembly
V60 Valve Seat
Inlet V-band clamp
Inlet Flange
Outlet V-Band Clamp
Outlet Flange
2 TiAL Air Fittings
http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wg60-2-sm.jpg V-Band Assembly
http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/wg-v60-vb.jpg TiAL V-Band Clamps TiAL Designed V-Band Clamps and Flanges are manufacture in house. Investment cast Stainless steel and cnc machined flanges ensure a secure and pressure tight fit. http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wg44vbands_s.jpg TiAL Racing Valve Stem TiAL's V60 is equipped with the racing valve stem. The Wear Coating is resistant the the corrosive effects of Lead oxide which is present when running leaded racing fuel. http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wgvlvrcr_s.jpg Spring Pressures Selecting WG Springs
http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_60_sp.pdf
http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_60_sp.pdf Available Flanges and Materials 304L Stainless Steel
Replacement Weld Flanges
http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wg44flou_s.jpg Available Finishes Silver
Black
Red
Blue
Purple http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/color-options.jpg Documents http://www.tialmedia.com/images/btn_doc.jpg
TiAL :: Products :: Wastegates ::
http://www.tialmedia.com/images/prodtitle60.jpg
http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wg60.jpg - High temp NiCrFe based alloy is used for valve and 347SS valve housing will offer longer product life compared to competing designs.
- High temperature silicone Nomex reinforced actuator diaphragm.
- 17-7 PH Stainless Steel actuator spring gives consistent pressure at high temperature, resist "relaxing" at temperature to 900F (483C).
- Nitronic 60 Stainless Steel is used for the valve seat, and valve bushing.
- All Stainless Steel hardware.
- Mating weld flanges are 304L
- Color anodized aluminum actuator (Silver, Red, Blue, Purple, Black).
- Flows 330 CFM @ 1psi differential pressure
What's inside the box Included with every Tial V60:
V60 Assembly
V60 Valve Seat
Inlet V-band clamp
Inlet Flange
Outlet V-Band Clamp
Outlet Flange
2 TiAL Air Fittings
http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wg60-2-sm.jpg V-Band Assembly
http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/wg-v60-vb.jpg TiAL V-Band Clamps TiAL Designed V-Band Clamps and Flanges are manufacture in house. Investment cast Stainless steel and cnc machined flanges ensure a secure and pressure tight fit. http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wg44vbands_s.jpg TiAL Racing Valve Stem TiAL's V60 is equipped with the racing valve stem. The Wear Coating is resistant the the corrosive effects of Lead oxide which is present when running leaded racing fuel. http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wgvlvrcr_s.jpg Spring Pressures Selecting WG Springs
http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_60_sp.pdf
http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_60_sp.pdf Available Flanges and Materials 304L Stainless Steel
Replacement Weld Flanges
http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/tial-hw-wg44flou_s.jpg Available Finishes Silver
Black
Red
Blue
Purple http://www.tialmedia.com/p_images/color-options.jpg Documents http://www.tialmedia.com/images/btn_doc.jpg
http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_60_sp.pdf
http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_wginstall.pdf
http://www.tialsport.com/prod_wg_pts.htm http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w3_tial_wginstall.pdf
Technical Drawing
http://www.tialsport.com/prod_wg.htm
I do think this is quite a good articles
About sequential compared to batch.
The most important difference is that a batch fire injection system open the injector at least one time per turn of the crank. Sometimes one time per spark. A sequential system only open the injector once per turn of the cam. If we need 2ms of fuel to bee feed into the cylinder the Sequential system will squirt one 2mS squirt, a normal batch fire system would fire 1 mS squirts and the primitive systems that open the injector for each spark would squirt 0.5mS four times(on four cylinder).
At the other end sequential is also superior. Everyone know that you shouldn't use the injector to more then 80%, this is a bit on the safe side but 90% is a good rule when you can monitor duty. Good injectors can safely do 92-94%. But in any case it's not the duty that is the problem. The injector need a certain time to seat properly, this makes the max duty rpm dependant. Since the injector on a batch fire engine see twice the rpm compared to the one in the sequential system the sequential system will be able to squirt more fuel then the batch fire system through the same injector. The batch fire system will also cause nasty pulsing in the fuel rail, it's not uncommon that a car maxing out its injectors with a batch fire system can manage with only 70-80% duty with sequential injection.
Timed vs. Batch Sequential is a bit of a misnomer. Technically, all EFI systems are sequential in that once all cylinders have been injected, the sequence starts from the beginning again. A better term would be timed, implying that the starting and finishing of the injection pulse is timed with the intake valve opening. The idea behind this is to spray fuel only when airflow in the intake runner is established. This is supposed to mix fuel and air better and reduce manifold wall wetting. The other injection strategy is batch fired where several injectors are triggered simultaneously and not timed to the intake valve open period. In effect, the fuel sits in the runner for a short period of time before the valve opens and the airflow carries the mixture into the cylinder. Some people are dismayed that anyone would use the batch fired method however, there were tens of millions of Bosch and Bosch derivative systems sold in the '60s, '70s, and '80s which worked just fine using batch firing. It is a very well proven concept indeed. The SDS is also a batch fired system. The timed concept was developed mainly for tougher emission laws and EPA cycle testing where much of the cycle is run at low rpm and part throttle, where the time available to inject is long and the injector pulse is short.
Performance Applications
Performance applications are somewhat different from stock applications. Rpms are generally much higher, fuel flow rates are much higher and emissions usually take a back seat to power output. As rpm increases, the amount of time available to inject the fuel decreases. This is true whether the system is timed to valve opening or batch fired. The batch fired system has the advantage of being able to inject fuel for the entire period of crankshaft rotation whereas the timed system technically only has the time available that the air is flowing in the intake runner. This is determined mainly by the camshaft characteristics. On an average performance cam having 220 degrees of intake duration measured at .050 valve lift, the sequential system has only 61% of the time to inject the fuel as the batch fired system. As such, true, timed, sequential systems must have larger injectors fitted for a given hp. It should be remembered that there is little airflow and velocity in the port and runner until the valve is open a fairly significant amount. Starting the injection sequence early and finishing late, partially negates the supposed advantages of timed injection. On a high revving engine, there are only a few milliseconds available to inject before the next cycle begins. On the other side of the coin, with batch fired injection, the amount of time that the fuel sits in the port shortens as rpm increases. In the end, there are no significant differences in top end, wide open throttle, horsepower between batch fired and timed systems. We have also not seen any significant differences in fuel economy between the two strategies. Emissions at part throttle are likely to be better with timed injection as this is what it was developed for. On performance applications, emissions are often not an issue and most engines not equipped with a catalyst will not pass a modern emissions standard anyway.
Complication and Expense
Batch fired EFI systems are far less complicated from a software and hardware standpoint so it stands to reason that they will be less expensive to purchase and easier to program. Timed systems require camshaft timing information for the ECU either derived from a camshaft sensor or a multiple input signal from the crankshaft sensor. Timed systems also require a drive transistor for each injector, a separate trigger wire for each injector, cam timing specs, injector response time specs, cylinder firing order and the software to process the information. The person programming also requires a lot more knowledge on how all these aspects inter-relate to each other and the wiring for the injectors becomes much more complicated. If any of these steps are omitted or misunderstood, the timed system is no longer timed. Additionally, there are some aspects about intake port flow that very few people would have a clue about. You'd really be taking a bunch of guesses about when to start injecting and stop injecting the fuel. Is all this worth the trouble on the average performance/race application for little or no gain in hp? Would YOU understand how to hook up and program a sequential/timed system? I think those questions have already been answered. The batch fired system merely requires a tach frequency. Generally, for each ignition pulse, there is a fuel pulse. There are less wires to run and no complicated timing software to figure out. Very simple and it works very well.
About sequential compared to batch.
The most important difference is that a batch fire injection system open the injector at least one time per turn of the crank. Sometimes one time per spark. A sequential system only open the injector once per turn of the cam. If we need 2ms of fuel to bee feed into the cylinder the Sequential system will squirt one 2mS squirt, a normal batch fire system would fire 1 mS squirts and the primitive systems that open the injector for each spark would squirt 0.5mS four times(on four cylinder).
At the other end sequential is also superior. Everyone know that you shouldn't use the injector to more then 80%, this is a bit on the safe side but 90% is a good rule when you can monitor duty. Good injectors can safely do 92-94%. But in any case it's not the duty that is the problem. The injector need a certain time to seat properly, this makes the max duty rpm dependant. Since the injector on a batch fire engine see twice the rpm compared to the one in the sequential system the sequential system will be able to squirt more fuel then the batch fire system through the same injector. The batch fire system will also cause nasty pulsing in the fuel rail, it's not uncommon that a car maxing out its injectors with a batch fire system can manage with only 70-80% duty with sequential injection.
Timed vs. Batch Sequential is a bit of a misnomer. Technically, all EFI systems are sequential in that once all cylinders have been injected, the sequence starts from the beginning again. A better term would be timed, implying that the starting and finishing of the injection pulse is timed with the intake valve opening. The idea behind this is to spray fuel only when airflow in the intake runner is established. This is supposed to mix fuel and air better and reduce manifold wall wetting. The other injection strategy is batch fired where several injectors are triggered simultaneously and not timed to the intake valve open period. In effect, the fuel sits in the runner for a short period of time before the valve opens and the airflow carries the mixture into the cylinder. Some people are dismayed that anyone would use the batch fired method however, there were tens of millions of Bosch and Bosch derivative systems sold in the '60s, '70s, and '80s which worked just fine using batch firing. It is a very well proven concept indeed. The SDS is also a batch fired system. The timed concept was developed mainly for tougher emission laws and EPA cycle testing where much of the cycle is run at low rpm and part throttle, where the time available to inject is long and the injector pulse is short.
Performance Applications
Performance applications are somewhat different from stock applications. Rpms are generally much higher, fuel flow rates are much higher and emissions usually take a back seat to power output. As rpm increases, the amount of time available to inject the fuel decreases. This is true whether the system is timed to valve opening or batch fired. The batch fired system has the advantage of being able to inject fuel for the entire period of crankshaft rotation whereas the timed system technically only has the time available that the air is flowing in the intake runner. This is determined mainly by the camshaft characteristics. On an average performance cam having 220 degrees of intake duration measured at .050 valve lift, the sequential system has only 61% of the time to inject the fuel as the batch fired system. As such, true, timed, sequential systems must have larger injectors fitted for a given hp. It should be remembered that there is little airflow and velocity in the port and runner until the valve is open a fairly significant amount. Starting the injection sequence early and finishing late, partially negates the supposed advantages of timed injection. On a high revving engine, there are only a few milliseconds available to inject before the next cycle begins. On the other side of the coin, with batch fired injection, the amount of time that the fuel sits in the port shortens as rpm increases. In the end, there are no significant differences in top end, wide open throttle, horsepower between batch fired and timed systems. We have also not seen any significant differences in fuel economy between the two strategies. Emissions at part throttle are likely to be better with timed injection as this is what it was developed for. On performance applications, emissions are often not an issue and most engines not equipped with a catalyst will not pass a modern emissions standard anyway.
Complication and Expense
Batch fired EFI systems are far less complicated from a software and hardware standpoint so it stands to reason that they will be less expensive to purchase and easier to program. Timed systems require camshaft timing information for the ECU either derived from a camshaft sensor or a multiple input signal from the crankshaft sensor. Timed systems also require a drive transistor for each injector, a separate trigger wire for each injector, cam timing specs, injector response time specs, cylinder firing order and the software to process the information. The person programming also requires a lot more knowledge on how all these aspects inter-relate to each other and the wiring for the injectors becomes much more complicated. If any of these steps are omitted or misunderstood, the timed system is no longer timed. Additionally, there are some aspects about intake port flow that very few people would have a clue about. You'd really be taking a bunch of guesses about when to start injecting and stop injecting the fuel. Is all this worth the trouble on the average performance/race application for little or no gain in hp? Would YOU understand how to hook up and program a sequential/timed system? I think those questions have already been answered. The batch fired system merely requires a tach frequency. Generally, for each ignition pulse, there is a fuel pulse. There are less wires to run and no complicated timing software to figure out. Very simple and it works very well.
Last edited:
wahahaha, ash, u wun be seeing me using external wastegate....
Might as well abit tutorial on wideband vs narrowband. Im still stun by why plp keep thinking narrowband is enough for reference.
What is it?
It’s a sensor that sits in your exhaust downpipe and it measures the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gas. From this, the ECU can know if you are running rich or lean. However – this is a “narrow band” sensor, meaning it’s accurate over a small range of air-fuel ratios (AFRs), and these are sited around, brace yourself, the stochiometric AFR. That word is a fancy way of saying “the perfect ratio”. Without going into too much detail, the perfect AFR at idle and cruise is 14.65:1 air :fuel. (Warning – when under power and boost, your AFRs need to be closer to at least 12.5 and more like 11.7 for safety. The narrow band sensor is out of range for this, you’ll need a wideband O2 sensor for tuning)
Why use a wideband? Full throttle tuning only tunes 1/5th to 1/6th of the available map area. Part throttle where you spend most of your driving time and is the most common area for complaints. (poor fuel economy, roughness, stumbling) Very few dynos are capable holding a constant load for part throttle tuning. Dynos do not accurately represent real world conditions like under-hood airflow at speed and RAM air effects. Typically you car will run leaner off the dyno than on by about 3/10ths of a point.
If you are running closed loop and your part throttle fuelling is incorrect, your full throttle fuelling will be affected. Another good reason to tune part throttle correctly.
Using a wideband in on road conditions will enable more accurate fuel tuning. This does not replace dyno tuning, but augments it.
a stock NARROW band O2 sensor can't tell the difference between a little lean versus VERY lean. The voltage difference between 15.5:1 AF (VERY lean and playing with fire aka detonation) and 13.8:1 ( a little lean ).
The same can be said about the stock O2 sensor reading a little rich versus VERY rich. It doesn't show up as huge difference in voltage that goes to the ECU.
This is exactly why your ECU has a separate fuel map program at WOT. The ECU goes into "open loop" (short terma nd longterm smoothing). After the throttle has been mashed down past a certain point, the TPS sends a message to the ECU to stop relying on the stock O2 sensor to determine it's fuel injector opening time ("closed loop" operation) and switch to the previously determined fuel & ignition map programs on the ECU.
A stock O2 sensor can only read 3 things: lean, stoich, rich. It doesn't have the resolution or cannot tell the difference between very lean, lean, and a little lean. This fine resolution is what you need for tuning though...So we go to a WIDE BAND O2 sensor.
Figure 2. A wideband voltage readout versus a heated stock and unheated stock sensor. Widebands have more resolution to help you tune and program the precise and correct amount of fuel to add or take away.
http://www.alamomotorsports.com/graphics/fjo_wbo2chart1.jpg
http://www.hondata.com/techwidebandtuning.html (very good article)
http://www.alamomotorsports.com/products.html?http://www.alamomotorsports.com/fjo_wideband.html
http://g-speed.com/pbh/afr-o2.html
Here in a wideband sensor, the voltage for slightly lean vs very lean shows up and we can tune or adjust the program accordingly to add the correct fuel.
Remember, your stock narrow band O2 sensor is an emissions monitoring tool and not a race monitoring tool.
What is it?
It’s a sensor that sits in your exhaust downpipe and it measures the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gas. From this, the ECU can know if you are running rich or lean. However – this is a “narrow band” sensor, meaning it’s accurate over a small range of air-fuel ratios (AFRs), and these are sited around, brace yourself, the stochiometric AFR. That word is a fancy way of saying “the perfect ratio”. Without going into too much detail, the perfect AFR at idle and cruise is 14.65:1 air :fuel. (Warning – when under power and boost, your AFRs need to be closer to at least 12.5 and more like 11.7 for safety. The narrow band sensor is out of range for this, you’ll need a wideband O2 sensor for tuning)
Why use a wideband? Full throttle tuning only tunes 1/5th to 1/6th of the available map area. Part throttle where you spend most of your driving time and is the most common area for complaints. (poor fuel economy, roughness, stumbling) Very few dynos are capable holding a constant load for part throttle tuning. Dynos do not accurately represent real world conditions like under-hood airflow at speed and RAM air effects. Typically you car will run leaner off the dyno than on by about 3/10ths of a point.
If you are running closed loop and your part throttle fuelling is incorrect, your full throttle fuelling will be affected. Another good reason to tune part throttle correctly.
Using a wideband in on road conditions will enable more accurate fuel tuning. This does not replace dyno tuning, but augments it.
a stock NARROW band O2 sensor can't tell the difference between a little lean versus VERY lean. The voltage difference between 15.5:1 AF (VERY lean and playing with fire aka detonation) and 13.8:1 ( a little lean ).
The same can be said about the stock O2 sensor reading a little rich versus VERY rich. It doesn't show up as huge difference in voltage that goes to the ECU.
This is exactly why your ECU has a separate fuel map program at WOT. The ECU goes into "open loop" (short terma nd longterm smoothing). After the throttle has been mashed down past a certain point, the TPS sends a message to the ECU to stop relying on the stock O2 sensor to determine it's fuel injector opening time ("closed loop" operation) and switch to the previously determined fuel & ignition map programs on the ECU.
A stock O2 sensor can only read 3 things: lean, stoich, rich. It doesn't have the resolution or cannot tell the difference between very lean, lean, and a little lean. This fine resolution is what you need for tuning though...So we go to a WIDE BAND O2 sensor.
Figure 2. A wideband voltage readout versus a heated stock and unheated stock sensor. Widebands have more resolution to help you tune and program the precise and correct amount of fuel to add or take away.
http://www.alamomotorsports.com/graphics/fjo_wbo2chart1.jpg
http://www.hondata.com/techwidebandtuning.html (very good article)
http://www.alamomotorsports.com/products.html?http://www.alamomotorsports.com/fjo_wideband.html
http://g-speed.com/pbh/afr-o2.html
Here in a wideband sensor, the voltage for slightly lean vs very lean shows up and we can tune or adjust the program accordingly to add the correct fuel.
Remember, your stock narrow band O2 sensor is an emissions monitoring tool and not a race monitoring tool.
nah... i dun see the need so i wun go for it.
too many things to read......
dun wanna add headache....
malas la....
wahahahaha
dun wanna add headache....
malas la....
wahahahaha
coolval,
1. yours timer is apexi timer? If the volt is fixed reading and ur O2 is not functioning, very high chances yours was fake unit. Otherwise they do not know whr to tap the wiring from
2. no, it cant be done as in connect it to Turbotimer
1. yours timer is apexi timer? If the volt is fixed reading and ur O2 is not functioning, very high chances yours was fake unit. Otherwise they do not know whr to tap the wiring from
2. no, it cant be done as in connect it to Turbotimer
Last edited:
no wonder u r not making any progress. same like msia gov, moving backwards.
whatever la.....
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