Water Injection & Water-Methanol Injection

[penagihdadih]

thanx to correct me man!! :)

 

[virqai]

in simple word or example,its like we go touge to genting hill...cool and fresh air...high density hidrogen in oxygen...is that right? or what?

 

[speed2horizon]

Touge or tauge, I don't do too often. But I do hill climb and down hill once a while. Something like that. But water injection does not have atmospheric pressure influence altitude effect on oxygen density. And it should be controlled to inject when necessary and not all the time.

 

[Katsumoto]

The simple maths is too simple even for kindergarten kids. U telling me u gonna spray 100cc of water into ur combustion chamber each stroke??

Bro, even 2cc/stroke will cause hydro detonation la... And, injecting water into the chamber does not reduce the cc... It only increases the capacity. Haiz...

I know how methanol works. Infact I've even deal with 4-6 cylinder engines running on pure methanol/ethanol of industrial and racing grades. That I don't need u to teach me.

When ppl are only aiming water injection to cool down the manifold temperature u're telling how good methanol is. Drain out ur fuel tank and plonk in some VP m3, then we can seat down together talking about methanol.

Haiz.....

In addition, from the way u describe and explain abt capacity, and ur 500cc-100cc theory, I have a feeling u either don't really know how engine operates or u don't really know what u are talking... Haha.. Have a nice day dude... Go do some reading.

that why i call simple math , i dont bother even to count how many cc you need to shot inside the engine.

on you statement pls tell everyone how DOES your so call capacity increase ?????

the capacity of engine is already fix .

let make another example , The 4G63 was a 1997 cc version. (85 mm bore x 88 mm stroke)

if you say by using water injection you can increase your engine capacity more then 1997cc

i can chop my head down let you sit

you cannot increase the VOLUME of the engine but using that method , what you do is you change
the density of the air but the amount that is going into the engine is still the same !


i think you cant even know the different in DENSITY and CAPACITY !

---------- Post added at 01:37 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 01:19 AM ----------

what speed2horizon telling is right.. let get this thing straight. water injection is to cooling down the mixture. y it needs to be cooled? simple! because the cooler the petrol and air mixture, the denser it become. when its denser efficiency of each cylinder improves. Water injection does not pouring a cup of water into the chamber, what it does is "misting" inside the intake manifold. Its the same at kedai mamak one when you can chill there at hot blazing afternoon n mist is spraying at you without making your shirt wet. When this applies to a hotter atmosphere such as intake manifold, the mist will quickly evaporate and atomize. By the way the chemical composition of water is hidrogen and oxygen. So oxygen can helps to burn the fuel inside the chamber. theres no such thing that it will makes parts of engine wear quicker. Y i said that? first of all because water and engine oil did not mix therefore it will not affect anything. In before, water injection does not spray directly to the oil pan and water will not even can get though to the oil pan. Take example of your iron, what happen when you spray water to it? quickly evaporates. what happen to your iron? does it build up rust? no rite? same goes in the engine department but with 'anti rust' called engine oil. so where does the theory of makes the engine parts wear quicker?

go do some reading on methanol fuel

when you using water injection , are you very sure that every tiny bit of water will be dissolve during combustion ??????? will there be case the tuner decide the tune a bit wet ???????

The extra water produced also makes the charge rather wet (similar to hydrogen/oxygen combustion engines) and with the formation of acidic products during combustion, the wearing of valves, valve seats and cylinder might be higher than with hydrocarbon burning.

so you engine oil become acid more faster because it was dilute by the acid and water

and where do you get the idea of thinking i m spraying to the oil pan ????

there are something call indirect contact , the mixture will contact with the cylinder wall

the cylinder wall will have a coating of oil , so here the 2 of them meet together.

when the piston move downward excess oil will be scrap by the piston ring and to the oil pan

so polluted oil goes into the oil pan , although the amount maybe VERY VERY LITTLE

try repeat that for 5000km see what will happen to the oil.

 

[AlucarD]

Water injection is a safe way of cooling your engine down if you have say space constraints for a large intercooler or plan to run aggressive boost/timing. It will work for NA and turbo. A water and methanol mixture will not corrode your engine parts or shorten its life. It will not affect your engine oil as well. Water + meth is for purely cooling purpose. The methanol helps the water to vaporize faster. Pure meth on the other hand is adding fuel.

The amount of water/meth being injected the engine is normally controlled and very minute. Remember injectors are rated per minute. You will probably inject for a few seconds only. The resulting mist has to be fine enought to vaporize immediately so you have a cooler charge temps and denser air. More air + cooler temps = more response.

I have logged the AFR and it does not affect it. It will however affect your intake temps and EGT to a certain extent. That's why you should not be using fuel injector where the spray pattern is not fine enought to atomize properly before going into the chambers. You run the risk of the water collecting somewhere and damage the engine. How much fuel and air your engine consume is already determined by the ECU and to some extent sensors in the car. The water/meth is used to cheat the ECU by changing the properties of the incoming air.

When you run high boost or timing and tune the car with water/meth injection. It is even better. You can set the timing, fueling and other parameters with the consideration of the cooler air. Hence ask the ECU to spray less fuel, more timing, higher boost and etc etc. But you run the risk if you run out of water. A knock sensor wiill be great if you run into this problem.

I do not change my engine oil sooner nor noticed and problem with my internal parts or cylinder walls. In fact my mech and myself is very sold on this idea. Recently we took out an engine with water/meth injection installed for many years. Think it was done in 2008. The intake track is very clean. TB, intake and intake valves were in great condition. We didnt even have to clean the valves much Even the piston has less carbon deposits. Mind you owner was using RON95 and a daily driver. This is another great properties about water/meth injection. It steam cleans your engine every time!!

Now this is with water/meth mix. I have no experience with pure meth and do not want to experience it ;)

Please do not expect high power gains with water/meth injection. It is used to suppress knock so you can have better response and more torque. You will feel a small kick when the spray start working sort of like a vtech kick. What I mentioned above is based on experience with some logging of engine parameters, local tuning results and eye witness accounts.... Happy spraying!!

 

[speed2horizon]

that why i call simple math , i dont bother even to count how many cc you need to shot inside the engine.

on you statement pls tell everyone how DOES your so call capacity increase ?????

the capacity of engine is already fix .

let make another example , The 4G63 was a 1997 cc version. (85 mm bore x 88 mm stroke)

if you say by using water injection you can increase your engine capacity more then 1997cc

i can chop my head down let you sit

you cannot increase the VOLUME of the engine but using that method , what you do is you change
the density of the air but the amount that is going into the engine is still the same !


i think you cant even know the different in DENSITY and CAPACITY !

---------- Post added at 01:37 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 01:19 AM ----------




go do some reading on methanol fuel

when you using water injection , are you very sure that every tiny bit of water will be dissolve during combustion ??????? will there be case the tuner decide the tune a bit wet ???????

The extra water produced also makes the charge rather wet (similar to hydrogen/oxygen combustion engines) and with the formation of acidic products during combustion, the wearing of valves, valve seats and cylinder might be higher than with hydrocarbon burning.

so you engine oil become acid more faster because it was dilute by the acid and water

and where do you get the idea of thinking i m spraying to the oil pan ????

there are something call indirect contact , the mixture will contact with the cylinder wall

the cylinder wall will have a coating of oil , so here the 2 of them meet together.

when the piston move downward excess oil will be scrap by the piston ring and to the oil pan

so polluted oil goes into the oil pan , although the amount maybe VERY VERY LITTLE

try repeat that for 5000km see what will happen to the oil.

Sorry, typo error... It's compression ratio... Hehe...

BTW, didn't we all understood that when we talk abt water injection, it's supposed to be distilled water???

 

[penagihdadih]

nice explanation mr AlucarD.

 

[speed2horizon]

Water injection is a safe way of cooling your engine down if you have say space constraints for a large intercooler or plan to run aggressive boost/timing. It will work for NA and turbo. A water and methanol mixture will not corrode your engine parts or shorten its life. It will not affect your engine oil as well. Water + meth is for purely cooling purpose. The methanol helps the water to vaporize faster. Pure meth on the other hand is adding fuel.

The amount of water/meth being injected the engine is normally controlled and very minute. Remember injectors are rated per minute. You will probably inject for a few seconds only. The resulting mist has to be fine enought to vaporize immediately so you have a cooler charge temps and denser air. More air + cooler temps = more response.

I have logged the AFR and it does not affect it. It will however affect your intake temps and EGT to a certain extent. That's why you should not be using fuel injector where the spray pattern is not fine enought to atomize properly before going into the chambers. You run the risk of the water collecting somewhere and damage the engine. How much fuel and air your engine consume is already determined by the ECU and to some extent sensors in the car. The water/meth is used to cheat the ECU by changing the properties of the incoming air.

When you run high boost or timing and tune the car with water/meth injection. It is even better. You can set the timing, fueling and other parameters with the consideration of the cooler air. Hence ask the ECU to spray less fuel, more timing, higher boost and etc etc. But you run the risk if you run out of water. A knock sensor wiill be great if you run into this problem.

I do not change my engine oil sooner nor noticed and problem with my internal parts or cylinder walls. In fact my mech and myself is very sold on this idea. Recently we took out an engine with water/meth injection installed for many years. Think it was done in 2008. The intake track is very clean. TB, intake and intake valves were in great condition. We didnt even have to clean the valves much Even the piston has less carbon deposits. Mind you owner was using RON95 and a daily driver. This is another great properties about water/meth injection. It steam cleans your engine every time!!

Now this is with water/meth mix. I have no experience with pure meth and do not want to experience it ;)

Please do not expect high power gains with water/meth injection. It is used to suppress knock so you can have better response and more torque. You will feel a small kick when the spray start working sort of like a vtech kick. What I mentioned above is based on experience with some logging of engine parameters, local tuning results and eye witness accounts.... Happy spraying!!

Common bro, join the gang... Fill the block, ring the gasket, tripple the injectors and we start pouring pure methanol into the tank...

Increase the boost, ign timing, CR and....

Feel the Powah!!!!!

And enjoy the oil replacement every runs!!!!

 

[xbalance2002]

just wondering who is offer best reliability and performance between AEM & Snow performance? As we know AEM produce performance part and Snow performance been water methanol injection maker.... Which brand to buy?

 

[speed2horizon]

just wondering who is offer best reliability and performance between AEM & Snow performance? As we know AEM produce performance part and Snow performance been water methanol injection maker.... Which brand to buy?

AEM methanol injection kit also made in taiwan....

If you're gonna use 100% methanol injection, u can opt for Snow performance. The seals/pump/nozzles are prepared to take pure methanol...

If u're only gonna use boost juice or 50W-50M mixture, u can opt for other brands like Devil's own, cooling mist, AEM, etc...

 

[ixeo]

AEM methanol injection kit also made in taiwan....

what do you mean by the "kit" is made in Taiwan? Means they gather the parts, pack and wrap it and put it in a box, and the packaging and materials to pack is made in Taiwan?

I know for a fact the Shurflo pump used in the AEM meth kit is made in the USA..

 

[speed2horizon]

what do you mean by the "kit" is made in Taiwan? Means they gather the parts, pack and wrap it and put it in a box, and the packaging and materials to pack is made in Taiwan?

I know for a fact the Shurflo pump used in the AEM meth kit is made in the USA..

Tell me where does Scat/Manley/K1 H-Beam connecting rod made from... Those are famous brand in US.

BTW, what's wrong made in Taiwan..?

 

[ixeo]

Tell me where does Scat/Manley/K1 H-Beam connecting rod made from... Those are famous brand in US.

BTW, what's wrong made in Taiwan..?

Dear sir, you said AEM Meth Kit is made in Taiwan, I am asking you about AEM Meth Kit, not H-Beam con rods, or anything else. This topic is specifically about Water & Meth Injection, so I am asking you that only.

So, you haven't answered the question, why you say AEM Meth Kit is made in Taiwan, can you be specific?

Nothing wrong with Taiwan. Just that you state its made in Taiwan, which is not entirely true, thus I want to know.

 

[speed2horizon]

Dear sir, you said AEM Meth Kit is made in Taiwan, I am asking you about AEM Meth Kit, not H-Beam con rods, or anything else. This topic is specifically about Water & Meth Injection, so I am asking you that only.

So, you haven't answered the question, why you say AEM Meth Kit is made in Taiwan, can you be specific?

Nothing wrong with Taiwan. Just that you state its made in Taiwan, which is not entirely true, thus I want to know.

If u ask if every single parts from Taiwan... I'll say no... But most parts are...

Nozzles, hoses, tank, seals... Not sure about pumps or any parts in the pump...

 

[ixeo]

If u ask if every single parts from Taiwan... I'll say no... But most parts are...

Nozzles, hoses, tank, seals... Not sure about pumps or any parts in the pump...

Wow. How do you know the tank is made in Taiwan? And the nozzle? Please share. The AEM nozzle has an integrated check valve and filter, seems like a custom design.

I am very curious how you know its Taiwan. Or you're just ASSuming.

 

[speed2horizon]

U go find out urself. I don't need to clarify myself. Believe it or not, non of my business.... Btw, if u think the internal check valve is unique, chins can do much more advance valves than this... Keep reading and go explore urself... Get a life...

Nuff said...... Chiowwwww

 

[xbalance2002]

wah some AEM parts make in Taiwan hard to believe as they market at premium price... what about Snow Performance... taiwan too?

 

[ixeo]

U go find out urself. I don't need to clarify myself. Believe it or not, non of my business.... Btw, if u think the internal check valve is unique, chins can do much more advance valves than this... Keep reading and go explore urself... Get a life...

Nuff said...... Chiowwwww

well, i don't need to find out, cause its bullshit. the AEM "kit" is not made in Taiwan. Don't pretend like a pro and give people wrong information, go get a real life instead of being a talking tuner who don't know shit.

check valves are common, AEM's check valve isn't. cause AEM DOESN'T HAVE A CHECK VALVE. AEM has an injector nozzle with integrated check valve.

 

[thilaksharma]

AEM's latest versions only come with check valves :) , is ur pump white sticker or black sticker
i been running on AEM for 5 years already , the newer black sticker version is err err err , the kit has also become cheaper err err

 

[Slide!]

Sometimes the easiest explanations are overlooked.

Water injection (engines)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as anti-detonant injection, is spraying water into the cylinder or incoming fuel-air mixture to cool the combustion chambers of the engine, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation). This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger, turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications. Increasing the octane rating allows for a higher compression ratio which increases the power output and efficiency of the engine. Depending on the engine, improvements in power and fuel efficiency can also be obtained solely by injecting water.[1] Water injection may also be used to reduce NOx or carbon monoxide emissions.[1]

Water injection is also used in some jet turbine engines and in some shaft turbine engines, when a momentary high-thrust setting is needed to increase power and fuel efficiency.





Contents
[hide] 1 Composition of fluid
2 Effects
3 Use in aircraft
4 Use in automobiles
5 See also
6 References
7 External links


[edit] Composition of fluid

Many water injection systems use a mixture of water and alcohol (approximately 50/50), with trace amounts of water-soluble oil. The water provides the primary cooling effect due to its great density and high heat absorption properties. The alcohol is combustible, and also serves as an antifreeze for the water. The purpose of the oil is to prevent corrosion of water injection and fuel system components. [2] Because the alcohol mixed into the injection solution is often methanol (CH3OH), the system is known as methanol-water injection, or MW50. In the United States, the system is commonly referred to as anti-detonant injection, or ADI.

[edit] Effects

In a piston engine, the initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture significantly, which increases its density and hence the amount of mixture that enters the cylinder. The water (if in small liquid droplets) may absorb heat (and lower the pressure) as the charge is compressed, thus reducing compression work.[1] An additional effect comes later during combustion when the water absorbs large amounts of heat as it vaporizes, reducing peak temperature and resultant NOx formation, and reducing the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls. This also converts part of combustion energy from the form of heat to the form of pressure. As the water droplets vaporize by absorbing heat, it turns to high pressure steam (water vapor or steam mainly resulted from combustion chemical reaction). The alcohol in the mixture burns, but is also much more resistant to detonation than gasoline. The net result is a higher octane charge that will support very high compression ratios or significant forced induction pressures before onset of detonation.

Fuel economy can be improved with water injection. Depending on the engine, the effect of water injection, with no other modification, like leaning out the mixture, may be quite significant[1] or rather limited and in some cases negligible.

In some cases water may also reduce CO emissions, this might be attributable to the water-gas shift reaction, in which CO and H2O shift to form CO2 and H2.[1] However, water may also increase hydrocarbon emissions, possibly due to an increased quenching layer thickness.

Some degree of control over the water injection is important. It needs to be injected only when the engine is heavily loaded and the throttle is wide open. Otherwise injecting water cools the combustion process unnecessarily and reduces efficiency.

Direct injection of water is possible and is likely advantageous. In a piston engine, this can be done late in the power stroke or during the exhaust stroke.

[edit] Use in aircraft

Water injection has been used in both reciprocating and turbine aircraft engines. When used in a turbine engine, the effects are similar, except that preventing detonation is not the primary goal. Water is normally injected either at the compressor inlet or in the diffuser just before the combustion chambers. Adding water increases the mass being accelerated out of the engine, increasing thrust, but it also serves to cool the turbines. Since temperature is normally the limiting factor in turbine engine performance at low altitudes, the cooling effect allows the engines to be run at a higher RPM with more fuel injected and more thrust created without overheating.[3] The drawback of the system is that injecting water quenches the flame in the combustion chambers somewhat, as there is no way to cool the engine parts without cooling the flame accidentally. This leads to unburned fuel out the exhaust and a characteristic trail of black smoke.

Piston engined petrol military aircraft utilized water injection technology prior to World War II in order to increase takeoff power. This was used so that heavily-laden fighters could take off from shorter runways, climb faster, and quickly reach high altitudes to intercept enemy bomber formations. Some fighter aircraft also used water injection to allow higher boost in short bursts during dogfights.

As a general rule, the fuel mixture is set at full rich on an aircraft engine when running it at a high power settings (such as during takeoff). The extra fuel does not burn; its only purpose is to evaporate to absorb heat. This uses up more fuel, and it also decreases the efficiency of the combustion process. By using water injection, the cooling effect of the water allows the fuel mixture to be run leaner at its best-power setting. Many military aircraft engines of the 1940s utilized a pressure carburetor, a type of fuel metering system similar to a throttle body injection system. In a water-injected engine, the pressure carburetor features a mechanical derichment valve which makes the system nearly automatic. When the pilot turns on the water injection pump, water pressure moves the derichment valve to restrict fuel flow to lean the mixture while at the same time mixing the water/methanol fluid in to the system. When the system runs out of fluid the derichment valve shuts and cuts off the water injection system, while enriching the fuel mixture to provide a cooling quench to prevent sudden detonation.

Due to the cooling effect of the water, aircraft engines can run at much higher manifold pressures without detonating, creating more power. This is the primary advantage of a water injection system when used on an aircraft engine.

The extra weight and complexity added by a water injection system was considered worthwhile for military purposes, while it is usually not considered worthwhile for civil use. The one exception is racing aircraft, which are focused on making a tremendous amount of power for a short time; in this case the disadvantages of a water injection system are less important.

The use of water injection in turbine engines has been limited, again, mostly to military aircraft. Many pictures are available of Boeing B-52 takeoffs which clearly show the black smoke emitted by turbine engines running with water injection. For early B-52s, water injection was seen as a vital part of take-off procedures. For later versions of the B-52 as well as later turbine-powered bombers, the problem of taking off heavily loaded from short runways was solved by the availability of more powerful engines that had not been available previously.

The BAC One-Eleven airliner also used water injection for its Rolls-Royce Spey turbofan engines. Filling the tanks with jet fuel instead of water lead to the Paninternational Flight 112 crash.[4]

[edit] Use in automobiles

A limited number of road vehicles with large-displacement engines from manufacturers such as Chrysler have included water injection. The 1962 Oldsmobile F85 was delivered with the Fluid-Injection Jetfire[5] engine, which was incidentally the world's first turbocharged road car. Oldsmobile referred to the water/alcohol mixture as 'Turbo-Rocket Fluid'. Saab offered water injection for the Saab 99 Turbo. With the introduction of the intercooler the interest in water injection disappeared, but today, water injection is also of interest because it can potentially decrease nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions in exhaust. The most common use of water injection today is in vehicles with aftermarket forced induction systems, such as turbochargers or superchargers. Such engines are commonly tuned with a narrower margin of safety from detonation and hence benefit greatly from the cooling effects of vaporized water.[citation needed] (