Double-Clutching

[InitialD]

Originally posted by cyclonite+Feb 27 2005, 00:26 -->

QUOTE (cyclonite @ Feb 27 2005, 00:26 )

--QuoteBegin-saru-kun

@Feb 23 2005, 19:34 rev matching a technique done during a downshift to prevent the "lurch" when the clutch is let off - clutch in - drop down a cog - blip the throttle - clutch out

I wouldn't do it like that. I would change the sequence to.... - clutch in - push gear into neutral - blip the throttle - drop down a cog - clutch out Simply because I always believe it's better for us to rev the engine to match the revs rather than using your synchromesh to match the revs for you. That's why I always rev in neutral before engaging the gear in. [/b][/quote] Cyclonite my fren, use heel and toe lah... no need to double declutch wan.

 

[differ]

Heel/Toe stems from 2x Clutching...

- toe-feather the brake
- clutch in
- push gear into neutral
- clutch out
- heel-blip the throttle to match revs
- clutch in
- drop down a cog
- clutch out

 

[saru-kun]

Originally posted by cyclonite+Feb 27 2005, 00:26 -->

QUOTE (cyclonite @ Feb 27 2005, 00:26 )

--QuoteBegin-saru-kun

@Feb 23 2005, 19:34 rev matching a technique done during a downshift to prevent the "lurch" when the clutch is let off - clutch in - drop down a cog - blip the throttle - clutch out

I wouldn't do it like that. I would change the sequence to.... - clutch in - push gear into neutral - blip the throttle - drop down a cog - clutch out Simply because I always believe it's better for us to rev the engine to match the revs rather than using your synchromesh to match the revs for you. That's why I always rev in neutral before engaging the gear in. [/b][/quote] thanks for pointing that out man....i thought something was amiss...hahaha cheers

 

[Constantine]

Originally posted by differ@Feb 27 2005, 07:39
Heel/Toe stems from 2x Clutching...

- toe-feather the brake
- clutch in
- push gear into neutral
- clutch out
- heel-blip the throttle to match revs
- clutch in
- drop down a cog
- clutch out

Yes it does..but later some smart fella simplified it and invented the Heel and Toe technique.
Heel and Toe is faster because it skips a few steps as compared to double declutching.

Here is the sequence of heel and toe:

1) Brake
2) Clutch in
3) Push gear to neutral and blip the throttle ( with toe still on the brakes )
4) Drop down a cog
5) Clutch out

 

[lozo]

just now i did clutchless upshift. haha not bad eh. can berangan using dog-box for a while.

 

[InitialD]

lozo, mind teaching us how to do it?

 

[BoatOwner]

Originally posted by bigboystoys@Feb 25 2005, 10:02

so i guess you're saying that having less actions to coordinate actually complicates the whole thing? i've spent a lot of time reading on the techniques and trying to understand what's going on in the cockpit of the race car...
i don't think i'll ever disagree with some of the really 'great' racers or race engineers ever lived to tell the tale of driving techniques...

:)

nah i was just saying that matching revs perfectly when doing clutchless downshifts/lfb is just as difficult as maintaining constant pressure on the brake when doing heel-toe. With heel-toe you have a slightly larger window in which to match the revs without unsettling the balance of the car. i do agree that lfb/clutchless shifting is better with a dogbox.... not with a syncro gearbox though.

Miton: The advantage of left foot braking/clutchless downshifts is that there is less weight transfer (more weight transfer=less overall grip) as you are able to get off the gas and on the brake without having a moment of neither in between. Same goes for getting off the brake/on the gas. And on occasion you are able to stay flat on the gas while feathering the brake(through an almost flat corner for example) with left foot braking... of course when this happens you probably won't be downshifting - again less weight transfer makes it a faster technique.

with heel-toe you don't really have to use your toes or your heel so much as the right and left sides of the base(or sole or whatever) of your foot. - if your pedals are close enough that is - as they should be in a race car.

as for the order for heel-toe i don't know why bother so much... it should all happen in pretty much one motion so the order really isn't important... as you hit the clutch also move the gear lever and blip the throttle and then you should again be off the clutch pedal.... all done pretty much at the same time and in a fraction of a second.

 

[lozo]

Originally posted by InitialD@Feb 28 2005, 01:00
lozo, mind teaching us how to do it?

easiest is to shift from 3rd to 4th, simply pull the gear into neutral,ease throttle, wait until the rpm drops (with force to enter 4th) and pup ! it enters 4th and back to throttle.

but it takes longer to shift than usual clutch shifting.

 

[cyclonite]

initial D:

I can do that on my Kancil w/o rev meter also, just gotta feel the engine and make sure the revs are consistent so cut off the air cond compressor before doing it. The slightest mistake in revs will spoil your gearbox.

Anyways, next time I'll show you on my Kancil w/o rev meter can do clutchless up/down shift :) remind me.

 

[cyclonite]

Originally posted by BoatOwner@Feb 28 2005, 01:43
as for the order for heel-toe i don't know why bother so much... it should all happen in pretty much one motion so the order really isn't important... as you hit the clutch also move the gear lever and blip the throttle and then you should again be off the clutch pedal.... all done pretty much at the same time and in a fraction of a second.

Eh boatowner, you drive boat also must do heel-toe meh? :lol:

 

[ninja_iga]

oi cyclonite :P

BabyGodZilla-GTiR and BoatOwner are in a class of their own :)
all young and talented drivers ;)

 

[escaflowne]

yup boat owner said is correct...most important is to get a way u feel is comfortable.

hey stan!! i wanna order soem sticker for unistore

 

[ninja_iga]

call them to order lo
best to go there ! :)

 

[boggysv]

Originally posted by bigboystoys@Feb 24 2005, 23:45
when i stated clutchless shifting used in racing.. i meant serious racing business...
unless your referrals of the jap gods are really that god to be able to heel/toe while maintaining absolute maximum possible braking force on the brake pedals... then i kowtow to them... but in reality it's almost impossible... maybe the gods of the gods driver would be able to do that... ie.. schumacher.. senna?

Senna...won 5 consecutives GP apparently because he can "take care" of his GB.