Budget B16a upgrades

[lightningfield]

zaki = the ultimate tuner. salude!

when u wanan yc with me. long time no see u in danau kota.

 

[zaki]

zaki = the ultimate tuner. salude!

when u wanan yc with me. long time no see u in danau kota.

OFFTOPIC:
you gei!!
yeah, lets yc. somewhere near my haus laa...

 

[shiroitenshi]

thumbs up to you shiro!!! very nice write up. i would like to contribute some.
most injectors are rated at 43psi which is ~ 3 bar.
so if you have a 240cc/min injector, it means that the injector will flow 240cc/min at 43psi fuel rail pressure. if i'm not mistaken (do correct me if i'm wrong) all B-series fuel regulators have the same max pressure which is 43psi (during WOT / when the manifold pressure is equivalent to atmospheric pressure). so if you have an Adjustable FPR, you can adjust the max pressure (at WOT) at any pressure you want.

Actually this test was to prove the point that not all B-series fuel regulators are the same, because I found out that B16A injectors are the same as the ones from type R.

This is how honda gets away with using the same sized injectors for B16A, B16B, B18CR, apart from the different fuelling maps on the ECU, by increasing fuel pressure.

Yeah... forgot that.. but for lucas-disc type injectors (like the ones from rc engineering, that theory about flow rating holds true... for pintle types injectors from keihin/honda.. I don't think it's the same. Not enough info at the moment to say for sure.

read up hondata's website for info on honda injectors.. apparently, they hit 100% duty cycle on max rpm (for the type R's).

 

[zaki]

Actually this test was to prove the point that not all B-series fuel regulators are the same, because I found out that B16A injectors are the same as the ones from type R.

This is how honda gets away with using the same sized injectors for B16A, B16B, B18CR, apart from the different fuelling maps on the ECU, by increasing fuel pressure.

Yeah... forgot that.. but for lucas-disc type injectors (like the ones from rc engineering, that theory about flow rating holds true... for pintle types injectors from keihin/honda.. I don't think it's the same. Not enough info at the moment to say for sure.

read up hondata's website for info on honda injectors.. apparently, they hit 100% duty cycle on max rpm (for the type R's).

i guess your result is consistent with what i've read on hondata's website eventhough the numbers are different

Both have 240cc injectors, but the B16A has 38 lbs fuel pressure and the B18C has 45 lbs fuel pressure.

vs

stock fuel regulator from B16A, idle = 240/250kpa, max = 300kpa

stock fuel regulator from ITR (didn't have CTR's one on hand to test, sold off already!.. but believed to be the same as ITR), idle = 290/300kpa, max at WOT = 350kpa

how are you planning to prove that the injectors open ~ 100% duty cycle at max RPM? are you going to datalog or calculate the pulsewidth?

p/s: I wonder what kind ( or how big) of injectors F1 cars use. at 18,000 RPM the pulsewidth is only 6.5ms...

 

[hattech-v]

haiyaaa... tot u using f1 car injector edi... but pls dun use ferrari injector... kekekkke...

 

[udengfahlawi]

speaking about injectors, 3 of my b16a injectors cracked at its nozzle (the plastic thingy)...is it due to wear-n-tear (heat?)...or fuel over pressure?...

 

[zaki]

haiyaaa... tot u using f1 car injector edi... but pls dun use ferrari injector... kekekkke...

i'm using Renault's....:regular_smile:

 

[J101]

i have no idea about this. never cross my mind even. hehe.

can list down here the color code reference?

 

[J101]

over pressure causes failure in fpr diaphragm or o-rings on the injectors. cracked nozzles? prolly wear an tear for the last 13years. , maybe?

speaking about injectors, 3 of my b16a injectors cracked at its nozzle (the plastic thingy)...is it due to wear-n-tear (heat?)...or fuel over pressure?...

 

[HanafyEG]

over pressure causes failure in fpr diaphragm or o-rings on the injectors. cracked nozzles? prolly wear an tear for the last 13years. , maybe?

i had this problem before...wear and tear and over pressure...

 

[hattech-v]

over pressure... yes i think that is what happen to udeng's injector... haha

 

[shiroitenshi]

how are you planning to prove that the injectors open ~ 100% duty cycle at max RPM? are you going to datalog or calculate the pulsewidth?

p/s: I wonder what kind ( or how big) of injectors F1 cars use. at 18,000 RPM the pulsewidth is only 6.5ms...

Actually just read off the A/F ratio at the same rpm.. one I tweak it past the max, the graph for that area should start showing something.

F1, I dunno.. but I won't be using one in street car, that's for sure. :P

 

[udengfahlawi]

over pressure... yes i think that is what happen to udeng's injector... haha

yeah...i think so too....pressure from fuel and pressure from me cause kenot solve problem resulting in over pressure....damn....:baring_teeth:

anyway...at what point do we actually need a bigger injector?...for instance from B-series injector to H22A injector....is it depend on hp level?...or cc of the engine (block upgrade)?...or others?....

 

[zaki]

yeah...i think so too....pressure from fuel and pressure from me cause kenot solve problem resulting in over pressure....damn....:baring_teeth:

anyway...at what point do we actually need a bigger injector?...for instance from B-series injector to H22A injector....is it depend on hp level?...or cc of the engine (block upgrade)?...or others?....

do you have AFPR & the meter? what was the pressure like?

the injector requirement must meet the horsepower that the engine can deliver...

 

[udengfahlawi]

do you have AFPR & the meter? what was the pressure like?

the injector requirement must meet the horsepower that the engine can deliver...

..heheh...actually am not really refering to my car...just a general question onli...but since u asked, pressure is about 3 bar idle and 4 bar WOT...i believe for my kicimiau engine, b-series injector enuf oledi...but a reputable tuner once suggested bigger injector (H22A) to make more power cause the current B-series one "maxed out" oledi....whatever that means....

 

[shiroitenshi]

yeah...i think so too....pressure from fuel and pressure from me cause kenot solve problem resulting in over pressure....damn....:baring_teeth:

anyway...at what point do we actually need a bigger injector?...for instance from B-series injector to H22A injector....is it depend on hp level?...or cc of the engine (block upgrade)?...or others?....

It's not about cubic capacity alone. It's about flow, and that determines how much air goes in and out of your engine. And that, ultimately is what determines your A/F ratio.

That's why people do head porting and polish, bigger valves, etc. when they want more power and increasing displacement is not an option.

Engine A that flows better with Engine B fill flow more air at the same RPM, and that allows it to generate more power with the proper airfuel ratio. In a way.. the same injector spraying the same amount of fuel would result in a lower air to fuel ratio on engine B due to the less air flowing through. Thing is.. calculating the amount of fuel sprayed is doesn't count for much, since some of the fuel will end up on the intake port/runners waiting to be picked up by the flowing air when the throttle opens, so the fuel ratio will be different depending on what happends before the fuel injected goes into the engine. It's also why they don't polish intakes like the exhaust. A smooth surface would make it difficult for the fuel to be picked up by the intake charge, as opposed to a slightly rough surface. I'm so tempted to do my own porting... but have to test my skills on another damaged head first.

Air in an engine goes in by the intake stroke, and also improved by the scavenging effect of the extractor, which is why different headers make different powers depending on 'if' they get the scavenging factor spot on, or near optimal for your engine (which is the case with our aftermarket parts). That's why for most pro racing outfits.. I think headers are custom built for each engine.

 

[shiroitenshi]

..heheh...actually am not really refering to my car...just a general question onli...but since u asked, pressure is about 3 bar idle and 4 bar WOT...i believe for my kicimiau engine, b-series injector enuf oledi...but a reputable tuner once suggested bigger injector (H22A) to make more power cause the current B-series one "maxed out" oledi....whatever that means....

There's two ways of making injectors spray more fuel than it's supposed to.

a) increase fuel pressure.

b) make the injector bigger (in capacity)

but 3bar idle, and 4 bar WOT?.. you're pushing some serious amount of fuel there at WOT if you're using H22A injectors. (unless you tweaked your fuel maps for less injector duration)

so much things to play.. so little time.. :P

 

[zaki]

..heheh...actually am not really refering to my car...just a general question onli...but since u asked, pressure is about 3 bar idle and 4 bar WOT...i believe for my kicimiau engine, b-series injector enuf oledi...but a reputable tuner once suggested bigger injector (H22A) to make more power cause the current B-series one "maxed out" oledi....whatever that means....

ok..ok..i forgot..you're referring to the white EK from Serdang. his ferarri's injectors are maxed out already. that's why he doesn't recommend ferarri's injectors

 

[zaki]

It's also why they don't polish intakes like the exhaust. A smooth surface would make it difficult for the fuel to be picked up by the intake charge, as opposed to a slightly rough surface. I'm so tempted to do my own porting... but have to test my skills on another damaged head first.

that's true but it's not a common practise here. ppl PnP their intakes until they shine like a mirror. the rough surface will create some turbulence and the fuel will atomize better.

Air in an engine goes in by the intake stroke, and also improved by the scavenging effect of the extractor, which is why different headers make different powers depending on 'if' they get the scavenging factor spot on, or near optimal for your engine (which is the case with our aftermarket parts). That's why for most pro racing outfits.. I think headers are custom built for each engine.

it is not the extractor alone. the camshaft overlapping oso have great impact on the scavenging effect as well. plus the overlapping is tuneable while the extractor is not...

 

[hattech-v]

ok..ok..i forgot..you're referring to the white EK from Serdang. his ferarri's injectors are maxed out already. that's why he doesn't recommend ferarri's injectors

correction. that white ek using honda injector oni. n its from seri kembangan. not serdang. haha