1 Bar VS 1 Bar,whats the difference?

[VT-Ten]

agree with khoyos.
1 bar is 1 bar is 1 bar. if TD04 and TD05 are running on GSR engine, similiar setup, TD05 will have higher power output (but that doesnt mean that car is faster. other factors like gear ratio, power to weight ratio, transmission loss and driver skill needs to be considered). on the other hand, TD04 will reached peak faster (and did i mention it will also runs out of "steam" faster?).

if we put it on another picture, say TD05 on GSR and TD05 on VR4 both runnin on 1 bar setup, VR4 will have the higher output due to it's displacement. On this scenario, pressure will be the same but cfm will be different.
Below is the formula to calculate cfm;

CFM = air flow rate * Pressure ratio
where;

Air flow rate = [cid (cubic inches diameter, or simply displacement x 0.061) * rpm * 0.5 * Ve] / 1728

Pressure ratio = [14.7 + boost (in psi)] / 14.7



Lets break down the equation above for easier digestion. cid is mat salleh's term for cc. to convert cc to cid, simply multiply cc by 0.061. Ve stands for volumetric efficency. a 2000cc engine will not precisely swallow 2000cc of air at every cycle. This is due to cam overlapping and mechanical efficiency. As we will not be able to accurately obtain the Ve of an engine, a rough guideline between 75% to 85% will be able to do the calculation.

and not forgetting different engine will have different CR, which will also play a role in charting the power output.

Credits are given to Corky Bell, author of Maximum Boost. If anyone of you are really into turbos, this book is recommended to read. ;)

Cheers.

 

[beyond_4896]

Hm!

OK! Every abangbesar, since u chat this. i tell u all my project!


My kelisa bolt on with L5 turbine b4 , boost at 1bar!
Now change to td04L, y the foreman boost only 0.8 ? He say max boost 1bar. but dun always.

Since the pressure same , y i cant ???

 

[flamefox850]

Therotically how is pressure caused?
The amount of air forced into an area.
A td04's 1 bar will definitely equate to a GT40's 1 bar
as would a 280HP evo on dyno be the same as a 280HP civic on dyno
Because bar, psi, kg/mm, cm, mm, hp are units of measurement
Doesn't mean your ruler bigger than mine that means your 1cm bigger than mine.
And to answer khoyos question.. Your smaller turbo maxes out at 1.4 bar, while your bigger turbo maxes out at 2.2bar and your bigger turbo reaches 1 bar faster than your smaller one. So i doubt it's a waste of money. If not why would N.A. bro's wanna spend so much money just to increase another 1k onto their redline?
Cheers

turbo not only gives u boost (pressure)..but it gives u the most important thing..that is air molecules (to be exact..the oxygen that matters). the bigger the turbo, the more air volume it can blow even though the pressure is the same.

there's a theory that relates the pressure and temperature and the volume...errr is it PV=nRT ?? i forgot already

if u heated a sealed steel box, of cos temperature rise right ? so do the pressure...if u heated sooo much, it will explode that means pressure rise so high..but then, the air volume inside the box is still the same right ?

sori ah..i'm not good in explaining things hehe

 

[flamefox850]

Hm!

OK! Every abangbesar, since u chat this. i tell u all my project!


My kelisa bolt on with L5 turbine b4 , boost at 1bar!
Now change to td04L, y the foreman boost only 0.8 ? He say max boost 1bar. but dun always.

Since the pressure same , y i cant ???

if u already floored the gas but the boost is max at 0.8bar..then check ur actuator la..maybe too soft. or u can try raise the boost with ur boost controller (maybe tulang ikan or manual BC or electronic BC)

 

[beyond_4896]

u wrong understand i mean.
i can the fish ++++ to adjuz boost.

Foreman say dun always 1bar. dangerous.

Y b4 L5 turbine can 1 bar safe, now td04 cant !?!?

 

[khoyos]

beyong 4896, u running on any fuel controller? if no, then whatever ur mech said is true. TD04 at 0.8 bar, may flow same air as L5 turbo 0.8 bar. if u boost 1 bar using td04, maybe the air flow into the engine is more, and ur stock ecu may not be able to compensate the fuelling needs. if u are using fuel controller such as safc etcetc, then no problem boosting more than 1 bar. but make sure la ur supporting mods are complete.

dont simply go and up boost to 1.5 bar just because i said u can run high boost if ur fuelling needs are fulfilled. ur mechanic understand ur engine more than u do. hehe. good luck bro...

no offense intended. peace. everyone here oso learning to understand our engines better.

 

[Vboostec]

Nice discussion here,

No need to argue to the thing that intangible.... Juz find and open both td04 and td05 compressor flow map... you can clearly see 1bar is 1bar for both (its y-axist)... but it also clearly that both have different value of CFM ( (x-axist) at 1bar above atm pressure.

The volume air flow (VAF), measured here in cubic feet per minute (cfm), is a linear function of engine displacement (here in CI), compression cycles per minute (RPM/2), and volumetric efficiency (VE), as shown in the following equation.

VAF(cfm) = (CI/1728) x (RPM/2) x VE

Always compare with same engine displacement... linear function maa...

 

[jinkl]

hoskos : maybe this pics can make u understand :shocked:

if 1bar = 1bar of any turbo
no one will buy bigger turbo hehe
then better i use td025 for my 2.0 car, smaller turbo bt power can whack t51r , shiok wor :P , summore i can reach 1bar by 2krpm ehhehehehe
just kidding la bro :) maybe u learn abit bout compressor flow maps then u can understand

flamefox850 : its becos the more bigger turbine u have, bigger flow of air u gonna get with it, ur 0.8bar of td04 air flow will be much much bigger than ur l5 turbine. so dont play play and blow the engine up if no proper fueling+tuning

khoyos : cool down la wei :P i know lerr u sifu redi hehehehhe dnt la go hantam the beginners hehhehe

hoskos : if u read in technical websites, the power of the car will be more if u have more CFM of air and not BOOST, u can have a 2.0 evo car with 1bar td05-16g and at the same setup car with 2.0 evo 0.8bar GT35 turbo , where r u placing ur bet ? :) of cos the gt35 is going to flow MUCH more air although pressure is low,

nah a link to read about http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/id6.html
and also this http://www.bentleypublishers.com/gallery.htm?code=GTUR&galleryId=805

 

[jinkl]

in other meaning

1bar of td05 and 1.2bar of td05 then 1.2bar is going to have bigger flow
and also depends on the compressor map curve cos certain turbines will already choke at high boost , example 2bar and 2.1bar wont make diffrence

0.8bar of bigger turbine might flow more than 1bar of smaller turbine

1bar of small turbine is definately smaller flow than a 1bar of bigger turbine

 

[alvin24]

Boost pressures might be the same... but the mass flow rate of air of the two turbos are different (because of the difference in density/quality of air produced). The TD05 will get more air.

 

[beyond_4896]

khoyos this my machine. :regular_smile: :regular_smile:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/beyond_4896/DSC00068-1.jpg

bolt on with L5 turbine b4,running by Microtech MT4 ,boost 1bar , sometime going 1.1....
But after change td04L the foreman say cant always 1 bar.

I also think because the turbine flow problem.
I try frm A-->B , b4 A ---> B canot reach 160kmh. Now can reach it.
So my result, bigger turbine with same boost supply more air flow,maybe the quantiti of air also increse.
The compression of air n quantiti of air, maybe diff....

 

[nova]

Lets say a GSR and Evo are both boosting at 1 bar,both using the same turbine. What is the difference between the GSR's 1 bar and the Evo's 1 bar? =P

Or lets say a TD04 boosting at 1 bar and a TD05 boosting at 1 bar,whats the difference?

If both GSR and Evo are running boost at 1 bar with the same turbo, the differences are many, such as 1.8L vs 2.0L, GSR is lighter than Evo(depending on which model), GSR runs leaner than Evo, both have totally different ignition timing, gearbox ratios, different intercooler, etc:shades_smile:

Td04 will have less flow than Td05 at the same 1 bar boost.

 

[xtremeleo]

1st of all, y r we even comparing the same turbine, the same level of boost on different engine? 1 bar of boost is 1 bar of boost, period..

the difference is the capacity d turbine can flow, in a specific time. dats what the CFM unit is for, to make it easy to identify which turbine flows better. it doesnt mean bigger compressor housing flows more den smaller unit. it all depends on d CFM, which is btw u cant simply get wit the turbine like u can get a/r reading on garrett's turbines.

if comparison were to be made on different turbines bolted on the same engine, den we can clearly see y CFM is so important. 1st thing dat has to be considered is the engine's capability to push each turbine, the one has has a bigger trim and a/r is harder to push, but witin the same rpm dat bigger turbine dat supposely has bigger CFM will flow more air into the combustion chamber in a specific time (second, minute, hour) compared to the smaller turbine.

 

[nova]

1st of all, y r we even comparing the same turbine, the same level of boost on different engine? 1 bar of boost is 1 bar of boost, period..

the difference is the capacity d turbine can flow, in a specific time. dats what the CFM unit is for, to make it easy to identify which turbine flows better. it doesnt mean bigger compressor housing flows more den smaller unit. it all depends on d CFM, which is btw u cant simply get wit the turbine like u can get a/r reading on garrett's turbines.

if comparison were to be made on different turbines bolted on the same engine, den we can clearly see y CFM is so important. 1st thing dat has to be considered is the engine's capability to push each turbine, the one has has a bigger trim and a/r is harder to push, but witin the same rpm dat bigger turbine dat supposely has bigger CFM will flow more air into the combustion chamber in a specific time (second, minute, hour) compared to the smaller turbine.

I thought that was the topic of discussion and anyone cares may pose his/her opinion. Perhaps you can start turbo discussion on a new topic and let this one go on on its own? :regular_smile:

 

[hoskos]

Anyway i really think u guys are getting abit off topic here.
The topic is 1bar vs 1bar of a different turbo.
If u want to veer of to the different setups of different cars, we'll never finish.
I still stand by my point, 1bar from a td04 vs 1bar GT40
Same.
Amount of volume between the 2.
Different.
Let's not throw in unecessary factors like compressor maps and flamefoxes version of Charles's law. (by the way, it's v1/t1 = v2/t2) lol
Because then it would lead to another topic on why compressor maps shows a td04's 1bar output of cubic flow per meter is different from a GT40
But i'd reckon with all the cut and pasting you guys have been doing. You ought to know by now right? If not let me know, then i'll explain it in simpler terms
Cheers.

 

[flamefox850]

u wrong understand i mean.
i can the fish ++++ to adjuz boost.

Foreman say dun always 1bar. dangerous.

Y b4 L5 turbine can 1 bar safe, now td04 cant !?!?

oh sori sori..misunderstand kekeke. i thought u said cannot boost high haha. so khoyos already answer ur question
usually big turbo 'carry' more oxygen molecules means u need more fuel lah

 

[flamefox850]

flamefox850 : its becos the more bigger turbine u have, bigger flow of air u gonna get with it, ur 0.8bar of td04 air flow will be much much bigger than ur l5 turbine. so dont play play and blow the engine up if no proper fueling+tuning

erk :confused_smile: ...i think u quote wrong person la bro kekeke

 

[flamefox850]

Anyway i really think u guys are getting abit off topic here.
The topic is 1bar vs 1bar of a different turbo.
If u want to veer of to the different setups of different cars, we'll never finish.
I still stand by my point, 1bar from a td04 vs 1bar GT40
Same.
Amount of volume between the 2.
Different.
Let's not throw in unecessary factors like compressor maps and flamefoxes version of Charles's law. (by the way, it's v1/t1 = v2/t2) lol
Because then it would lead to another topic on why compressor maps shows a td04's 1bar output of cubic flow per meter is different from a GT40
But i'd reckon with all the cut and pasting you guys have been doing. You ought to know by now right? If not let me know, then i'll explain it in simpler terms
Cheers.

hehe, i think u also have to clarify the word 'same' u use also..some of us might think of other meaning.
u should say 1bar boost of td04 VS 1bar boost of td05 = same pressure but different airflow/cfm/temp bla bla bla
what u trying to say is, pressure is pressure, weight is weight just like our member say 1 kg of stone weight equally to 1kg of cotton

oh anyway, the formula i'm talking about is not charles law (the formula doesn't relate pressure there :_: ), i'm talking about Ideal Gas Law (PV=nRT)
u can read it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pv=nrt or here http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/IdealGasLaw.html :regular_smile:

 

[hoskos]

But it does answer alot of questions bro.. like why on a compressor map a td04 shows that it underperforms at 1 bar than a GT40 at 1 bar. That law applies to it.
:)

 

[jinkl]

hoskos : so wht ya saying is , 1bar of td05 and 1bar td04 is same CFM ?

errr already showed in compressor map that 1bar of td05 has a bigger cfm in the same pressure ratio line , errrrrrrr

sdf :P help