Water Injection & Water-Methanol Injection

[10020]

To all the Gurus,

In short, water-methanol is more for FI unless the NA is running compression above 13:1??

Thanks in advance!

 

[Midthraan Gunasegaran]

How Water/Methanol Injection Works & How It Makes Horsepower in Gas Engines - YouTube

 

[penagihdadih]

at last found a place to discuss abt this topic. I want to DIY this kit. Hope that all gurus and forumer can give comments and suggestions.

Things that i want to ask is the possibility of using petrol injector to spray water and is there any side effect such build up rust in the injector? I want to use petrol injector because i found that additional injector can be control by small ecu such as HKS additional injector controller. If this possible i can use that thing to control the water flow.

Please give your idea and feedbacks. :)

 

[ixeo]

the meth/water will corrode the internals of the fuel injectors as almost all mainstream fuel injectors uses iron (since it should never be exposed to water, only fuel).

aquamist makes a HSV... can be controlled using PWM similar to a fuel injector but that costs like $200~300

 

[AlucarD]

Fuel injector will not work properly with water/meth injection. You will need a pump and something to power the injector. Furthermore fuel injectors will not atomize properly or fine enought to get the cooling benefits. Just get a proper kit or proper injectors designed for water/meth injection. They are not prohibitively expensive nowadays. Remember you are spraying something other than fuel in the engine. Better be precise than be sorry.

 

[penagihdadih]

yerp, i intend to use a water pump to build the pressure. my car is already equipped with additional injector with controller just before the intake manifold. By logic adding a pump and a tank could do the trick. But things to take into consideration now is the injector. If i use the existing injector i dont have to splash my cash on controller unit anymore, if i change it to water nozzle/injector can i use the same controller? (HKS additional injector controller). Ideas?

 

[speed2horizon]

Methanol has methanol injector. Hose all Teflon.

 

[penagihdadih]

Methanol has methanol injector. Hose all Teflon.

any clue/brand of the methanol injection?

 

[Ryuuken]

any clue/brand of the methanol injection?

Snow performance is one of it..
But please do keep in mind..even when u save few bucks on fuel..are u willing to flush it as u finish using ur car?
And also it gives 3 times more affect towards the environment than petrol...
In my opinion...Methanol is not that worth it..plus the effort..you'll die...
It also will affect your engine performance and reliability if you dont flush it properly..

 

[speed2horizon]

any clue/brand of the methanol injection?

What do you mean..? The injectors or the system or the hose..?

---------- Post added at 01:40 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 01:39 AM ----------

Snow performance is one of it..
But please do keep in mind..even when u save few bucks on fuel..are u willing to flush it as u finish using ur car?
And also it gives 3 times more affect towards the environment than petrol...
In my opinion...Methanol is not that worth it..plus the effort..you'll die...
It also will affect your engine performance and reliability if you dont flush it properly..

Flush...? Why do you need flushing when u inject it into the manifold..? U're not mixing it with the fuel line..

 

[penagihdadih]

What do you mean..? The injectors or the system or the hose..?

---------- Post added at 01:40 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 01:39 AM ----------



Flush...? Why do you need flushing when u inject it into the manifold..? U're not mixing it with the fuel line..

i mean the injector.. plan to buy it separately from the kit.

yerp, the idea of water injection is to cool down the air temp in the intake manifold. the water will quickly evaporate and will not harm the engine.. thus you dont have to flush the engine.

 

[Ryuuken]

i mean the injector.. plan to buy it separately from the kit.

yerp, the idea of water injection is to cool down the air temp in the intake manifold. the water will quickly evaporate and will not harm the engine.. thus you dont have to flush the engine.

Oh..sorry..my bad..hehe....
Interesting idea...will it affect the start up of the engine in the morning?

---------- Post added at 11:11 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

i mean the injector.. plan to buy it separately from the kit.

yerp, the idea of water injection is to cool down the air temp in the intake manifold. the water will quickly evaporate and will not harm the engine.. thus you dont have to flush the engine.

I've heard water to air system..but only applies on superchargers...
This is one interesting idea...

 

[penagihdadih]

start up in the morning? im not sure abt that. will need to use first (if any chance). then i will answer on that.
hehe..

 

[Katsumoto]

just to let everyone know if you plan to use water injection , make sure you change your engine oil half the mileage because
the water will ruin the engine oil much faster then you expected .....

and also the wear and tear on engine part also be greater then normal since the water will dilute the protection of engine oil


edit

the reason why you add Methanol to the water is to add fuel in to the spray

imagine if you spray pure water into engine you get only COOLING effect do remember water dont burn
the more water you put inside the combustion chamber the LESS FUEL (PETROL in this case) gonna get into
the same place

the size of the combustion chamber is fix , so getting a good ratio of water : fuel is important the make sure
you have enough fuel to burn.

that why you add methanol to the mixture to add more fuel into the combustion chamber .

methanol have several advantage
-higher octane rating
-burn at lower temperatures
-less volatile
-cheaper then petrol

 

[penagihdadih]

where did u get this information?

 

[speed2horizon]

just to let everyone know if you plan to use water injection , make sure you change your engine oil half the mileage because
the water will ruin the engine oil much faster then you expected .....

and also the wear and tear on engine part also be greater then normal since the water will dilute the protection of engine oil


edit

the reason why you add Methanol to the water is to add fuel in to the spray

imagine if you spray pure water into engine you get only COOLING effect do remember water dont burn
the more water you put inside the combustion chamber the LESS FUEL (PETROL in this case) gonna get

Oh..sorry..my bad..hehe....
Interesting idea...will it affect the start up of the engine in the morning?

---------- Post added at 11:11 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------



I've heard water to air system..but only applies on superchargers...
This is one interesting idea...

Water to air system is an intercooler. Combination of 2 closed system. It's a totally different thing. That is to cool down the compressed air in charge pipe of a SC or TC.

just to let everyone know if you plan to use water injection , make sure you change your engine oil half the mileage because
the water will ruin the engine oil much faster then you expected .....

and also the wear and tear on engine part also be greater then normal since the water will dilute the protection of engine oil


edit

the reason why you add Methanol to the water is to add fuel in to the spray

imagine if you spray pure water into engine you get only COOLING effect do remember water dont burn
the more water you put inside the combustion chamber the LESS FUEL (PETROL in this case) gonna get into
the same place

the size of the combustion chamber is fix , so getting a good ratio of water : fuel is important the make sure
you have enough fuel to burn.

that why you add methanol to the mixture to add more fuel into the combustion chamber .

methanol have several advantage
-higher octane rating
-burn at lower temperatures
-less volatile
-cheaper then petrol

The way u reply, it sounded like u're trying to pour in a cup of water into the engine. Lolx. We're just talking about. Water injection is about injecting mist into the air ramp. The suction within the air ramp cause by the engine are sufficient to atomize the waters into relatively small particle into the engine. The incompressible properties of the water increases the CR within the engine. Combustion will cause water into superheated steam that reduces the oxidation of iron in the engine.

BTW, no matter how much fuel u inject, u engine will still be able to take it. Whether or not it can be completely burn is another issue. But it's definitely not affected by water injection.

i mean the injector.. plan to buy it separately from the kit.

yerp, the idea of water injection is to cool down the air temp in the intake manifold. the water will quickly evaporate and will not harm the engine.. thus you dont have to flush the engine.

Ok, injector. The finer it is, the better. If u're purely talking abt the "water" injection, no fuel injectors are suitable. I would say look for the mist spray at mamak stall. And look for a high pressure pump to maintain the pressure when it sprays to prevent droplets formation. If u're putting in methanol, then look for those stainless steel.

Pure methanol, dub waste ur money on rnd. Go get works. All their seals and pump are prepared to take pure methanol.

start up in the morning? im not sure abt that. will need to use first (if any chance). then i will answer on that.
hehe..

U don't spray the moment u start ur car. U can control it via MAP, RPM or Air intake temperature.
Solenoids required.

In a cold morning, u doesn't want water droplet to enter ur engine. Most likely to happen due to condensation on the intake manifold internal surface.

 

[Katsumoto]

just to let everyone know if you plan to use water injection , make sure you change your engine oil half the mileage because
the water will ruin the engine oil much faster then you expected .....

and also the wear and tear on engine part also be greater then normal since the water will dilute the protection of engine oil


edit

the reason why you add Methanol to the water is to add fuel in to the spray

imagine if you spray pure water into engine you get only COOLING effect do remember water dont burn
the more water you put inside the combustion chamber the LESS FUEL (PETROL in this case) gonna get
Water to air system is an intercooler. Combination of 2 closed system. It's a totally different thing. That is to cool down the compressed air in charge pipe of a SC or TC.



The way u reply, it sounded like u're trying to pour in a cup of water into the engine. Lolx. We're just talking about. Water injection is about injecting mist into the air ramp. The suction within the air ramp cause by the engine are sufficient to atomize the waters into relatively small particle into the engine. The incompressible properties of the water increases the CR within the engine. Combustion will cause water into superheated steam that reduces the oxidation of iron in the engine.

BTW, no matter how much fuel u inject, u engine will still be able to take it. Whether or not it can be completely burn is another issue. But it's definitely not affected by water injection.




Ok, injector. The finer it is, the better. If u're purely talking abt the "water" injection, no fuel injectors are suitable. I would say look for the mist spray at mamak stall. And look for a high pressure pump to maintain the pressure when it sprays to prevent droplets formation. If u're putting in methanol, then look for those stainless steel.

Pure methanol, dub waste ur money on rnd. Go get works. All their seals and pump are prepared to take pure methanol.



U don't spray the moment u start ur car. U can control it via MAP, RPM or Air intake temperature.
Solenoids required.

In a cold morning, u doesn't want water droplet to enter ur engine. Most likely to happen due to condensation on the intake manifold internal surface.

what you say is correct but i can ensure you the more water mist you inject into the combustion chamber that mean less volume for fuel

the volume of combustion chamber is fix , you cant change that....

let me do some simple maths for you a 2000cc engine divide by 4 cylinder (for simple math let just take 2000cc instead of 1994cc)

that mean each cylinder has 500cc , if you spray 100 cc worth of water mist into the cylinder
then you have 400cc worth of room for fuel + air .

the water mist will have all the advantage you mention but does it worth it by reducing 100cc worth
of fuel + air ???

in another option if you mix the water with 50% methanol then you get 400cc of fuel + air with 50cc of methanol and 50cc of water mist

so which 1 will perform better ????

i can 100% sure told you that with the 50% mixture sure will out perform the 1 with 100% water mist

 

[speed2horizon]

what you say is correct but i can ensure you the more water mist you inject into the combustion chamber that mean less volume for fuel

the volume of combustion chamber is fix , you cant change that....

let me do some simple maths for you a 2000cc engine divide by 4 cylinder (for simple math let just take 2000cc instead of 1994cc)

that mean each cylinder has 500cc , if you spray 100 cc worth of water mist into the cylinder
then you have 400cc worth of room for fuel + air .

the water mist will have all the advantage you mention but does it worth it by reducing 100cc worth
of fuel + air ???

in another option if you mix the water with 50% methanol then you get 400cc of fuel + air with 50cc of methanol and 50cc of water mist

so which 1 will perform better ????

i can 100% sure told you that with the 50% mixture sure will out perform the 1 with 100% water mist

The simple maths is too simple even for kindergarten kids. U telling me u gonna spray 100cc of water into ur combustion chamber each stroke??

Bro, even 2cc/stroke will cause hydro detonation la... And, injecting water into the chamber does not reduce the cc... It only increases the capacity. Haiz...

I know how methanol works. Infact I've even deal with 4-6 cylinder engines running on pure methanol/ethanol of industrial and racing grades. That I don't need u to teach me.

When ppl are only aiming water injection to cool down the manifold temperature u're telling how good methanol is. Drain out ur fuel tank and plonk in some VP m3, then we can seat down together talking about methanol.

Haiz.....

In addition, from the way u describe and explain abt capacity, and ur 500cc-100cc theory, I have a feeling u either don't really know how engine operates or u don't really know what u are talking... Haha.. Have a nice day dude... Go do some reading.

 

[penagihdadih]

what speed2horizon telling is right.. let get this thing straight. water injection is to cooling down the mixture. y it needs to be cooled? simple! because the cooler the petrol and air mixture, the denser it become. when its denser efficiency of each cylinder improves. Water injection does not pouring a cup of water into the chamber, what it does is "misting" inside the intake manifold. Its the same at kedai mamak one when you can chill there at hot blazing afternoon n mist is spraying at you without making your shirt wet. When this applies to a hotter atmosphere such as intake manifold, the mist will quickly evaporate and atomize. By the way the chemical composition of water is hidrogen and oxygen. So oxygen can helps to burn the fuel inside the chamber. theres no such thing that it will makes parts of engine wear quicker. Y i said that? first of all because water and engine oil did not mix therefore it will not affect anything. In before, water injection does not spray directly to the oil pan and water will not even can get though to the oil pan. Take example of your iron, what happen when you spray water to it? quickly evaporates. what happen to your iron? does it build up rust? no rite? same goes in the engine department but with 'anti rust' called engine oil. so where does the theory of makes the engine parts wear quicker?

 

[speed2horizon]

water injection is to cooling down the mixture. y it needs to be cooled? simple! because the cooler the petrol and air mixture, the denser it become.

Correct. But not so accurate. Water cools down the Air. Air with lower temperature will have higher oxygen density. And cooler mixture can reduce engine detonation.

That's it.

Its the same at kedai mamak one when you can chill there at hot blazing afternoon n mist is spraying at you without making your shirt wet. When this applies to a hotter atmosphere such as intake manifold, the mist will quickly evaporate and atomize. By the way the chemical composition of water is hidrogen and oxygen. So oxygen can helps to burn the fuel inside the chamber. theres no such thing that it will makes parts of engine wear quicker. Y i said that? first of all because water and engine oil did not mix therefore it will not affect anything. In before, water injection does not spray directly to the oil pan and water will not even can get though to the oil pan. Take example of your iron, what happen when you spray water to it? quickly evaporates. what happen to your iron? does it build up rust? no rite? same goes in the engine department but with 'anti rust' called engine oil.

Irrelevant.

Heat doesn't turn water or H2O into Oxygen and Hydrogen. H2O will remain as H2O no matter what temperature it reaches... It's called superheated steam.