Engine oil getting lesser

simplythebest

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simplythebest

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Hey,

Two days ago, brought my car to the workshop I regularly visit for servicing. Notice that the engine oil is getting lesser, as what the mech told me.

Surprisingly, i don't see white smoke, except in the morning (Normal case).

I was told to change the piston or piston rings and do a overhaul.

I'm seeking the cost for the above, piston and overhaul. Let me know.

Thanks. :cool:
 

firasparK

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firasparK

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im having the same problem. my mech quoted me RM950. (includes changing the piston rings, valve seal and few more other stuff)
but he suggested that i should just change the whole engine, which is what i am doing.

anyway, if ur exhaust isn't blowing out white smoke everytime u rev it shouldn't be ur piston rings problem gua...

hope this helps :x
 
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simplythebest

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simplythebest

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Yo there,

Same here, not going to overhaul the engine, is a retarded 1.3 engine.

Actually, my mech advise me to drive at moderate speed from now onwards, the engine condition is still ok, just that don't drive too harsh, like whack 6K RPM all the time.

Mileage only 88,000 km's.

Your engine oil getting lesser too? I change my engine oil every 4,000 km's now.
 

firasparK

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yes... if u don't rev ur engine unnecessarily then it should be fine.

mine is dropping kinda rapidly.
every morn. i check it juz incase i need to refill coz i haf an extra bottle at home.. i reckon u should do that too. =p

i'm gonna go get my new engine tomorrow anyway so i guess i don't have to worry no more :P ehhe..
 
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mengz

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so actually wats the reason for this happening? if its not valve seal leak, not piston ring leak, then where has the engine oil gone to?
 

firasparK

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im not too sure myself man.
don't know much about these stuff >_<

but from what i understand (or what it sounds like, at least) is that the piston rings are the ones that are causing the leak..
 
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mengz

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hmmm..maybe mild leak??? coz my engine is having similiar problem, not only mine actually a few of my frens using the same engine is having similiar problems. my mech said that actually can smell engine oil fumes from the exhaust but no visible smoke, and when he check the plugs it was ok.......sigh i think my engine probably need an overhaul soon, or maybe change engine...hmmmmm
 

gohkokeng

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gohkokeng

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can i know what is an overhaul?

haha don flame me.....i am willing to learn from bottom
 

evo5229

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as i know bro.....if u used air filter...then engine il will less.....im not very sure la...but and also u added ezso....if u modified sum thing in your car....then it will used some engine oil too......my mech told me dun used air filter....but may be im used the cheap 1 la....so original is good.....just my 2 cent...cherr
 

Fluffy

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there's no direct connection between the intake and exhaust with the engine lubricants.why shud the intake and exhaust cause engine oil to decrease???
 

firasparK

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gohkokeng said:
can i know what is an overhaul?

haha don flame me.....i am willing to learn from bottom
its alright, em overhaul meaning opening up ur engine to fix the inside parts.

evo5229 said:
as i know bro.....if u used air filter...then engine il will less.....im not very sure la...but and also u added ezso....if u modified sum thing in your car....then it will used some engine oil too......my mech told me dun used air filter....but may be im used the cheap 1 la....so original is good.....just my 2 cent...cherr
my car uses an air filter too, and i also heard the same thing as u did, engine oil gets less.

but the white smoke from my exhaust confirms that theres a problem.
previously i tried using different engine oils but it didn't help hehe..

so my my final decision was to change the dam engine =_=. after all its 10 years old =x so yeah...
 
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gohkokeng

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evo5229 said:
as i know bro.....if u used air filter...then engine il will less.....im not very sure la...but and also u added ezso....if u modified sum thing in your car....then it will used some engine oil too......my mech told me dun used air filter....but may be im used the cheap 1 la....so original is good.....just my 2 cent...cherr
DO NOT USE AIR FILTER? lol......can? then how? remove the air filter totally?

open port or drop in all no need?
 

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Hey guys,

My car had done full and complete overhaul to the engine due to torn timing belt. Before the engine was overhaul, the engine oil depleted in fast rates likes what you guys encounter now. At 1st, I thought overhauling the engine should solved my existing problems though no much choice for me since my engine needs complete overhaul after the timing belt is torn. But, what the heck, the engine oil still depleting in the same fashion but in slower rates. 1st few weeks still alright but then after I swapped back my performance cams into it, the engine oil started to deplete.
 

jombiee

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When overhaul, do you check the cylinder got scratch or worn out, do you rebore or fix with new piston ring ? tell us in detail whats parts changed.
I faced this problem before but the culprit is a worn valve guides
I will go for a compression test. its a procedure the check wether its a valve guide or piston ring are leaking
 

evo5229

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gog kokeng....hehe...ya im talking about the sport air filter like cendawan lai det 1......sir fileter must use ler...if not the engine will be chuck...hehe

firaspark.....ya then izit the endine old d,.....some time engine too oold will makan engine oil....is ok lah now...chnage new engine d wor...so happy rite...jehehehhe


fluffy.....this is wat my mech tiold me la...but they also not 100% correct 1 lah...mech alway lie 2 ppl 1 mah...hehe.....but for my 2 cent....i think that if u used cheap air filter so the dirty things will go inside the engine n may be lai det makan engine oild kua.........

anyway must service accordingly for keeping a good car........sayang your car more....!!! cheer///hehe
 

nitrus

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got a question..

if the engine oil is already depleting (Getting low) b4 its time for our regular service, is it advisable to add in some more engine oil (the remaining from last service) ?
 

jombiee

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off course nitrus, we should take care the engines oil level
but the lube oil nowadays are really good, there are several times my oil level are low(below min), but no high temperature & no massive wear & tear !
 

nitrus

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jombiee said:
off course nitrus, we should take care the engines oil level
but the lube oil nowadays are really good, there are several times my oil level are low(below min), but no high temperature & no massive wear & tear !
ohh ok.. tnx..

but it's ok to add in the "fresh" engine oil (from our previous service) into our current engine ? like, mixing old n new oil together... hope u get wat i mean
 

jombiee

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oo like that aa
I think can la bro, its to lubricate. as long as ur engine got its lubrication its fine.
just make sure its the same oil viscocity aka same type as ur previous one
 

nitrus

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hehehe ok! :_:

yea i will add in with the same engine oil / same grade / same everything, from the same bottle from last service too, lol !!
 

firasparK

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evo5229 said:
gog kokeng....hehe...ya im talking about the sport air filter like cendawan lai det 1......sir fileter must use ler...if not the engine will be chuck...hehe

firaspark.....ya then izit the endine old d,.....some time engine too oold will makan engine oil....is ok lah now...chnage new engine d wor...so happy rite...jehehehhe
hahaha yaaa!!! my cendawan red colour de :emoticon_U:
 

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before you overhaul the top engine, there are few ways to check whether your engine is "eating oil"...

1) Ask someone to rev your engine up to almost red line of RPM, then you stand behind and see whether there is black or white smoke coming out. Sometimes we cant see it when engine is idle.. but can see it when you accelerate.

2) Check the engine oil gasket (where you pour in the engine oil). Check the surround of the rubber - whether it is already worn out or not. Then check any leakage on the side of the gasket hole - on the engine.

3) Check the spark plug. Check whether there is any leakage on there.

4) Check the engine side... especially the top cover part. Check the surround whether there is leakage or not.

5) Park you car and check whether there is leakage of the engine oil on the floor. If yes, then there is leakage. If no, then the leakage might be minimal. Perhap the engine oil is dried up when you drive the car and the engine is hot...

If all above is not true, then only opt for overhaul. Overhaul doesnt mean need to change the piston ring. Sometimes the mechanic just want to trick you... since the engine already open, why not change it now?

mostly is the gasket that seal around the engine cover is already worn.... do a checkup and see.
 

vantageX

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nonameNo is correct with the tests above. Here's a few more:

Check your engine, if its dry top to bottom then you don't have an external oil leak. Conduct the above tests as nonameNo suggested though the revving to red line thing isn't really recommended with old cars cause its almost certain you're gonna see some kinda smoke coming out which doesn't necessarily mean something's wrong.

Another way oil can be escaping is thru your engine's breather system. Some people replace the breather with a small air filter. If this filter is covered with oil then you know where your leak is. If you have a original breather system then this will most certainly lead to your air filter box. Open up the air filter box and look inside, if there is any indication of oil then you know the oil is coming out of the breather pipe and into the air filter and then is taken back into the combustion chambers and burnt.

The above breather pipe mentioned is from the rocker cover. Not the crank breather assembly. The reason the breather pipes have oil coming thru is because the valve seals are leaking. This would mean a top overhaul at the least.

Another place oil can go though its somewhat uncommon would be to the clutch. There is an oil seal that is mounted between the clutch housing and the engine. This seal can sometimes leak and if its a major leak you'll sometimes notice your clutch slipping though a minor leak would be very hard to trace.
 

mengz

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vantageX can i connect tat breather hose to a oil catch can instead of putting a filter there?
 
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vantageX

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mengz: Sure, you can connect an oil catch tank. That would be another option especially if you're losing oil thru your breather hose. It'll be better than the oil going into the combustion chamber and being burnt off.

Though an oil catch tank will collect the oil instead of it being burnt off, you can't avoid the fact that if your engine has oil coming out of the breather pipe with normal everyday driving then you do have a problem.

If you do a lot of spirited driving then do expect some oil to escape thru the breather hose.
 

mengz

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hmmm...ok thanks for the info. i think i rather put an oil catch tank there instead of a filter, bcoz i dun want engine oil to be evaporating under my hood. but like that means got 2 oil catch can edi, one for the PCV and one for the breather...hmmmm..
 

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mengz: why do you need two oil catch tanks? Does your catch tank have its own air filter at the top?

What is your current oil catch tank connected to?
 

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simplythebest said:
Yo there,

Same here, not going to overhaul the engine, is a retarded 1.3 engine.

Actually, my mech advise me to drive at moderate speed from now onwards, the engine condition is still ok, just that don't drive too harsh, like whack 6K RPM all the time.

Mileage only 88,000 km's.

Your engine oil getting lesser too? I change my engine oil every 4,000 km's now.
seems like ur car didnt run in too well during initial breaking in period...or u can check if ur engine got dirty or not with oily stuff at any part of ur engine...that shows ur gasket is bad and need replacement...ur engine is still new...
u dont need to change engine oil every 4k...just change at normal 5k...and keep the spare oil after each change...to top up when u check the car engine oil is low...
 

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My engine oil also getting lesser and lesser very fast last time. All shop ask me do top overhaul. But I keep on asking everyone. Then I found one place. The mechanic ask me to change valve seal instead for RM1xx. It doesn't involve opening up engine. So after changing, no more oil missing. Furthermore, during the changing of valve seal, I change my engine oil from mineral to fully synthetic. I think I'm kinda crazy that time.
 

mengz

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vantageX said:
mengz: why do you need two oil catch tanks? Does your catch tank have its own air filter at the top?

What is your current oil catch tank connected to?
i dun have one now, but im planning to get one and i've been reading on the net, usually the oil catch tank is connected in between the PCV valve and the intake manifold. so unless any oil catch can in the market has 2 input and 2 outputs, then i can route the breather hose into the same oil catch tank.
 

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mengz said:
i dun have one now, but im planning to get one and i've been reading on the net, usually the oil catch tank is connected in between the PCV valve and the intake manifold. so unless any oil catch can in the market has 2 input and 2 outputs, then i can route the breather hose into the same oil catch tank.
u can customize the OCT...so u only need one OCT......ehehe
 

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Seems like every one here have left out 1 very important thing on the engine oil lost.
Some background of engine : everything that rotate will have wear and tear include the piston rings. If the engine is rev to 4.5k and above regulary, the piston rings sure will wear faster and creating some small gap between the holder and piston.
Engine oil will change its properties when hot it will become lighter or more technical is the viscocity of the oil drops. So when the oil is hot, it will slip in to the combustion chamber and burn together with petrol. Depending on how much the slip-thru is, lesser we won't see any white smoke. When the gap is big, then we can see alot of white smoke. Petrol will tend to slip thru to engine oil also if the gap is big and make the oil become lighter. This don't have actual proof as the petrol in contaminated oil will booil off when the car is moving. So the best is don't adjust a car's timing more than factory default. If the enigine is vibrating, maybe is caused by other problem.
Below are the examples of engine consumption on an old car(8 years and above) based on normal wear and tear or an uncle cars that never rev the engine till 4.5k and above.
If we use syntactic oil(Shell Helix Utra or similar), the oil will only last you for 1-2 weeks or the lost is 50-70% as viscocity of the oil is lowest.
If semi-syntactic(Shell Helix plus), the lost will be around 30-50% as the visco is higher.
If use the lowest grade(Shell Super Standard) the lost will be 20-40% as the visco is highest.
As wear and tear we cannot avoid, at the same time want to save money for the top overhaul, so the best way is add addative to the engine oil to bring up the viscocity. Then the lost will be lesser. Like my Wira 2003(done 95k), when using semi-syntactic oil the lost is around 10-20%, if add the addative, the lost is lesser at 5% only.
 

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mengz said:
i dun have one now, but im planning to get one and i've been reading on the net, usually the oil catch tank is connected in between the PCV valve and the intake manifold. so unless any oil catch can in the market has 2 input and 2 outputs, then i can route the breather hose into the same oil catch tank.
You got your crankcase breather and your cylinder breather hoses right. Use a T joint which you can find in hardware shops or somewhere else and connect the two hoses up. A T joint has 3 connections so you have one connection left. Connect this to the oil catch tank's inlet. And the outlet is connected to your PCV. Remember seeing such a set-up on an old Austin Allegro. The Allegro had one pipe coming out from the drivers side of the engine near the clutch assembly (crankcase breather) and one pipe coming from the cylinder head cover. These 2 pipes met at a T-joint which then led to the air filter.

kyheng: Good points. But just wondering why do you still use a semi-synthetic and then add an additive to thicken up the oil? Doesn't this just defeat the purpose in the first place of using a semi-synthetic?

It has been said in the past that even new cars with high-mileage can switch to a lower grade oil to improve oil consumption and to make up for wear and tear.
 

kyheng

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Well, you got the point, but if use lower grade oil, the engine temp will be slightly higher, if use semi syntactic the temp will be lower, that is why I have to use like this. The addative is to bring up the viscocity, but will not affect much of the oil other properties. You might feel the car abit heaviey is use lowest grade, but if use semi + addative is still like you are using semi only.
Actually in order sense, is useless also, as the addative is cost 12-1++ and have to change every 5000-6000km. Is abit subjective on this, so have to depend what we want, but if the leak is big, is better to add the addative.
 

vantageX

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I see, what brand of additive are you using? Sounds like you're using it to stop a leak? Would it be No Smoke? The price sounds about right for No Smoke.
 

kyheng

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The price is around 14-20, as said earlier, as said earlier, oil tends to slip-in to the combustion chamber due to piston rings wear and tear(this applied to new cars also). If the gap is small, the slip-in is less which is my car facing now. The addative is not used to stop leak, is used to make the visco higher, so if the car is running with the engine oil is hot(maybe 70°C), it will not so fast and easy to slip-in to combustion chamber. Thus the oil will not lost in short time. If really a big leak where using addative also cannot control, is better to do top overhaul.

Engine oil got certain visco index at certain temperature, the number in the container is at ambient temperature or 15°C, say 40cst. When the engine temp become 70°C, the visco will go lower, say 15cst. So at 15cst it will move/flow faster than 40cst.
 

mengz

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instead of adding additive to make the viscosity go higher, y not just get an engine oil which has high viscosity? i remember i read somewhere when an engine oil contains too much Viscosity Index Improvers(VI), under high temp & shear forces, the molecules of the VI tend to change shape thus lowering the quality of the engine oil gradually. also, how much viscosity will the oil additive add? what brand issit u using? does it state clearly by adding how much, ur bringing up the viscosity by how much?

also, ur above post, u said a car with shell helix ultra will lose more than shell helix plus and super. i think u kinda misunderstood engine oil viscosity. actually, shell helix ultra and shell helix plus both are 15w50, only difference is one is fully-syn and the other is semi-syn. shell helix super is 20w50. the only difference is the W which doesnt make much difference here in malaysia. so how come shell helix ultra loses more engine oil than the other 2? all 3 engine oils are 50 viscosity at operating temp. so why do u say shell helix super has the highest viscosity?
 
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vantageX

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kyheng said:
as said earlier, oil tends to slip-in to the combustion chamber due to piston rings wear and tear(this applied to new cars also). If the gap is small, the slip-in is less which is my car facing now. The addative is not used to stop leak, is used to make the visco higher, so if the car is running with the engine oil is hot(maybe 70°C), it will not so fast and easy to slip-in to combustion chamber. Thus the oil will not lost in short time. If really a big leak where using addative also cannot control, is better to do top overhaul.

I asked about No Smoke because No Smoke is used to help cars with smoking problems hence the name. It works by temporarily sealing the gaps between the piston rings and cylinder walls and in other words stopping the leak of engine oil into the combustion chambers and stopping the smoke.

But because its poured into the engine, it also mixes with the oil and viscosity becomes higher. But in a car with a smoking problem it doesn't matter because the car is already losing power because of the compression loss thru the pistons. With the oil being thicker, the compression is returned and so is the power.
 

kyheng

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I don't want to argue much on this, as before I change to Wira, I drive a 94 Iswara, all the above mentioned oil I have used without adding addative. The result is using fully syn-oil have to top up another 2liters after 2 weeks, semi-syn have to top up 1liter after 1month and lowest grade no need to add. I complete 5000km around 3months or lesser. You can find out this with your mech on how true is my statements.
Another thing is if I not mistaken, the engine oil temp is more 50°C when the car is running.
http://www.twf8.ws/new/tech/tip/enginetemp.html
Just get the info from this website, the temperature is at 90-110°C.
If use the lowest grade for 3 years engine, you will feel that your car is abit heavy and response slower, if use syn oil you can feel that your car is like flying.
Frankly speaking I don't know what is the 15w50 or 20w50 stands for, maybe like you say I misunderstand it(I'm sorry for this) But I'm type of man that try and error, futher info you can check below website:
http://www.bpoil.co.za/products/engine/vanellus/c6global.htm
From the spec(10w40) you can see at ambient temp the visco is 106, when at
100°C the visco is 14.
You can also check Shell's website for the correct oil for the age of a car:
http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPage..._lubricants/helix_new/app_choose_ga_0312.html
You see, they only recommend you to use lowest grade for a 10 year car. Why they never ask you to use shell helix ultra?
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/oil_viscosity.html
I have read few times already on this, I cannot understand it... Haha.
From the above article also they not recommend we to use the addative. But the addative that I buy normally is around 50-100ml or lesser, brand NASA. maybe if the addative keep too long it will degrade, but my usage is fast, every change only takes 3months or lesser. I only come across to use the addative when I know that the engine oil lost 20% after 3 months. So after adding it, the lost is around 5% now, without performance drop, I have use 1 time the lowest grade and I feel my car abit heavy.
 
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vantageX

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Nah, not arguing here, just a fascinating topic. I guess nobody is right and wrong here and even the most experienced mechanic can't tell what the best solution here. There are so many variations to play around with, temperature, driving style, condition of engine, tune of engine, types of oil, additives and so on and so forth.

However, I do have to disagree with Shell's system of recommending oils based on just the age of a car. Eventhough a car is new, it can still have an old design engine in it or the other way around, an old car with a revolutionary engine for its time. I guess for the average car user out there the Shell guide is ok but I don't think we should take it too seriously. The other websites are a good read though and should be read by anyone wanting to learn more about engine oils.
 

kyheng

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Yeah, but basically, old car cannot use fully syntactic oil because of low viscocity or too light in another term. You can try without adding ant addatives, but don't regret after this. The Shell system fault is they never tell us why old car cannot use syntactic oil. Being a company that selling luboil, not only Shell, they should speficy more clearly on this, atleast we will be more aware.
Another thing that you get it wrong abit is the engine oil used is corresponding to the age of engine, not the age of car. So the design of the engine is not a matter.
I think is better that we test around with the oils(syn, semi, standard) then we make the conclusion ourself. The process might be long(1year) but atleast we know which oil is better for our car engine.
Back to the topic, this is 1 of the main cause that we lost the engine oil if wrong grade is used.
 
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mengz

500 RPM
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mengz

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bro, not arguing here....we're here for a reason. to discuss & find solution :0 so if i offended u any how, im sorry.

back to the topic. ermmmm, i really have no idea y shell advice users like that. but i've came across other sites that says to use a thicker viscosity oil for older engines, due to the gaps being wider after wear & tear & newer engines or new design engines that has tighter bearings can use lower viscosity oil. so this sounds more logical, instead of saying use fully-syn for new engine, semi-syn for old engine, mineral for older engine. doesnt make sense, coz its the viscosity that we're interested abt, not its base stock.
 

kyheng

1,000 RPM
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kyheng

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Not yet being offended, so is ok for me. Sometimes when we think tilted abit, it will become war zone here, haha.
Shell advise like this because they don't people to know that what is their actual visco. Another thing is, I don't what brand you are using, and have changed how many brands. But for performance wise, in budget matter, other brand like Castrol or Duckhams can outbeat Shell at the same range.
 

mengz

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mengz

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im using Q8 semi-syn 10w40 every 5000km. its price:performance ratio meets my expectation so all is good.
 

mengz

500 RPM
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mengz

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Jan 15, 2005
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Q8 is the brand, its actually a kuwaity company, hence the name Q8=kuwait. rhymes doesnt it? :) but the oil is manufactured in europe.

im switching to redline on my nxt oil change. was thinking of doing an engine flush with normal mineral oil for like 5 flushes, to clean the engine b4 pouring in the redline....hmmm