Rotary Engines - FAQ.

[InitialD]

Alchemis,

i would like to thanks for this good info for a newbie like me..
after read all info kinda make me little bit aware about it.

could you suggest the suitable viscosity for MazdaSpeed RX8.
at the moment the car used the Idemitsu 5W-40 as per recommended by mechanic.
after revving approximately 9K RPM for short moment & short distance (10km approx.)
next morning the exhaust fume kind give some weird smell.
kinda burning fumes & strong. giving un-pleasant feeling.
fyi, the car for weekend ride...

i intend to service & check for the possible source of the problem or it is normal for rotary engine?

there is a suggestion to try/use the Motul 300V Power 5W-40.
hopefully any RE expert/knowledgeable could guide me...

thanks in advance.

There is this guy in USA by the nick of Rotary God. He went to an event for rotary enthusiast called Sevenstock and met some top people from Mazda and some expert rotary builder.

Below is a quote of what he posted on rx8club forum
Rotarygod and Brillo's Sevenstock 8 Blog - Page 3 - RX8Club.com

Ok here's the official scoop on the oil issue. As I said earlier, I asked the highest people on the planet when it comes to rotaries. First I'll start with Rick Engman's position as he built all of the engine's for Downing. I looked at Rick and just quite simply said, "synthetic oils". His response was, "I wouldn't use anything but synthetic oil in a rotary". Thankyou Mr. Engman! All of Downing's race cars use Valvoline synthetic. He said it doesn't matter if it is a race engine or not. I also told Mr. Engman that many people say you only use synthetics in a rotary because it gets rebult all the time and that it doesn't matter what happens to these engines. I can't post what his opinion are of these people! He did say their engines get 100 RACE hours of use between rebuilds. The Courage is using experimental engine parts that were last used in the 80's and 90's! They care more about the longevity of the engine on a race car than a street car so some people's logic is VERY flawwed.

Now onto Mazda's position on synthetics since I know that the opinion of the smartest rotary person in the U.S. isn't good enough for some people. As I stated earlier, I asked the head of rotary engine development for the past 30 years at Mazda. He designed and built the 787B engine too. In very broken english he told me that not all synthetics are created equal. some are better than others when it comes to mixing with fuel in the oil metering system. The oil metering system is the key. It is NOT with swelling seals. He said that because some oils work very well and others not as well, it is far easier to just officially say not to use them than to say which ones to use and not to. This has actually been speculated for a long time and now we know it's true. I asked which synthetic oils he does not like. the answer is very surprising. The worst synthetic oil for the rotary according to the smartest rotary engine person in the world is Mobil 1.

At least Valvoline and Royal Purple are fine. Didn't get any others listed. Rick Engman did say that decades ago there was an issue with some swelling of seals with old synthetic formulations but these have long since been resolved.

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

 

[savahn]

I would not be impressed by Rick Engman's position regarding the oils for the simple matter that he has no basic foundation for assumption besides "I build race cars".

As for the 2nd, who is the head of rotary engine development? Got a name?

Road cars are built with wide tolerances and such, can use a lower grade oil. Further complicating the matter is that not all motor oils are the same - each has their own "secret sauce" ingredients that needs a little brain power to understand.

Race cars are built with high precision and really tiny tolerances. Thus they have to use the synthetic oils which supposedly have a higher precision mix - because its synthetic.

That said, the real question is whether you are going to fork out hundreds of ringgit for a bottle of synthetic or RM70 for a bottle of mineral - despite the fact that you DONT EVEN GO ONTO A RACE TRACK!

Well, unless you happen to be pushing 400HP.

 

[InitialD]

Friction is Friction. Normal car or race car also suffer wear and tear from friction.

For RX-8 owners who want better protection which only synthetic oil can offer, did you know that Mazda came out with their own synthetic oil for the RENESIS?

For those interested to see how certain brands of synthetic oil performed in the Bearing Friction test,
then check out these videos.

Castrol
[youtube]sfjywumBpzQ[/youtube]

Shell Helix Ultra
[youtube]xyaFCrtQ7Z8[/youtube]

Mobil 1
[youtube]RHMkFS3jBeQ[/youtube]

AMSoil
[youtube]7mWJTSQh2yM[/youtube]

Royal Purple
[youtube]KEj-VMwgz3U[/youtube]

 

[RERider]

Good videos, InitialD. Thanks for sharing.

I have a same equipment like above. You guys are welcome to test your engine oil. Bring your oils. If anyone who has the Royal Purple, do bring along. I wanna see how my old engine oil against the Royal Purple. :P

FYI, I'm using Roar Lubricant's Fully Synthetics "Power Plus" and "RS". Formerly known as Texas Revolution Titanium.

Cheers.

Let's set a date....

 

[InitialD]

Good videos, InitialD. Thanks for sharing.

I have a same equipment like above. You guys are welcome to test your engine oil. Bring your oils. If anyone who has the Royal Purple, do bring along. I wanna see how my old engine oil against the Royal Purple. :P

FYI, I'm using Roar Lubricant's Fully Synthetics "Power Plus" and "RS". Formerly known as Texas Revolution Titanium.

Cheers.

Let's set a date....

I was at the Texas Revolution Titanium Bearing Friction Test many years ago. I saw it with my own eyes how the popular synthetic oil like Mobil 1, Shell and other racing oil brands failed.

I stopped using Texas Revolution Titanium because it was too expensive plus it already turned super black at 7000km thus I didn't buy into their claim of 20,000km interval oil change.

I have royal purple oil with me. It would be interesting to see how it performs. Let me know when and where and what time.

 

[RERider]

Great. Let's do it during our gathering.

As for the super black issue, did u flush your old engine oil, i.e in your oil coolers etc? I do my oil change at 3k km for my RX-7s and 10k km for my R34. Actually after the 2nd oil change, the blue oil will be more effective.

Quote from Chris Yap Write-up:-

It is important to note that the first time this new oil is used, it progressively dislodges the build-ups from previous mineral base engine oils. At the same time, it forms a durable protective layer on all moving metal components in the engine. Therefore, it is recommended that second oil change be carried out after 10,000 kms – 20,000 kms for cars. On the second oil change, the thin molecular layer of Texas Revolution Titanium Engine Oil will be even more effective. The subsequent oil change interval can now be extended to every 20,000 kms.

More info:-
ROAR Lubricant




.

 

[InitialD]

Great. Let's do it during our gathering.

As for the super black issue, did u flush your old engine oil, i.e in your oil coolers etc? I do my oil change at 3k km for my RX-7s and 10k km for my R34. Actually after the 2nd oil change, the blue oil will be more effective.

Quote from Chris Yap Write-up:-

It is important to note that the first time this new oil is used, it progressively dislodges the build-ups from previous mineral base engine oils. At the same time, it forms a durable protective layer on all moving metal components in the engine. Therefore, it is recommended that second oil change be carried out after 10,000 kms – 20,000 kms for cars. On the second oil change, the thin molecular layer of Texas Revolution Titanium Engine Oil will be even more effective. The subsequent oil change interval can now be extended to every 20,000 kms.

More info:-
ROAR Lubricant




.

I see.

Anyway, when is your gathering and where?

 

[savahn]

Hmmm... this one I must see to believe. Regarding the videos:

1. Notice that all the other oils were tested on the one piece of metal but the Royal Purple was tested on its own piece of metal? I would be more convinced if it were the same piece of metal.

2. The reason for letting engine reach operating temperatures is so that the load bearing parts are properly lubed and that the lube itself can reach its operating temperature. It is well known that synthetics have better performance at the low and high temperature ranges, how about show the other oils performing within their range?

3. If you guys are so much interested in this load bearing friction test, may I recommend you replace all your engine's moving parts with titanium and inconel? You might get cracked parts but you will get less friction wear.

Here's some translations for you:
a- Progressively dislodges: this oil contains massive amounts of detergents
b- thin molecular layer: marketing jargon which says the writer has no idea what he's talking about
c- it's blue: it has permitted food colouring and flavour - probably blueberry... And here I thought the whole point of synthetics is that it is composed of mono-type molecules.

Oh, and btw, want to know why Mobil 1 is the WORST synthetic to use for rotaries?
Using Mobil 1 in a Mazda Rotary Engine

Funny that...

Hai... this is the oldest argument in the rotary forums. Just use what you can afford. Unless you're going to stick with your car like a wife, don't worry about the oil so much. Unless you're doing race and you need to squeeze out that little bit of performance. Unless you are pushing 400HP out to the wheels and drive like a nut besides.

Finally, do remember that the majority of us use reconditioned and 2nd hand parts. If friction were such a problem, you think we would be buying them? Don't you think all those parts would have been rendered useless by now - 20 years on? Unless we want to believe that everybody except us are using Royal Purple.

---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 11:00 PM ----------

The more I search for info about royal purple, the less I know about it. It all ties into this proprietary mix of ingredients patented as "Synerlec". Sounds like some sort of weird glue - Super Glue, by the way, shares some similarity to the base compounds that make synthetic oils.

Synthetics are turning out to be less "pure" than expected. It's got all sorts of chemical additives.

 

[InitialD]

---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 09:59 AM ----------

[/COLOR]

Hmmm... this one I must see to believe. Regarding the videos:

1. Notice that all the other oils were tested on the one piece of metal but the Royal Purple was tested on its own piece of metal? I would be more convinced if it were the same piece of metal.

That is not true. With each oil they use a new bearing.
I've seen this test done with my own eyes b4 at the Texas Revolution Titanium Bearing Friction Test many years ago and they use a new bearing with every test.

---------- Post added at 10:24 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------

To all newbies, the whole issue of synthetic versus mineral is not about which is better.
It is whether or not it is OK to use synthetic in rotary.

So in order to avoid any problems, most rotary owners in the past use mineral oil.
Anyway many RX-8 owners in the United States have been using Royal Purple oil with good results and a few of them have gone over 100,000 miles b4 rebuilding their engines.

Below is an FAQ from Royal Purple website.

Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?

Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results — including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz (who has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars using synthetic motor oils since 1985 with excellent results) has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.

In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.

Here are some facts:

- The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
- MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
- Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for 10+ years with excellent results.
- Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.

Source: Royal Purple FAQs

 

[savahn]

So you're basically saying your "facts" comes from the manufacturer of Royal Purple and not by Mazda Racing themselves?

Sigh... Okay, I agree with "It is okay to use synthetics in rotaries". That was not in doubt.

But again I have to point out that you need to have some unbiased basis for these issues:
1. Fully synthetic motor oil is significantly better than mineral oil = i am still skeptical over how much better
2. Road cars should change to synthetics due to the superior performance = if the performance justifies the price, I'll agree

I would not encourage the average driver to switch to synthetic unless they are prepared to pay the price. Once you switch to synthetic, you cannot switch back to minerals. I was told that there is some incompatibility in the detergents of both. And we're talking maybe a difference of thousands of dollars a year on maintenance.

That set of videos is pretty convincing at face value but again, I wonder at the efficacy difference between different oil types. If the difference was so magnificently different, don't you think Royal Purple would already be the number one motor oil?

If it is a simple matter of "friction is friction" then I still maintain that our 2nd hand reconditioned parts would be rendered useless by years of mineral or substandard (non-Royal Purple) oil use. Which really does not make sense.

 

[csl]

Great. Let's do it during our gathering.

As for the super black issue, did u flush your old engine oil, i.e in your oil coolers etc? I do my oil change at 3k km for my RX-7s and 10k km for my R34. Actually after the 2nd oil change, the blue oil will be more effective.

Quote from Chris Yap Write-up:-

It is important to note that the first time this new oil is used, it progressively dislodges the build-ups from previous mineral base engine oils. At the same time, it forms a durable protective layer on all moving metal components in the engine. Therefore, it is recommended that second oil change be carried out after 10,000 kms – 20,000 kms for cars. On the second oil change, the thin molecular layer of Texas Revolution Titanium Engine Oil will be even more effective. The subsequent oil change interval can now be extended to every 20,000 kms.

More info:-
ROAR Lubricant




.

Got spare roar oil for sale or not? Wanna try lei

 

[InitialD]

savahn, I think we all can see the point that you are trying to make.
I used to have the same opinion as you too.

But that changed many years ago when I started using synthetic oil in my old car which was normal 4 piston engine and have never used mineral oil since then.

Basically, there are 2 schools of thoughts here. One do not believe in paying so much for synthetic over mineral when mineral works just as fine unless you are going racing or have a 400hp monster engine.

The other one, are people who don't mind paying more to pamper their engines with synthetic oil hoping that they will sleep better thinking synthetic would offer better protection to their precious engines. They also feel that their engine revs smoother with synthetic over mineral.

We all are entitled to our own opinions. There is no wrong or right here.

Just to clear the air, I didn't say Royal Purple Oil is the best motor oil in the world.
I only introduce it since it has been tested to work fine with rotary engines.

I believe that before you condemn something, you should go find out or test it out for yourself first.

For those of you who wanna know about the history of Royal Purple Oil, check out this link: http://www.oil-shop-uk.co.uk/acatalog/Royal_Purple_Oil.html

 

[RERider]

you should go find out or test it out for yourself first.

I agree with u on that.

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 07:42 PM ----------

Got spare roar oil for sale or not? Wanna try lei

CSL, yes I do have.

 

[savahn]

Hmmm... I don't believe I was condemning it. Just putting a lot of skepticism over the benefits.

Oh, and I apologize for any insults I may have thrown out.

Though I have to admit that in my position, I cannot afford to maintain with synthetic oil. One of my mates wanted me to switch to synthetic a few years ago but just didnt after seeing the price on that tin. Maybe after I fully upgraded all the parts for my car will I consider.

 

[csl]

Synthetic just for extra insurance, especially those who don't know about car or the environment defender who wanna replace oil at 10k km. Mineral is ok as long as the owner has enough knowledge to check the oil time by time. But when a person ask what oil is the best or what oil to use, I'll just tell him/her to use synthetic, because worry he/she will use mineral till 10k km

Oil is not as important as the temporarture control, especially in Malaysia climate. And not every person will monitor the temperature. Higher fuel consumption, engine failure and etc mostly cause by high temp.