Modification of the NA engine

[V8_nutter]

Don't know what's a drag setup? Drag engines usually last 1-2 races before complete teardown and really not a good benchmark. Likewise the cooling of the engine is not up to it as the engine barely gets hot enough with heat soak in a 400m run. Static ignition should be left at 5 deg BTDC with dynamic advance depending on your engine setup and of course engine load. You control the dynamic advance via your ECU maps. On an engine with big profile cams giving a lot of overlap and with big ports bleeding off dynamic compression the static compression ratio should be increase else you will lose low end power.

Static compression ratio = measured compression when engine is not running
Dynamic compression = compression of the engine when the engine is running.

You can get by relatively high compression if you run big cams. That is the way to go. If you're pinging you're most likely running lean or you have inadequate cooling of the intake charge. Having an airbox with CAI setup or better still water injection into your inlet manifold will help in this aspect.

Drag setup = maximum everything without thinking much of reliabity. We dont use big overlap cams for drag, we use high lift so that's the difference. FYI we running 4 throttle meaning that "airbox" is irrelevant.

llsaw,, running lean makes the "most" horsepower if you really want to know.

 

[V8_nutter]

What V8_nutter is tuning the engine for maximum power with excessive advance ignition which will not be applicable for street use. Hence you will find 97 or even 100 octane fuel is low. Of course with high racing octane fuel you can run higher compression, more advance ignition and more boost if turbo. But it just not practical for a daily street driven car. Like a friend i know running 4G63 big turbine for daily use at 1bar on 92 octane pump gas. then on the dragstrip with a flick of a switch the whole fuel + ignition mapping change to 1.6 bar but this setup can only be use with full high octane drag fuel only!!

LLsaw's car is a Daily Driven putra running high static 11.9 compression with high overlap cams which reduces dynamic compression. He's car is properly tune and map for our regular 97 octane gas churning out all possible maximum power with his setup. So when a car can run properly with 97 octane does not mean it is not tune maximum!!!

So if it is a street daily driven car, and the car pink or knock, then it is definitely that the car is NOT TUNE properly to be daily driven for 97 octane! Just simple as that. Track and race car is total different ball game.

The Honda B18C-R engine, even stock is 11.0 compression, and I'm sure many members are running fine on regular 97 oct gas.

The MME race spec B18C-R engine are slightly higher at 11.2 to 11.5 comp, and it had no problem running on 97 oct for 12 hours non-stop race! The MSS race spec B18C-R engine are even higher at 12 to 12.5 comp with high overlap cams doing perfectly fine on 97 oct gas for short race!! It boils down how you tune and map your fuel + ignition on ECU for the 97 gas you using and the appropriate use of the car.

Running 12.5 comp wif 97 octane ?? horsepower must be down, not maximum enough. Perhaps suitable for track race.

 

[Kelis]

Sometimes reliability is an issue too, V8_nutter.

 

[chris2000]

""Drag setup = maximum everything without thinking much of reliabity. We dont use big overlap cams for drag, we use high lift so that's the difference. FYI we running 4 throttle meaning that "airbox" is irrelevant.

llsaw,, running lean makes the "most" horsepower if you really want to know.""


Running 4 throttle doesn't mean an airbox is irrelevant eventhough it is meant for racing only. Have you seen that many race cars in Europe that runs Individual Throttle Body (ITB) aka 4 throttle for 4-cylinder engine, many have custom airbox made out of fiberglass or carbon fiber with a hose ducting cold fresh air from the outside. This is because the cooler the air the More Hosepower and also to reduce intake temp which in turns reduce ping/knock in an engine.

And who doesn't know that running a car lean will give more horsepower. There is only that small limit and margin of error, before high horsepower with ZERO reliability happens. That is why there is so many JUNK yard shop to sell you engine kosong when blow engine or melt a piston!! And mind you, I think "DRAG Setup = maximum power without thinking reliability" is rubbish! Every Drag car want to achieve highest power but not wanting it to blow at the drag strip! Don't tell me you built drag engines without thinking reliability and expect that it will blow during drag race.


""Running 12.5 comp wif 97 octane ?? horsepower must be down, not maximum enough. Perhaps suitable for track race.""

Like I said earlier the car is tune for max horsepower for 97 octane gas. So how to say horsepower is down and not maximum. Official sanctioned circuit race in Malaysia only allows 97 octane like a normal road car. Hence car is tune to maximum for use with 97 octane.

Of course if we were running some 100 octane or F1 or A1 race fuel, the tuning of the engine will be different to maximise more horsepower from these type of racing fuel.

What I am just trying to point out is that, No Matter What type of Fuel you are using, you will still be able to tune for MAXimum Power without knocking and pinging if the tuner has done everything right.

 

[llsaw]

Yes but running too lean also raise the temp to beyond acceptable levels. It's all in the compromises.

High lift cams will also bleed off the dynamic compression. Most NA big cams are high lift and also high duration.

Prooperly implemented individual throttle bodies or as you call it 4 throttle or 6 throttle or 8-12 throttle depending on how many cylinders you have do utilize carefully ducted airboxes and piping. Just check on the BTCC engines from previous years (before the single TB regulation) or even any modern NA race engine. One good drag example would be the latest Skunk2 racecars but those are probably running close to or more than 16.0:1 compression. If yours is filterless or running on sock-type filters and sucking in the hot air.. Oh well.. looks fierce though ;)

So irregardless of what a one race 400 m drag setup you want to use which is probably out of scope for 99% of the ZTH forumners, the original point is that 97 octane is ok for a high compression engine if you map and setup your engine carefully. And yes.. a higher compression engine running on this petrol will make more power than one with lesser compression again provided the parameters and engine mapping is optimum. There are however limits to the compression you can run with 97 octane petrol before all this becomes a waste of exercise and this exact figure depends on which tuner you speak too as the engine combination and setups are frankly endless..

 

[chris2000]

Oh yes, forget to add. When I say high overlap cams doesn't necessary means it is a low lift cams. Like the 12.5 compression honda engine was running high overlap engines with 12.5" Lift and 300 Duration. If this is not high then I don't know what is..

 

[Kelis]

""

Running 4 throttle doesn't mean an airbox is irrelevant eventhough it is meant for racing only. Have you seen that many race cars in Europe that runs Individual Throttle Body (ITB) aka 4 throttle for 4-cylinder engine, many have custom airbox made out of fiberglass or carbon fiber with a hose ducting cold fresh air from the outside. This is because the cooler the air the More Hosepower and also to reduce intake temp which in turns reduce ping/knock in an engine.

And who doesn't know that running a car lean will give more horsepower. There is only that small limit and margin of error, before high horsepower with ZERO reliability happens. That is why there is so many JUNK yard shop to sell you engine kosong when blow engine or melt a piston!! And mind you, I think "DRAG Setup = maximum power without thinking reliability" is rubbish! Every Drag car want to achieve highest power but not wanting it to blow at the drag strip! Don't tell me you built drag engines without thinking reliability and expect that it will blow during drag race.

I totally agree with chris2000 on these.

 

[V8_nutter]

""Drag setup = maximum everything without thinking much of reliabity. We dont use big overlap cams for drag, we use high lift so that's the difference. FYI we running 4 throttle meaning that "airbox" is irrelevant.

llsaw,, running lean makes the "most" horsepower if you really want to know.""


Running 4 throttle doesn't mean an airbox is irrelevant eventhough it is meant for racing only. Have you seen that many race cars in Europe that runs Individual Throttle Body (ITB) aka 4 throttle for 4-cylinder engine, many have custom airbox made out of fiberglass or carbon fiber with a hose ducting cold fresh air from the outside. This is because the cooler the air the More Hosepower and also to reduce intake temp which in turns reduce ping/knock in an engine.

And who doesn't know that running a car lean will give more horsepower. There is only that small limit and margin of error, before high horsepower with ZERO reliability happens. That is why there is so many JUNK yard shop to sell you engine kosong when blow engine or melt a piston!! And mind you, I think "DRAG Setup = maximum power without thinking reliability" is rubbish! Every Drag car want to achieve highest power but not wanting it to blow at the drag strip! Don't tell me you built drag engines without thinking reliability and expect that it will blow during drag race.


""Running 12.5 comp wif 97 octane ?? horsepower must be down, not maximum enough. Perhaps suitable for track race.""

Like I said earlier the car is tune for max horsepower for 97 octane gas. So how to say horsepower is down and not maximum. Official sanctioned circuit race in Malaysia only allows 97 octane like a normal road car. Hence car is tune to maximum for use with 97 octane.

Of course if we were running some 100 octane or F1 or A1 race fuel, the tuning of the engine will be different to maximise more horsepower from these type of racing fuel.

What I am just trying to point out is that, No Matter What type of Fuel you are using, you will still be able to tune for MAXimum Power without knocking and pinging if the tuner has done everything right.

You can't have ultra high ignition wif 97 octane, as simple as that. Can you max out your ignition wif that octane ?? can you boost out till 2.2 wif that octane ?? Dont be silly.

11.9 can be raise more wif thinner gaskets, we get that number wif a thicker 2 peice gaskets. If im using thinner 2 peice one, can 97 ron deal wif it ?? (wif ultra high ign). We use to play compression until it nearly maxed out (more than 13, 14) wif 83 piston & capalang sleeve using AMOIL race fuel, but still ignition cannot be max out. So youre saying 97 ron can maxed out horsepower ?? think again.

Of course we want to protect our engine from blowing, but once you lighten every single parts in engine, it's not reliable anymore. Track racing is different, engine setup also different, that's why track car is not quick compare to the drag setup. You can check 2.0 litre VTEC track car compare to 2.0 drag machine. Engine setup is completely different, i dont want to explain more, if you notice the different than you will know.

If you think that "engine" setup between drag and track are similar, than youre in lost lah.

 

[llsaw]

Sigh.. time and effort is clearly wasted here. Over and out..

 

[V8_nutter]

Yes but running too lean also raise the temp to beyond acceptable levels. It's all in the compromises.

High lift cams will also bleed off the dynamic compression. Most NA big cams are high lift and also high duration.

Prooperly implemented individual throttle bodies or as you call it 4 throttle or 6 throttle or 8-12 throttle depending on how many cylinders you have do utilize carefully ducted airboxes and piping. Just check on the BTCC engines from previous years (before the single TB regulation) or even any modern NA race engine. One good drag example would be the latest Skunk2 racecars but those are probably running close to or more than 16.0:1 compression. If yours is filterless or running on sock-type filters and sucking in the hot air.. Oh well.. looks fierce though ;)

So irregardless of what a one race 400 m drag setup you want to use which is probably out of scope for 99% of the ZTH forumners, the original point is that 97 octane is ok for a high compression engine if you map and setup your engine carefully. And yes.. a higher compression engine running on this petrol will make more power than one with lesser compression again provided the parameters and engine mapping is optimum. There are however limits to the compression you can run with 97 octane petrol before all this becomes a waste of exercise and this exact figure depends on which tuner you speak too as the engine combination and setups are frankly endless..

Eventhough im using airbox to get cold air, it still wont prevent knocking. Maybe very "slightly" only.

 

[chris2000]

""You can't have ultra high ignition wif 97 octane, as simple as that. Can you max out your ignition wif that octane ?? can you boost out till 2.2 wif that octane ?? Dont be silly.

11.9 can be raise more wif thinner gaskets, we get that number wif a thicker 2 peice gaskets. If im using thinner 2 peice one, can 97 ron deal wif it ?? (wif ultra high ign). We use to play compression until it nearly maxed out (more than 13, 14) wif 83 piston & capalang sleeve using AMOIL race fuel, but still ignition cannot be max out. So youre saying 97 ron can maxed out horsepower ?? think again.

Of course we want to protect our engine from blowing, but once you lighten every single parts in engine, it's not reliable anymore. Track racing is different, engine setup also different, that's why track car is not quick compare to the drag setup. You can check 2.0 litre VTEC track car compare to 2.0 drag machine. Engine setup is completely different, i dont want to explain more, if you notice the different than you will know.

If you think that "engine" setup between drag and track are similar, than youre in lost lah."""


Wa lau.. This is just wasting my time explaining... Either you don't understand my English or my english sucks.. What you guys think??

Thats why I just mentioned in earlier post, every car is tune to MAXIMUM for different application and usage like Street, Rally, Drift, Track and of course your Drag. Your Drag car tune for over 100 octane fuel on 400m is definetly going to be faster than a street or track car tune on 97 octane of the same engine cc over 400m. There is no doubt about it.

Like wise try taking your Drag machine and try to race round Sepang Circuit with another purpose built and tune Track car of the same engine cc. You will definitely loose there.

So can you get what we all trying to say. One is MAX POWER tune for 97 Octane gas and another one is MAX Power tune for over 100 octane gas. Just to put it simple what you do in your drag machine does not apply to the topic "Modification for NA car" for street use.

Enough said... Not going waste my time in this topic already..

 

[rodeeoo]

Sigh.. time and effort is clearly wasted here. Over and out..

Hello Bro, :)
Wahh... your car so powerfulll one....

I put my turbo in and then I come race with you...ok ah ???

 

[rollakid]

guys guys.. healthy debate is good, arguing is not.. it only make someone like me who's trying to learn something new got lost in the middle...

ok here's a question.. if anybody still bother to answer...

for NA tuning, 12:1 compresion ratio, ron97 fuel and ron102 fuel, which one can get more power? if ron102 have more power, doesn't it mean ron97 setup/ignition is milder than the other one?

 

[dean75]

It will be a waste to see these thread stop. I see it as a healthy
debate and gain more knowledge from these cool guys. Dont stop.
You guys might team up n future...make great cars and great team..

wah...i am so aroused already....LOL

 

[J101]

hi v8_nutter

just wanna know hows the power with your mivec with 4 throttle? any dyno results?

where did you custom your intake manifold? any particular shop you can recommend? any pix to show ?

what sort of engine management system or piggy back you running to run the quads? pls advise.

street setup or track/drag use only?

appreciate your feedback. thx.

j

FYI my mapping is correct and im running high ignition with "maximum" advance possible (aka drag setup). Im not running 4g93p head and im not running that inlet as well, im on mivec head wif fabricated 4 throttle. No point you running 288/292 with mild ignition and safe mapping, dont make sense to me. Disable the EGR code ?? what wiring do you mention ? im not using stock wirings.

 

[V8_nutter]

hi v8_nutter

just wanna know hows the power with your mivec with 4 throttle? any dyno results?

where did you custom your intake manifold? any particular shop you can recommend? any pix to show ?

what sort of engine management system or piggy back you running to run the quads? pls advise.

street setup or track/drag use only?

appreciate your feedback. thx.

j

Check your private message.

 

[dean75]

Check your private message.

bro.....can pm me too.......thanks.

 

[V8_nutter]

What's your plan dean ?

 

[dean75]

pm you bro....

 

[cooljas]

V8_nutter....advise me on how to built a 1.8mivec 4throttle v wat kinda management to use...im running on 4G93P.....thanks