Jun 3 vs TODA C - Durability / maintenance

[rizal_eg9]

wah, this type of tuning can costs you plenty of moolah! CTR cams alone, is about RM800 or so. Jun Type 2, cams alone, about RM2k++ : wah, over RM3k! and then, what happen to the CTR intake cam / Jun exhaust cam? buat tiang gol ke? aiyak... :confused_smile: pening, pening...

hehe..finally this honda tread come to life.. The type R cam can be purchase individually at Exceptional and it is not that expensive for the ITR cam but itu dulu la. Now maybe the price is different.The exhaust CAM is the same regardless of CTR or ITR i believe. Only the intake cam is different by 2 or 3 (98 spec ITR cam is the same with CTR) degrees and that you can't off set with the camshaft pulley. It is the degree at the lobe.

 

[J101]

honda-tech maybe a good place to learn and read about but dont forget that they spend alot of money and time doing backyard r&d and fooling around to make those kind of statement. furthermore their block setup are ironed and strong to push the power. not many ppl here wanna spend time and money and show their dyno graphs here and prove things do work sometimes.

about the cams breaking, i answered in one of the thread recently.

somebody over Honda-tech actually recommended JUN2/TypeR combo for the most cost effective and best midrange power for street.

JUN Type 2 for the intake, and CTR/ITR for the exhaust.


how did that happened? :shocked:

how is a camshaft supposed to be snapped when it's just rolling, not spinning? That's whack!

 

[J101]

i noticed 2nd hand cam buyers do not ask for the cam-spec sheet or the small paper that dictates all the information needed to tune the cams. sometimes i wonder how the really extract the power from the cam without all the detailed informations? suka-suka pusing cam pulley..agak agak, lock the cam pulley and wallah!

too much based on other customers car. too much hassle going to the dyno. too much degrees on the cam gears to test 1 degree at a time.

thats why until to this day we have a lot of different results even with the CTR cams. ha ha

yup..........it's from the Si website which I frequent a lot.

If I were to send my car to install cams, I wouldn't send it to a normal service center. I (and presumably all of us) would go to a mech which has experience in installing these parts and ofcourse we'd go for the mechanic who knows how to install AND tune a particular brand of cam. Example, some mech are good with JUN, some are good with TODA. If I were to ask a mech "u biasa pasang TODA and tune TODA cam kan ?" and if the fella says sumthing like "Caaaaaaaannnn waaannnn" or "Wa sudah lama bikin ini punya barang maaa......." or anything simillar like that and if the end result is anything less than satisfactory.......I would call him bodoh.......it's not just a theory.......I have done that before.

 

[J101]

tsk tsk tsk there u go again buddy.. ha ha ha ha

if all these comparison between brands also include price for each set then it wud be better...:regular_smile:

 

[J101]

dun be sad zamiroo2,
by bolting the camshafts dun make power unless u have a good strong block setup. my personal advice would be to do the block first, then the cams. have a good strong base and you wouldnt have to go into dilemma which cams to choose as strong block maintains good power, not cams.

i really intrested in m22x... but till now nobody malaysian have great result in low, mid n top end compare to jun3 as per omniman claimed... sad...

 

[Oderf]

agree...most of us must be based on try n error only...even setting the cam advance n retard...:Not_Impressed:

 

[rizal_eg9]

i noticed 2nd hand cam buyers do not ask for the cam-spec sheet or the small paper that dictates all the information needed to tune the cams. sometimes i wonder how the really extract the power from the cam without all the detailed informations? suka-suka pusing cam pulley..agak agak, lock the cam pulley and wallah!

too much based on other customers car. too much hassle going to the dyno. too much degrees on the cam gears to test 1 degree at a time.

thats why until to this day we have a lot of different results even with the CTR cams. ha ha

The cam spec sheet normally indicate the CAM centre lobe. It is not for advancing or retarding the CAM. It is only the base line. For OEM honda cam. the centre lobe can be determined by the hole on the cam and the cam corver. It is line up properly, that is the centre lobe.

For aftermarket cam, u need a dial gauge and a degree wheel, it can be a hassle to determine it.

 

[J101]

i never thought this topic would come up in this forum. thought its only being debated and discussed during teh-tarik sessions.

still a very subjective topic until we see a full engine spec with the cams setup by our local riders and not usa. if got pictures even better, track or drag. if too many secrets secrets then no need to talk about it, ppl in other countries are already busy with k-series.

i also noticed nobody talks about the quietly jun type 4 or b16a type 4 cams which is the so-called biggest cam in sunway unless they have type-d on the shelves for sale.

i noticed our local scene bring too much "race onry cams" like type 3 and type c which hinders the thought of buying jun type1, type 2 or toda a and b. too much over powered cars and power hunger drivers which are willing to spend so much. if the smaller race cams were to be in the market, i believe CTRs are no more to be talked about.

chris2000 experiences are worth to take note as i reckoned he has done serious trial and errors on the sepang track. i hope to see more feedback from you chris.

cheers

 

[soulfly]

isn't that Toda Spec B had rought idle compare to JUN's or little brother the Spec A? since the lift is quite high for the lower cams. but of course... the midrange power is understandable.

 

[WalBro(Apexi)]

ctr vs jun3... b16a with almost similar setup... 1st n 2nd ctr lead... but 2nd it'll start to overtake due to >9.5k rpm... 3rd jun3 will overtake n lead... 4th same...
ctr vs todaC... almost similar setup too... 1st, 2nd, 3rd ctr lead... if 3rd cant be able to overtake... it'll not... for street daily economical n power driving... ctr is worth... jun3 gud for race...

i really intrested in m22x... but till now nobody malaysian have great result in low, mid n top end compare to jun3 as per omniman claimed... sad...

sorry u wrong.we have the m22x result already few month ago in malaysia.check the track car in c-sky klang.they compare toda,jun and rm.the best feel is gain by rm.will go dyno soon......will post up the dyno compare to zth soon.anyway we have alot result in honda-tech about rm m22x.nice choice....anyway,if who interest can look for me booking for the cams.Thanx!

 

[crower75]

i noticed 2nd hand cam buyers do not ask for the cam-spec sheet or the small paper that dictates all the information needed to tune the cams. sometimes i wonder how the really extract the power from the cam without all the detailed informations? suka-suka pusing cam pulley..agak agak, lock the cam pulley and wallah!

too much based on other customers car. too much hassle going to the dyno. too much degrees on the cam gears to test 1 degree at a time.

thats why until to this day we have a lot of different results even with the CTR cams. ha ha

Not just 2nd hand customers bro......even those buying brand new cams. I have a few customers who straight away ask "which one more power ??? Jun or SkuNk2 ?" Never even bother to ask the specs.....not even after the deal is closed......but what to do........customer is always right.......(not !)

 

[crower75]

i never thought this topic would come up in this forum. thought its only being debated and discussed during teh-tarik sessions.

still a very subjective topic until we see a full engine spec with the cams setup by our local riders and not usa. if got pictures even better, track or drag. if too many secrets secrets then no need to talk about it, ppl in other countries are already busy with k-series.

i also noticed nobody talks about the quietly jun type 4 or b16a type 4 cams which is the so-called biggest cam in sunway unless they have type-d on the shelves for sale.

i noticed our local scene bring too much "race onry cams" like type 3 and type c which hinders the thought of buying jun type1, type 2 or toda a and b. too much over powered cars and power hunger drivers which are willing to spend so much. if the smaller race cams were to be in the market, i believe CTRs are no more to be talked about.

chris2000 experiences are worth to take note as i reckoned he has done serious trial and errors on the sepang track. i hope to see more feedback from you chris.

cheers

This is true as well. Just before CNY I went to almost all the popular shops in Sunway.....asked for JUN stage 1....nope sorry dun have........onli have JUN stage 3 ......same goes for crower stuffs....only the hard edge ones are on the shelves, pretty sad to say the least.

 

[chris2000]

Wa lau... Only one day so many replies and feedback...

DCVtec, soulfly - Before cam broke i was doing one flying lap at consistent 9k rpm, then on the cooling lap, on the back straight as i shift to 5th and at about 6.5k rpm the cam just gave way!!

Jonny9 - Before you can set your AFR and ignition maps, you will have to set or dial in the cam degreeing.. And what to set or how much to set on each cam is difficult part. The higher the lift and the longer the duration the harder to set it properly.

ace79 - 'sweet spot' is what i felt was the ideal setting giving good throttle respond and a balance of mid range and top end. I wouldn't know exactly how horses the CTR cams will versus a stock B16A. I have a set of CTR cams that i do use for MME spec engines. They are much easier to set and offer very good respond particularly at low to mid but of course never the top end power like a full race cams. and CTR tend to peak its power at 8k to 8.5k rpm.

J101 - Thanks for your kind comment

 

[chris2000]

This is true as well. Just before CNY I went to almost all the popular shops in Sunway.....asked for JUN stage 1....nope sorry dun have........onli have JUN stage 3 ......same goes for crower stuffs....only the hard edge ones are on the shelves, pretty sad to say the least.

Yup, I think it is not only Malaysia and it happens else where..

People are always talking about which cam make the most peak power and talk about only Jun 3, Toda C, Skunk2 S2/3 and other RACE ONLY CAMS. Do you all know on STREET USE, how often do you rev your car past 8.5k rpm?? Do you all know how it feels like using RACE ONLY CAMS on your daily use Honda especially in the morning and after work rush hour?? Couple with ligthen flywheel and uprated clutch, it is a real bitch to drive!! Everyone just have to understand STREET USE have to use STREET PERFORMANCE CAMS for relaibility, economical and most important Drivability!! Of course if can, we want something more power than CTR cams.. haha..

Last year, I was also looking high and low, all over KL, just for a MILD CAM like JUN 1/2, TODA A/B or some street cams that can give slight better power than CTR, but none to be found except for the RACE ONLY CAMS.

So i was pretty fed up with it, and decided to get someone to bring in STREET CAMS for me from USA and JAPAN. Waiting for it to come in April to do more testing.. :regular_smile:

 

[ace79]

Yup, I think it is not only Malaysia and it happens else where..

People are always talking about which cam make the most peak power and talk about only Jun 3, Toda C, Skunk2 S2/3 and other RACE ONLY CAMS. Do you all know on STREET USE, how often do you rev your car past 8.5k rpm?? Do you all know how it feels like using RACE ONLY CAMS on your daily use Honda especially in the morning and after work rush hour?? Couple with ligthen flywheel and uprated clutch, it is a real bitch to drive!! Everyone just have to understand STREET USE have to use STREET PERFORMANCE CAMS for relaibility, economical and most important Drivability!! Of course if can, we want something more power than CTR cams.. haha..

Last year, I was also looking high and low, all over KL, just for a MILD CAM like JUN 1/2, TODA A/B or some street cams that can give slight better power than CTR, but none to be found except for the RACE ONLY CAMS.

So i was pretty fed up with it, and decided to get someone to bring in STREET CAMS for me from USA and JAPAN. Waiting for it to come in April to do more testing.. :regular_smile:

yep, i myself have tried to check locally the prices of Toda B, but to no avail. These big - named shops in Horsepower Street ( aka Sunway ) give me the same answer : Buat apa Toda B? You angkat Toda C lagi bagus! More power! ... like I get to drive all the way to 9000 rpm everyday meh? I am seriously interested to learn more from your past experiences, chris2000. say, when you get your cams, can I join in your project? Would love to learn how to wrench my own engine lah. anyway, CTR cams good for up to 8.5k rpm only, eh?

 

[soulfly]

Some body can clarify, is it possible to get separate intake/exhaust cams from JUN? JUN2intake/TRexhaust combo sounds interesting.

 

[ace79]

dun be sad zamiroo2,
by bolting the camshafts dun make power unless u have a good strong block setup. my personal advice would be to do the block first, then the cams. have a good strong base and you wouldnt have to go into dilemma which cams to choose as strong block maintains good power, not cams.

J101, can you please elaborate on strong block? should I go for B16B pistons? what about rods? rod bearings, i think GSR's could do a good job. and sleeves, as long as no bad, deep scratches, and the initial sleeve hone job is still in good condition, then no need to change sleeves, rite? and of course, PnP the head for more airflow ( should be smooth as well ), nice 3 angle valve job ( to ease airflow, so air flows faster : more power rite? ) and smooth out the exhaust port. I've heard that for B16A, no need to widen the exhaust ports too much, just a bit and sharpen up the edges inside the exhaust port for smoother exhaust gas flow, is this right?

 

[J101]

u can normally order 1 camshaft stick if you order directly from them, i mean JUN itself or through their dealers. u can try asking lin hup seng for the single ITR exhaust brand new, if they have any.

Some body can clarify, is it possible to get separate intake/exhaust cams from JUN? JUN2intake/TRexhaust combo sounds interesting.

 

[soulfly]

J101, can you please elaborate on strong block? should I go for B16B pistons?

You can refer to this link for almost any other compression ratio with different block/head/pistons combination except for b16b PCT pistons which they didn't calculate properly (considering the deck height of B16B and B16A is actually different). I'd say the B16B piston will give very high compression ratio, depends on which block/head combo.... expect more than 12:1-ish ratios.

For everything else, I'm not sure, I'm no expert.

p/s: PCT piston in a stock B16A block with PR3 head gets you 11.64:1 for the CR.

Other source : http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=717928

 

[chris2000]

J101 - I think it is not necessary to have super duper strong block to achieve high horsepower. I feel as long as the bottom end is healthy like no compression lost or lose pistons or rings, good respected figures can be done matching the right head jobs with the right cams and valvetrain, intake and exhaust. I saw some clips of the Omniman DVD and it does shows and proved this. Yet to get a hold of the copy to watch the full movie. But going to place an order for it from states.

I think you need very strong bottom end only for super high revs and turbo only.

ace79 - Head job i think is really a magic job man.. so much power can be done with it but you can also equally destroy the power of an engine. I think CTR cams were design for the B16B engine to peak at 8.2 - 8.4k rpm. With adjustable cam pully most people try to shift the power higher to say 8.5k to 8.8k rpm. But though the power peak there, i have still seen many track cars with CTR cams still pulling to 9k to 9.5k with them, but of course when you dyno that engine you will see power already peak at 8.5 to 8.8k rpm. I'm no tuner or mechanic, so i don't know whether you will learn much with me, and i'm sure those mechanics or honda tuner will be more knowledgable than me. I am still learning everyday, and like to do different things from the norm, and no one will truly teach me, so got to do that trial and error thing lor.