hehe.. i tot the amazing type r surbo thing gona come out again.. hahaha
42 CFM Air flow on air filter(enough?)
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Good idea, but the downside is that I don't think ur fan can go that fast to improve the air flow intake. Check the RPM of the fan. Another matter for you to think about is that the RPM of the fan would be constant regardless of the RPM of the engine. So at low engine RPM, the fan might have higher RPM forcing air to flow to the intake manifold, this would screw up your Air Flow Sensor (AFS) reading, fueling would be over rich coz your engine would think that there is a lot of air flowing into the engine so engine would not run smooth. Then say at high engine RPM, your fan's RPM might be slower, so instead of forcing more air into the intake, the fan would now cause more resistance to the air intake...
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can i know how much this fan cost???
Good idea, but the downside is that I don't think ur fan can go that fast to improve the air flow intake. Check the RPM of the fan. Another matter for you to think about is that the RPM of the fan would be constant regardless of the RPM of the engine. So at low engine RPM, the fan might have higher RPM forcing air to flow to the intake manifold, this would screw up your Air Flow Sensor (AFS) reading, fueling would be over rich coz your engine would think that there is a lot of air flowing into the engine so engine would not run smooth. Then say at high engine RPM, your fan's RPM might be slower, so instead of forcing more air into the intake, the fan would now cause more resistance to the air intake... [/b][/quote] i dun think so. A supercharger specialist/experienced user can tell you that your statements were wrong. |
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the website selling the e-ram, supercharger on the airfilter. How come you mention is wrong ler ?
wrong in the case i using cpu fan. that just a guessing.
no idea how much fuel it may eat up only if use the supercharger on it, becoz may cause too much air.
and one more, the charger can be on and off. FAN design , u could actually look at the ebay. is didnt block the air flow, just a 2 cent.. look at the design..
What i wan to tell in this thread is... new stuff.
is supercharge blower.
For supercharger, can add on extra,. with bolt on. and it cost like mad.
Air charger is just to make ur burning cleaning, somehow play for fun if u wan to waste some fuel, then ON it.
:( my comment always wrong one.
wrong in the case i using cpu fan. that just a guessing.
no idea how much fuel it may eat up only if use the supercharger on it, becoz may cause too much air.
and one more, the charger can be on and off. FAN design , u could actually look at the ebay. is didnt block the air flow, just a 2 cent.. look at the design..
What i wan to tell in this thread is... new stuff.
is supercharge blower.
For supercharger, can add on extra,. with bolt on. and it cost like mad.
Air charger is just to make ur burning cleaning, somehow play for fun if u wan to waste some fuel, then ON it.
:( my comment always wrong one.
I didn't say that you were wrong.. i mean trex92 (hmmm drex lawan trex.. haha!!)
See...
it's not the matter of fan RPM, it's the flow rate, measure in liter/minute or cubic feet/minute. 2 fans with the same RPM can have different flow rate, due to the number and the design of the blades.
Engine intake (air) flow rate is based on the engine RPM and the volumetric efficiency (V.E.), not the flow-rate the fan/e-supercharger can provide. The fan/e-supercharger do provide high flow rate if stand alone. But in the intake hose, they will just increase the V.E. If powerfull enough, compressed the air in the intake system (V.E. > 100%).
For example, engine needs 100 CFM, fan spins at 2700 rpm, which when it's stand alone, can provide 220CFM, the engine will only take slighly higher than 100 CFM... maybe 10% higher, and increases the V.E. to 95% (if, let say the stock intake provide 85% of V.E.).
About the sensor signalling. See, the fan/e-supercharge is installed before the filter element, and the MAF is located behind the filter element. The MAF measures only what the engine takes. Futhermore, most of the car is now running on MAP sensor (even further behind, in the intake manifold) instead of MAF sensor. Like wise, higher engine intake, higher pressure, higher reading, more fuel).
So, your engine take slightly more air because the V.E. has been improved, MAF/MAP sensor measures slightly higher flow rate (or manifold absolute pressure), as high as what the engine swallowed, injectors inject slightly more fuel because the ECU told them so, you will get an accurate mixture, at bigger volume, combusted in a same cylinder.. You get more power.
Not correct also if your fan can provide a higher flow-rate than the engine intake at red-line revolution. It'll not block the flow.
******************
It's not a matter of "can work or not", it's a matter of "right material, right design and durability. If the fan concept doesn't work, a belt-driven supercharger will not work as well. But why it works?
p/s: Dun ask me what is V.E., MAP, MAF and the theories behind the story of "how EFI works). Read up.
See...
it's not the matter of fan RPM, it's the flow rate, measure in liter/minute or cubic feet/minute. 2 fans with the same RPM can have different flow rate, due to the number and the design of the blades.
Engine intake (air) flow rate is based on the engine RPM and the volumetric efficiency (V.E.), not the flow-rate the fan/e-supercharger can provide. The fan/e-supercharger do provide high flow rate if stand alone. But in the intake hose, they will just increase the V.E. If powerfull enough, compressed the air in the intake system (V.E. > 100%).
For example, engine needs 100 CFM, fan spins at 2700 rpm, which when it's stand alone, can provide 220CFM, the engine will only take slighly higher than 100 CFM... maybe 10% higher, and increases the V.E. to 95% (if, let say the stock intake provide 85% of V.E.).
About the sensor signalling. See, the fan/e-supercharge is installed before the filter element, and the MAF is located behind the filter element. The MAF measures only what the engine takes. Futhermore, most of the car is now running on MAP sensor (even further behind, in the intake manifold) instead of MAF sensor. Like wise, higher engine intake, higher pressure, higher reading, more fuel).
So, your engine take slightly more air because the V.E. has been improved, MAF/MAP sensor measures slightly higher flow rate (or manifold absolute pressure), as high as what the engine swallowed, injectors inject slightly more fuel because the ECU told them so, you will get an accurate mixture, at bigger volume, combusted in a same cylinder.. You get more power.
Not correct also if your fan can provide a higher flow-rate than the engine intake at red-line revolution. It'll not block the flow.
******************
It's not a matter of "can work or not", it's a matter of "right material, right design and durability. If the fan concept doesn't work, a belt-driven supercharger will not work as well. But why it works?
p/s: Dun ask me what is V.E., MAP, MAF and the theories behind the story of "how EFI works). Read up.
e-RAM, e-supercharger, e-turbocharger.... all are NOT NEW. And they don't provide your clean burning. Haiyoh.. <_<
wooi.. i am not the master lar.... just to share what i know lar..
Okie, maybe i should try to explain more on what I said. Imagine this scenario, car is at idle at 800rpm say. So now, let's say we are using a CPU fan which the RPM of the fan is constant and that the RPM of the fan is higher and is sucking more air than is required by the engine at 800rpm. The air that is sucked by the CPU fan is connected to the Air Flow Sensor (AFS) and then to the air filter. When the fan sucks more air than is required by the engine it goes thru the AFS, the ECU is bluffed into thinking that the engine is taking in more air than it actually is (same concept as Apexi's S-AFC, but then again AFC settings can be adjusted). Hence, the ECU would increase the fueling ratio. This increase of fueling ratio would cause an over rich mixture and cause improper engine combustion (too much fuel with too little air) and premature engine detonation might result.
Now, let's look at the reversed aspect. Engine is at 6000 rpm, and the fan's RPM is lower and taking in less air than is required by the engine. The fan blades of the fan would be spinning too slowly to be of much use. So now, the fan would act as an obstruction to the smooth air flow of the intake.
When you look at superchargers and turbochargers, the speed of the fan spins at variable RPM dependant on the RPM of the engine. Superchargers are connected to the timing belt (i think) and turbochargers are connected to the exhaust. When the engine RPM increases, it would lead to an increase in the speed of the timing belt and exhaust hence faster fan speed superchargers and turbochargers.
read my previous explaination.
opppss... just saw ur this reply before i put my reply up above... :D
Okie, i understand what you meant on e-supercharger. My point is that e-supercharger is not impossible. E-supercharger can be done but it is not as easy as putting in a CPU fan. Okie, anyway, my response is :-
1. Yes, the flow rate is dependant on the size of the fan (ie bigger turbochargers mean higher turbo boost pressure). However, my point is that a CPU fan has a constant rpm if you just connect it to a power supply. Regardless of the size and design of the fan, the moment you connect the fan to a 12V supply, the speed of the fan and the air it sucks is constant unless you think of using a variable power supply. :)
2. Yes, i understand your point with with CFM. But as what you said, engine needs 100 CFM, and the fans provides 220 CFM so the engine gets slightly higher than 100 CFM. But the ECU would think that the engine is taking 220CFM as the intake air passes thru the AFS and AFS reading is 220CFM, right? So the ECU would inject in fuel for 220CFM of air rite? :P The AFS is not just for show remember? regardless of where you put the fan, as long as the air that the fan sucks passes thru the AFS the AFS measures how much air intake is flowed to the engine and tells the ECU that. The ECU would then decide much petrol to inject. Like my above reply, think in the sense of Apexi's S-AFC.
3. Now, if your fan which is sucking air at a constant rate, and it can still "provide a higher flow-rate than the engine intake at red-line revolution" then you are seriously in trouble when the engine is at idle. My argument on this point was that the fan being at constant RPM, remember?
But I do still agree with you on the concept of e-supercharger. It can work, in fact i gave this idea much thought too long time ago. However, another point interestingly to know is that nothing comes free. In a physics sense, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Look at the downsides of these:-
Superchargers are driven by the timing belt of the car (I think). So superchargers actually drain power from the engine directly in order to run the superchargers.
Turbochargers are driven by the exhaust air of the engine. Hence the energy is converted from the exhaust to assist with the intake. When you use your exhaust air for this purpose, it causes a disturbance in the exhaust flow which might in turn affect the performance. But this power drain is not as bad as a supercharger.
However there are ways to counter (or at least minimise) the above downfalls of the superchargers and turbochargers, that is not to let it run at too low engine RPMs when there is not enough power output from the engine.
Now, for e-superchargers' case. E-supercharger would be using electrical power from the car right. The electricity has to come from somewhere, be it the battery or direct from the engine's alternator. So, there would be a power drain too from the engine as ultimately a higher electrical load would cause the alternator to run constantly. Alternator as we all know runs from the engine and drains power. This problem is the same faced by the electric car companies at the moment. The electricity for electric cars has to come from somewhere. Currently most of the electric power plants are generated by diesel. Hence using more electric cars would cause a higher demand from these power plants and in turn would cause pollution too.
Well, anyway, that's my 2 cent's worth on the topic. :D
yes, i totally agree on your statements about the e-supercharger and e-turbocharger.. i thing we share the same opinion on them... the energy consumption, battery drain, $$ (that's not worth), ....
but one thing: the flow-rate
See,
I believe that the e-supercharger is also running at constant RPM too. By why it works?
This is because the actual air flow is controlled by the TB opening, not the fan. No matter how fast the fan spins, how large the air mass it can generate (outside of the intake hose, stand alone), the actual air flow is controlled by the TB opening. During idling, the butterfly is almost closed. The idling speed is controlled by various mechanism and it's almost 100% self-regulating/close-loop. So, the flow is still the same eventhough the fan is spinning crazily. Agree?
Take this as example. Get a hair dryer, tuck it into a pipe and block the other end. Run the hair dryer (no heating, just blow, dun cook your hand), will you get a flow in the pipe? NO.. at the most the air will be pressurized a lil'.
but one thing: the flow-rate
See,
I believe that the e-supercharger is also running at constant RPM too. By why it works?
This is because the actual air flow is controlled by the TB opening, not the fan. No matter how fast the fan spins, how large the air mass it can generate (outside of the intake hose, stand alone), the actual air flow is controlled by the TB opening. During idling, the butterfly is almost closed. The idling speed is controlled by various mechanism and it's almost 100% self-regulating/close-loop. So, the flow is still the same eventhough the fan is spinning crazily. Agree?
Take this as example. Get a hair dryer, tuck it into a pipe and block the other end. Run the hair dryer (no heating, just blow, dun cook your hand), will you get a flow in the pipe? NO.. at the most the air will be pressurized a lil'.
and yes.. if.. Only if you thing that the fan will create a problem at idling, which is possible for some idling mechanisms. Use a trottle controlled switch to activate the fan at above idling RPM.. settle. That's how the e-supercharger work.
As i said, it's the matter of design, material and durability. This will work but not by using the 42CFM CPU fan...
Yes, and thing about the energy consumption too. As trex mentioned, the power comes from either the battery or the alternator, and the engine needs to work harder for it.. with, let say, 10% gain in HP, 8% will b used for the generation of the energy. You only get 2% clean power. For those who wants to try it out, you judge by yourself - with all the huzzle and $$ spent, is it worth for the % gain?
As i said, it's the matter of design, material and durability. This will work but not by using the 42CFM CPU fan...
Yes, and thing about the energy consumption too. As trex mentioned, the power comes from either the battery or the alternator, and the engine needs to work harder for it.. with, let say, 10% gain in HP, 8% will b used for the generation of the energy. You only get 2% clean power. For those who wants to try it out, you judge by yourself - with all the huzzle and $$ spent, is it worth for the % gain?
oh yeah... sorry for separating my comment into a fe posts..
about the MAF sensor (AFS as you would call it). It's almost 100% located after the filter element. Some cars dun even have it.
The filter element is a good buffer for the messy flow... therefore the problem of messing up the reading will not arise..
Remember, as safety measurement, the fan/e-supercharger/e-ram... are ALL located far before the filter element.
Well, anyway, that's my 2 cent's worth on the topic too. :D haha!! Really enjoying the discussion.
about the MAF sensor (AFS as you would call it). It's almost 100% located after the filter element. Some cars dun even have it.
The filter element is a good buffer for the messy flow... therefore the problem of messing up the reading will not arise..
Remember, as safety measurement, the fan/e-supercharger/e-ram... are ALL located far before the filter element.
Well, anyway, that's my 2 cent's worth on the topic too. :D haha!! Really enjoying the discussion.
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hie guys, I have question for u guy. When i am drive sometime engine signage will pop up at my meter and it will gone after few sec. sometime it never come out. Why ? I am driving waja
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