1.6 cars, which is better?

[kyheng]

Not to say I demand alot or condamning you, the chart is good, but don't know when is this chart made. But if follow number 0108 based on the link you give, I guess this chart is made in year 2001 and month of August. 5 years ago everything is still cheap, now we are talking present where everything is expensive, the best example, petrol price. Futhermore the material cost never state clearly what metal is used, the so-called facts and figures that you give still unreal. Cannot be deny that material used is part of the cost.
You should show us some charts that show using aluminium cost how much and using pure steel cost how much. This is the best way to prove how true is your statement. With this type of unclear and misleading chart, anyone also can do.

 

[si|verfish]

At least he is showing some proof. Where's yours to back up your theories.

 

[Ingolstadt]

At least he is showing some proof. Where's yours to back up your theories.

you guys have very good patience. i think this guy is just some stubborn kid who doesn't wanna back off. dats it

 

[Ingolstadt]

I didnt even read the beginning.

If a post like this lasts for 5 pages, I thought surely there is something interesting about it.

you should read from the start. then you'll know why we all end up so speechless.

 

[Zeroed]

Whoa. I felt my intelligence degrade reading through this thread. Is he deliberately doing this?


Seriously, guys. I wouldnt bother. I dont care if someone wants to get a whiplash injury.

 

[omnikron]

Not to say I demand alot or condamning you, the chart is good, but don't know when is this chart made. But if follow number 0108 based on the link you give, I guess this chart is made in year 2001 and month of August. 5 years ago everything is still cheap, now we are talking present where everything is expensive, the best example, petrol price. Futhermore the material cost never state clearly what metal is used, the so-called facts and figures that you give still unreal. Cannot be deny that material used is part of the cost.
You should show us some charts that show using aluminium cost how much and using pure steel cost how much. This is the best way to prove how true is your statement. With this type of unclear and misleading chart, anyone also can do.

http://www.metalprices.com/ ------> latest metal prices

steel prices at Nov 2003 -----> Jan 2004 (inc surcharge)
Hot Rolled Coil $280 -----> $450-$480
Cold Reduced Coil $360 -----> $530-$580
Hot dipped galvanized sheet $375 -----> $550-$600

Source : http://www.uksteel.org.uk/matsurv.pdf (page 5)

still the point is that material cost for a small part of the car's cost, futhermore, how much steel or aluminumis used is also unknown. but i DO know that at year 2001 (assumed) an Audi A8 cost $3100 to make and the cost is roughly 30%. Companies refuse to release their latest information to the public because the information may give their competitors some advantage. information about a car 5 years ago (assumed) is pretty reasonable unlees someone on the inside gave us a better idea.

before attacking my statements, please back your statements with facts first.

what about your arguement about :
Chain vs Belt driven engines ?
thicker metal equals to safer cars?
Mitsu Lancer is safer or as safe as altis/civic?

if you say that "With this type of unclear and misleading chart, anyone also can do." please let me see yours and how you would do it.

 

[kyheng]

I think my point or arguement is stated very early already and I never said thicker metal means saver car, only is it worth to pay more to get some thin metal? My question is just simple as like this, only you all don't understand. And must thanks to the small kid also, Ingolstadt for his childish statement for making this happens.
With the metal price is keep on increasing year by year, are you sure that it still stand 30% of the total cost? Nobody will know, but 1 thing for sure is their staff's salary is increasing every year. Take their CEO for example, his pay will be in million per year, with every year 10% also enough already. Who will pay him? Sure is from the sales of car. With all the metal price is keeping on increasing, don't care is steel or aluminium, if they still want the material cost to be at 30%, they have to find ways to reduce the cost and to pay the CEO and other high ranking staffs. With car industries so competative, most of them will try to slash down the selling price and at the same time maximising profit, so what step they have to take in order to survive? They have to introduce all this so-called safety fetures to attrac people. Maybe you will laugh at me, say I'm stupid or childish, but this is he fact that hidden behind.
Another thing, what format do you want for the chart? Powerpoint, Excel, Word or Pdf? Do you want the material cost to be 40%?

 

[BlackSamurai]

i didn't follow the thread for a while, never know it turn to be like that.
kyheng, before you emphasize on your owne "safety theory", i'll suggest you to read some article about Honda G-CON, Toyota GOA and others valueble information available over the web which tell you the latest safety chasis design thrend.

Car manufacturer used to design their car to be SOLID, heavy and muscular to absort the impact in the past (so i don't blame you if kyheng is 50 years-old uncle), but it will still hurt the passenger in the cabin, things change. With all the technology and computer help, car manufacturer now able to design the chasis to protect the passenger in the cabin not by absorbing the force but to divert the force to other area.

and if you think Asia car manufacturer always put the safety at the last issue then you are very wrong, do you aware that Merc need to recall all the baby Merc because it failed to pass the minimum safety standard (And Merc put the product on sales even thought they knew it)? Safety is always Hyundai's No.1 concern, check out Hyundai latest car, all pass major safety crash test with high score. Do not forget about Honda G-CON, Toyota GOA design.

igno, si|verfish and others' reply may sound hash to you, but those facts are quite true (except for Hyundai Elantra 1.6, ok?).

 

[omnikron]

I think my point or arguement is stated very early already and I never said thicker metal means saver car, only is it worth to pay more to get some thin metal? My question is just simple as like this, only you all don't understand. And must thanks to the small kid also, Ingolstadt for his childish statement for making this happens.
With the metal price is keep on increasing year by year, are you sure that it still stand 30% of the total cost? Nobody will know, but 1 thing for sure is their staff's salary is increasing every year. Take their CEO for example, his pay will be in million per year, with every year 10% also enough already. Who will pay him? Sure is from the sales of car. With all the metal price is keeping on increasing, don't care is steel or aluminium, if they still want the material cost to be at 30%, they have to find ways to reduce the cost and to pay the CEO and other high ranking staffs. With car industries so competative, most of them will try to slash down the selling price and at the same time maximising profit, so what step they have to take in order to survive? They have to introduce all this so-called safety fetures to attrac people. Maybe you will laugh at me, say I'm stupid or childish, but this is he fact that hidden behind.
Another thing, what format do you want for the chart? Powerpoint, Excel, Word or Pdf? Do you want the material cost to be 40%?

to cut cost, there are numerous ways to cut cost. Toyota's implementation of JIT as well as their Kaizen spirit within the company, Toyota has achieved a very good safety rating even for their lower ranged cars.

another way to lower cost is to achieve econimies of scale, you mentioned that salaries and cost of materials are always rising, but you have fail to see that both Toyota and Honda is tring to sell their cars more and more to achive better economies of scale.

"Toyota's sales in March set a monthly record with a 6.9% rise over last year to 217,286 Toyota, Scion and Lexus vehicles. Cars rose 0.6% to 117,299 units, while trucks increased 16% to 99,987 units. " source - http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/060413/323/g94pm.html

"Toyota recorded its 13th consecutive year of growth in the UK in 2005." source - http://www.carpages.co.uk/toyota/toyota-sales-07-01-06.asp

i'm going to quote you
"For me a car front bonet must be though enough to stand a certain hit impact. A simple thing to consider, the harder metal used, it can make the impact time longer, thus our safety is more secure." source - http://zerotohundred.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=83522&page=3

first of all, that cart was not made by me, a simple google would reveal that chart. the fact that companies would not reveal their latest info can be many reasons and 1 reason i can think of is that it might give competitors an extra advantage.

for you to post your comment with out backing it up means that your comments are unfounded, you have yet to post a defense for my previous post.

*edited*
just found out from the gif file i have included is from this pdf file, http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodt...OM-0108-28/$FILE/JOM-0108-28F.pdf?OpenElement

the raw materials include glass, plastic, fabric as well as steel and aluminum. so the cost of steel and aluminum in car manufacturing has dropped lower than i expected. the pdf also shows the effect of better economis of scale, where more production lower the cost of fabricating the parts.

 

[kyheng]

The gif format like that, how to ensure people to beleive, for a proper chart, the time and source should put in, or atleast the chart should put prepare by: XXX. That's why I said before, everybody also can make this type of chart. And the pdf file that you provide the most important part you never show, page 2. I don't think that 'economies of scale' can apply much on cars, as raw material prices all comes up and for a certain car, certain of amount of material must be used. So certain cost still incured. Maybe the material can get at cheaper price if bought in bulk, but will it cheaper than 5 years ago? Since you said companies detail will be secret, how true will they reveal on what material they are using now? Begining of last year, the iron/steel price is highest because of Beijing's demand very high until every iron on street also will be missing.

 

[omnikron]

The gif format like that, how to ensure people to beleive, for a proper chart, the time and source should put in, or atleast the chart should put prepare by: XXX. That's why I said before, everybody also can make this type of chart. And the pdf file that you provide the most important part you never show, page 2. I don't think that 'economies of scale' can apply much on cars, as raw material prices all comes up and for a certain car, certain of amount of material must be used. So certain cost still incured. Maybe the material can get at cheaper price if bought in bulk, but will it cheaper than 5 years ago? Since you said companies detail will be secret, how true will they reveal on what material they are using now? Begining of last year, the iron/steel price is highest because of Beijing's demand very high until every iron on street also will be missing.

that gif is from the journal writer. the journal has only 1 page because i would have to pay $15 for the complete journal.

i don't feel that i have to answer your challange since you have not answer my questions from my previous posts.

finally, people !!! he says that economies of scale doesn't apply much on cars, what say you !!!

 

[kyheng]

Which question? If not mistaken I have answer all your questions. What I mean on economies of scale doesn't apply much on cars is because a car still is a car, give you some example : a car cost is 4000 and they sell at 10000 and they make 6000 on it. A car dealer won't be selling 20 same cars in a same day. It will keep on the shop for few days or months. Unlike food stalls, the food they prepare, if they prepare 10kg with cost of 10 and sell at 100 for 10 hours then he will make 90 from it, and he can prepare 20kg with slightly longer time and sell it till finish also 10 hours then he will make 180. Then this is call economies of scale.

 

[omnikron]

http://www.metalprices.com/ ------> latest metal prices

steel prices at Nov 2003 -----> Jan 2004 (inc surcharge)
Hot Rolled Coil $280 -----> $450-$480
Cold Reduced Coil $360 -----> $530-$580
Hot dipped galvanized sheet $375 -----> $550-$600

Source : http://www.uksteel.org.uk/matsurv.pdf (page 5)

still the point is that material cost for a small part of the car's cost, futhermore, how much steel or aluminumis used is also unknown. but i DO know that at year 2001 (assumed) an Audi A8 cost $3100 to make and the cost is roughly 30%. Companies refuse to release their latest information to the public because the information may give their competitors some advantage. information about a car 5 years ago (assumed) is pretty reasonable unlees someone on the inside gave us a better idea.

before attacking my statements, please back your statements with facts first.

what about your arguement about :
Chain vs Belt driven engines ?
thicker metal equals to safer cars?
Mitsu Lancer is safer or as safe as altis/civic?

if you say that "With this type of unclear and misleading chart, anyone also can do." please let me see yours and how you would do it.

these questions.
Chain vs Belt driven engines ?
thicker metal equals to safer cars?
Mitsu Lancer is safer or as safe as altis/civic?

you do not understand economies of scale. u buy 1000 the cost is RM1000 each
but u buy 5000 cost may change to RM800 each. so on and so forth. do some reading on economies of scale first.

 

[Zeroed]

Which question? If not mistaken I have answer all your questions. What I mean on economies of scale doesn't apply much on cars is because a car still is a car, give you some example : a car cost is 4000 and they sell at 10000 and they make 6000 on it. A car dealer won't be selling 20 same cars in a same day. It will keep on the shop for few days or months. Unlike food stalls, the food they prepare, if they prepare 10kg with cost of 10 and sell at 100 for 10 hours then he will make 90 from it, and he can prepare 20kg with slightly longer time and sell it till finish also 10 hours then he will make 180. Then this is call economies of scale.

So car dealers are the ones manufacturing cars now?


Obviously you do not understand economies of scale from the production point of view. Economies of scale involves specialising in the manufacture of a product, becoming more efficient in it and producing in large quantities hence reducing initial and fixed costs.
Take this example: Creating a mould for a bumper costs about 3k. Take the material costs of the bumper as 300. Making a single bumper will cost you 3.3k then. Now with the same mould, making 100 bumpers will cost you only 30 for the mould per bumper. A hundred bumpers will hence cost only 330 each. Thats economies of scale, not how many plates of nasi lemak you can sell in a day. I hope thats clear enough for you?


Also, if you think that manufacturers sell cars by the tens, suggest you check how many cars Ford manufactures in a MINUTE, and how many of those are sold across the world. Of course, I do not have the patience of Omnikron so I'll leave it to you.

Cheers.

 

[kyheng]

So is that 3 questions. Now I get it, I think this I have mentioned very very early on this thread, only you never check properly. Is on page 3. As I said already again and again, what is the value to buy a 100k car which using thin metal? And another thing that I forget about it is, Mitsubishi also got its so-called safety body : RISE. But why they already have the RISE and still want to use heavy metal on the car body?
Maybe what I say on the economies of scale is wrong. As I said ealier, is an example only. But 1 thing that you 2 are wrong is economies of scale is applied to every business, not only on car business. Both of your example is more or less same with me, only I use food and you use car.

 

[omnikron]

"Even a good mechanic also will not say that this belt can last for 80k, they will even say the belt might snap at around 30k." http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=83522&page=3
is that your answer to my question 1? then why comment that chain driven engine dangerous la, if break have to overhaul la, belt just top overhaul la. if this is your answer, then it does not answer anything at all. is belt better or not? facts?

finally some good points brought up, the RISE design in mitsu's lancer. i won't comment on it since no safety test has been done to show how well it works, and whether it is as good as Toyota's GOA body.

this is a random search of RISE body design which i googled.

"The Insurance Institute of Highway Safety, a lobbying organization supported by the insurance industry, gave the Outlander its highest possible rating in its frontal crash-testing program, though it rated Poor in the side-impact category."
http://www.autosite.com/content/Res...h/Mitsubishi/Model_vch/Outlander/Year_si/2004


I never said that economies of scale works only in manufacturing, yes it works in every business. but your example does not show that increasing the number of output lowers the cost, only higher profit.

the fact that many companies are doing it now is maintain the current price and lower cost, equals to higher profit. achieving higher economies of scale lower the cost per car.

until now, you have yet to show proof that thicker metal panels result in safer cars. just in case u say that " i never said that thicker means better"

"A simple thing to consider, the harder metal used, it can make the impact time longer, thus our safety is more secure." - kyheng

that is what u said, proof?

 

[BlackSamurai]

1 more thing, we can make kancil metal knocking sound damn "solid" by installing soundproof plastic material.

 

[kyheng]

You get it wrong again, this is the second, you never read the first, please don't try to act clever if you cannot get what I mean.
So you want proof on heavy metal? Here is it, I have a friend that drives a old Volvo 240 I think, the square type. 1 day he is driving after work and he sleep inside the while driving with unknown speed, he only knew the last speed he remember was 80km/h. Then he hit a traffic light post with front have a concreate to protect it. The concreate is totally damaged and the traffic light post fell on top on his car. But he have no injury and the car only radiator damage with the front bonet and top dented abit. If using modern car and have this type of accident, what will happen to the car? Don't talk about driver inside first, the minimum damage is the radiator and engine will damage. So if you want to say that I telling lies, go ahead please and buy a Volvo 240 and test. This car only cost rm13000.

'you do not understand economies of scale. u buy 1000 the cost is RM1000 each
but u buy 5000 cost may change to RM800 each. so on and so forth. do some reading on economies of scale first.' Do I have to tell you word by word? If you can read your statement back again maybe you will know. My statement is, cost maybe still same, but time is saved on the preparation work. Time is also considered as cost in a business.

 

[kyheng]

1 more thing, we can make kancil metal knocking sound damn "solid" by installing soundproof plastic material.

Oh, yarlah, but now we are talking original cars that are not using soundproof material.

 

[Ingolstadt]

omnikron, zeroed, black samurai; haven't you guys realized? this guy's mentality is not on that level to continue with such discussions. There are obviously alot of stuffs that he doesn't understand, not only to say automobile industry, economies of scale or safety standards, no matter how hard you guys try, it won't work. He just wanna go on defend, defend and defend; if i'm debating with omnikron from the 1st post till now, i've already taken his address and went up straight to him and pour him a cup of tea with me on my knees, but this guy just ignore whatever he posted, even trying to drill a hole in doubting the gif format of the chart.... WTF? see the point? point is he's not a debater, hence forget debating him and all the trouble bringing up rocket science to a simple person like him. omnikron googled all over the net for facts and figures and this guy responds with a "friend of mine ... 80km/h last check ... light post ... destroyed concrete ... only radiator damage" ........ let him buy, let him die, these genes shouldn't be passed on.