Oh, Ah Heng, if you wanna win this debate, try this :" A tank uses damn thick metal, hence it is very safe." NO ONE WILL OPPOSE AND WE WILL ALL WORSHIP YOU.
Guarantee, touchwood.
**knock** **knock**
Guarantee, touchwood.
**knock** **knock**
1.6 cars, which is better?
- Thread starter kyheng
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"Economies of scale in production means that production at a larger scale (more output) can be achieved at a lower cost (i.e. with economies or savings)."
Source - http://internationalecon.com/v1.0/ch80/80c020.html
its a good read on economies of scale.
i think your version is known as higher productivity. more output per hour. economies of scale is produce more, cost becomes lower.
i'll explain my arguements again. thicker metal does not mean safer cars, as can be proven with numerous Japanese cars out there (i.e Toyota). you can build the car with 3" steel, but does it make a safer car for the occupants AND pedestrians, not quite. a car with lesser metal panels may score the same safety rating as a thicker panel car, but pedestrians are more likely to survive if a thinner panel car hit them. Simple enough?
you keep bringing in stories that your friend, or from the newspaper. i could always bring in a story on how a Toyota Altis or Honda Civic survived a horrific crash. Some of you may remember the news clip that a subaru was hit from the back by a truck and the Subaru was sandwiched between 2 big trailers, the driver survived without a scratch. So, does it prove that the Subaru Impreza is safer than the Volvo 240? No.
the best way to tell that a car is safe is that it is done scientifically, like the Euro Ncap test. same condition, controlled environment, educated professionals.
again, you have avoided my questions.
1) is belt more superior to chain driven engines, if yes? how? proof?
2) is Lancer safer than the Altis or Civic because it has thicker metal panels? proof?
3) does thicker panels make a safer car than thinner panel cars? proof?
Ingolstadt, i don't agree with him, but that does not give me the right to belittle him. hope i didn't offend you. As a fellow car enthosiast, i feel that i can do my small part in educating another fellow car driver such as kyheng, and hopefully people in the ZTH forum.
*edited*
my post is considered mild already. i posted some really silly shiat 4 to 5 year ago in autoworld forum and i was flamed like hell, until must hide in hole. and i wasn't even arguing about P1 nor P2.
Source - http://internationalecon.com/v1.0/ch80/80c020.html
its a good read on economies of scale.
i think your version is known as higher productivity. more output per hour. economies of scale is produce more, cost becomes lower.
i'll explain my arguements again. thicker metal does not mean safer cars, as can be proven with numerous Japanese cars out there (i.e Toyota). you can build the car with 3" steel, but does it make a safer car for the occupants AND pedestrians, not quite. a car with lesser metal panels may score the same safety rating as a thicker panel car, but pedestrians are more likely to survive if a thinner panel car hit them. Simple enough?
you keep bringing in stories that your friend, or from the newspaper. i could always bring in a story on how a Toyota Altis or Honda Civic survived a horrific crash. Some of you may remember the news clip that a subaru was hit from the back by a truck and the Subaru was sandwiched between 2 big trailers, the driver survived without a scratch. So, does it prove that the Subaru Impreza is safer than the Volvo 240? No.
the best way to tell that a car is safe is that it is done scientifically, like the Euro Ncap test. same condition, controlled environment, educated professionals.
again, you have avoided my questions.
1) is belt more superior to chain driven engines, if yes? how? proof?
2) is Lancer safer than the Altis or Civic because it has thicker metal panels? proof?
3) does thicker panels make a safer car than thinner panel cars? proof?
Ingolstadt, i don't agree with him, but that does not give me the right to belittle him. hope i didn't offend you. As a fellow car enthosiast, i feel that i can do my small part in educating another fellow car driver such as kyheng, and hopefully people in the ZTH forum.
*edited*
my post is considered mild already. i posted some really silly shiat 4 to 5 year ago in autoworld forum and i was flamed like hell, until must hide in hole. and i wasn't even arguing about P1 nor P2.
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Yes, cheers to all of you guys (including kyheng).
Speaking of Autoworld... its full of guys that have it in their heads that their opinion is always right. Someone once argued with me that the noise you hear from an F1 car has got nothing to do with the exhaust pointing upwards into the air right after the manifold without silencers, oh no. The exhaust is pretty much silent, the noise comes from the engine alone. And people supported him and flamed me because he was a regular in the forums. I left after that, having observed many similar cases.
Speaking of Autoworld... its full of guys that have it in their heads that their opinion is always right. Someone once argued with me that the noise you hear from an F1 car has got nothing to do with the exhaust pointing upwards into the air right after the manifold without silencers, oh no. The exhaust is pretty much silent, the noise comes from the engine alone. And people supported him and flamed me because he was a regular in the forums. I left after that, having observed many similar cases.
An idiot speaks out of his mind without thinking, organize a TT to discuss about this weyh, Im gonna snuck in and listen to what u guys debating hehe.
You have a very good approach, and patience. I couldn't be bothered, but i normally do give in effort in sharing with other forummers, i'm not stingy to share, as with my previous posts, but i'm not a politic speaker, i wouldn't care much bout glorifying the words i choose, there are times where we should be patient and there are times we don't. My limit is lower, in short. :) I appreciate forummers like you, much like yodas who never get pissed just about everything, maybe i'm the young luke skywalker..... ok ok maybe i'm chewbaka.
**My turbo kicks in at lower revs than yours !! hehe!
**But heats earlier........ intercooler anyone? i need!
**My turbo kicks in at lower revs than yours !! hehe!
**But heats earlier........ intercooler anyone? i need!
See? Sure got a people will say so, that's why I said before, buy 1 and try it, this is a real thing that happen. And to Ingo, if you are not happy, then don't put anything over here. But don't know why you still want to put? Want to show how good is you? Or wnat to show how you want to use word WTF? Don't you feel that your stupid statemnets sometimes have no points? As said very early already, your statement always change on other threads. I know you like to belittle people over here, when they against you.
Every thing does has a pro and cons:
1. For the belt and chain : the belt can last long, but what if it snapped half way and hit the moving part in the engine? Metal with metal. This I have siad early already, only you still try to avoid it to read it , omni. The belt also will snapped, but it will only be rubber hitting metal, this is the point I want to stress.
2. I never said that Lancer is saver than ALtis or Civic nor Civic and Altis saver than Lancer, but is because the amount money of we paid for, is it worth it? Don't know when I have mentioned this, again is you ignore my point from start.
3. This I have give an example, if you don't want to believe it, then don't believe it, just don't say that I never give any proof.
You use the word may, then it is not something not proven, then you cannot say my certain word is wrong.
Lastly, Termiziyeoh, if I'm an idiot, than what are you, you are only another idiot know less and try to show like clever by supporting someone else over here.
Every thing does has a pro and cons:
1. For the belt and chain : the belt can last long, but what if it snapped half way and hit the moving part in the engine? Metal with metal. This I have siad early already, only you still try to avoid it to read it , omni. The belt also will snapped, but it will only be rubber hitting metal, this is the point I want to stress.
2. I never said that Lancer is saver than ALtis or Civic nor Civic and Altis saver than Lancer, but is because the amount money of we paid for, is it worth it? Don't know when I have mentioned this, again is you ignore my point from start.
3. This I have give an example, if you don't want to believe it, then don't believe it, just don't say that I never give any proof.
You use the word may, then it is not something not proven, then you cannot say my certain word is wrong.
Lastly, Termiziyeoh, if I'm an idiot, than what are you, you are only another idiot know less and try to show like clever by supporting someone else over here.
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eh i always thought timing belt and/or timing chain is on the outside of the engine,not?
some info from www.cartalk.com
"that timing chains generally do outlast timing belts. And some manufacturers still use them. Nissan, Saturn, Ford and others still use timing chains on some of their cars. But timing chains don't always outlast cars"
"Belts do have their advantages. They're cheaper, quieter, lighter and easier to replace. They're also better able to handle the longer run necessary for overhead- cam engines. In the old days, a timing chain only had to be a foot long. Now, with overhead-cam engines, it has to be 3 or 4 feet long, and for that kind of length, a belt is not only a lot quieter, but more reliable, too. When you use a chain for that kind of length, it's more likely to loosen up, slap around and eventually break"
"it's a trade-off, Charles. Timing chains do last longer, but not necessarily the life of the car. And when they do break, it's a big job and a lot of money to replace them"
some info from www.cartalk.com
"that timing chains generally do outlast timing belts. And some manufacturers still use them. Nissan, Saturn, Ford and others still use timing chains on some of their cars. But timing chains don't always outlast cars"
"Belts do have their advantages. They're cheaper, quieter, lighter and easier to replace. They're also better able to handle the longer run necessary for overhead- cam engines. In the old days, a timing chain only had to be a foot long. Now, with overhead-cam engines, it has to be 3 or 4 feet long, and for that kind of length, a belt is not only a lot quieter, but more reliable, too. When you use a chain for that kind of length, it's more likely to loosen up, slap around and eventually break"
"it's a trade-off, Charles. Timing chains do last longer, but not necessarily the life of the car. And when they do break, it's a big job and a lot of money to replace them"
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So my friend Omni and others, 1 of the good explanation on the timing belt and timing chain by tkkhoo. Take note on his last statement, this I has been say it again and again.
Yes, timing belt is outside the engine, that's why when they snapped or break they will hit engine part near to it.
Another thing to be think of from his statements(if true) is, the timing chain is connect to other rotating parts also, so if it break it will cause more damage to the engine. I don't know how much is a Toyota or Honda engine cost in half cut shop, but for Mitsubishi engine, the price range is from rm1500(1.5cc) to 6000(1.6 MIVEC)
Have read the link our friend gave, seems like in US there is no Altis, City or Vios, don't know why.
Yes, timing belt is outside the engine, that's why when they snapped or break they will hit engine part near to it.
Another thing to be think of from his statements(if true) is, the timing chain is connect to other rotating parts also, so if it break it will cause more damage to the engine. I don't know how much is a Toyota or Honda engine cost in half cut shop, but for Mitsubishi engine, the price range is from rm1500(1.5cc) to 6000(1.6 MIVEC)
Have read the link our friend gave, seems like in US there is no Altis, City or Vios, don't know why.
Yeah, now I remember, people in US is bigger size compare to us. Actually Jason, timing belt or timing chain, both got their life span, but the belt can see for cracks towards the end life span but chain cannot see any crack. So the best is to do preventive maintainance regulary.
vios only available for Asia market.tkkhoo said:
At long last, a proper reply from kyheng.
as stated above by tkkhoo in this page http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1999/April/01.html , Timing belts last longer than timing belts. but belts cheaper, quieter.
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1344077
your theory that it will break and hit parts inside the engine bay is again unmentioned in the site. which bring me back to my older points, you cannot buy a car based on it being chain or belt driven simply because it will hit other parts that "IF" the chain were to break. The car's and part warranty is supposed to cover such instances. Both pages does not mention your risk that a broken chain will hit other parts of the car. however, a broken chain's effect is the same as a broken belts. a ruined engine.
I'll accept point 2 i guess, unless i find something else.
finally we come back to point 3. your" proof" given is only a story. it is not proven. modern safety standard ensure that in the event of an accident, the occupants and pedestrians have higher chances of survival. you can build a car till tank standards, but does that make a safe car?
"If the metal used is same as proton, what for we have to pay almost 100k for a local assamble car that using cheap metal? " - kyheng
How does "local cheap metal " affect a car's safety? just because local cars are poorly designed means that local metal are inferior to imported one? but from what i understand, Altis is brought in from Thailand (Asean car), while Civic is Assembled in Malaysia. both cases, the cars are not using your so called " local metal".
if local metal is inferior, proof?
this is a forum, where people often argue, but with objectivity. your arguement consist of non-backup facts and stories from who-knows-where. By saying "This I have give an example, if you don't want to believe it, then don't believe it, just don't say that I never give any proof." is imature, and a story cannot be taken as proof, try publishing a paper with that story, and i will assure you it will be ridiculed by the professionals.
as stated above by tkkhoo in this page http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1999/April/01.html , Timing belts last longer than timing belts. but belts cheaper, quieter.
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1344077
your theory that it will break and hit parts inside the engine bay is again unmentioned in the site. which bring me back to my older points, you cannot buy a car based on it being chain or belt driven simply because it will hit other parts that "IF" the chain were to break. The car's and part warranty is supposed to cover such instances. Both pages does not mention your risk that a broken chain will hit other parts of the car. however, a broken chain's effect is the same as a broken belts. a ruined engine.
I'll accept point 2 i guess, unless i find something else.
finally we come back to point 3. your" proof" given is only a story. it is not proven. modern safety standard ensure that in the event of an accident, the occupants and pedestrians have higher chances of survival. you can build a car till tank standards, but does that make a safe car?
"If the metal used is same as proton, what for we have to pay almost 100k for a local assamble car that using cheap metal? " - kyheng
How does "local cheap metal " affect a car's safety? just because local cars are poorly designed means that local metal are inferior to imported one? but from what i understand, Altis is brought in from Thailand (Asean car), while Civic is Assembled in Malaysia. both cases, the cars are not using your so called " local metal".
if local metal is inferior, proof?
this is a forum, where people often argue, but with objectivity. your arguement consist of non-backup facts and stories from who-knows-where. By saying "This I have give an example, if you don't want to believe it, then don't believe it, just don't say that I never give any proof." is imature, and a story cannot be taken as proof, try publishing a paper with that story, and i will assure you it will be ridiculed by the professionals.
Well, as I'm an operator only, so we don't have much money to buy a 1++k Volvo to test it out. As I said it ealier is a real story that proven, if you don't want to accept it, then just forget about it, there's no need to keep on saying that I'm lying.
Let me ask you 1 most stupid question, where the timing belt and timing chain located at? Inside the engine or outside the engine? I don't know what car you are driving, but my car's timing belt is located on outside of the engine, where there are others rotating parts near to it. Maybe your car is a special car where the timing belt is secured inside a holder. And another thing, this is a common sense, do I have to state it out 1 by 1? Then that's mean actually you cannot think a thing in a more easy and simple way, want to think all the things in a complicated way.
"it's a trade-off, Charles. Timing chains do last longer, but not necessarily the life of the car. And when they do break, it's a big job and a lot of money to replace them"
Do you know what is this statement mean? I hope I don't know, so need your complicated brain to make it more complicate for other people to understand it.
Maybe the last words that you quated me is imature. But don't tell me that you never heard from your friends or relatives about this type of stories? Sometimes car accidents that published in the newspaper also got mentioned. If not you can Yahoo or Google around and check for it since you like to find some facts to shoot me, why not use some of time and see for yourself. From here you can tell me that you like to find bones on words.
Did I said that cheap metal not safe? Where? Can show me? Again you ignored some of my statements. Now I tell you again : I never said that Lancer is saver than ALtis or Civic nor Civic and Altis saver than Lancer, but is because the amount money of we paid for, is it worth it? If you still want to ignore it again, don't ask me for it. Open your mind abit, don't judge a man is bad because he challanged you.
http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/accident_story/11-11-04.html
This is another fairytale story that I going to show you on the old Volvo with speed of 80mph
http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/accident_story/4-16-03.html
Another fairytale story on year 2001 model with speed of 60mph. If you still want to ignore it and say I'm lying, I got nothing to say anymore, but don't say I never provide you proofs, after all just fairy tales from US, not actual facts that comes from Insurance Institute of Highway Safety or other Euro crash test companies's standard. In actual, some people like me will believe in all these fairytales, but not you. You will only believe in something that comes out from big componies with all the fancy tests and statements.
Let me ask you 1 most stupid question, where the timing belt and timing chain located at? Inside the engine or outside the engine? I don't know what car you are driving, but my car's timing belt is located on outside of the engine, where there are others rotating parts near to it. Maybe your car is a special car where the timing belt is secured inside a holder. And another thing, this is a common sense, do I have to state it out 1 by 1? Then that's mean actually you cannot think a thing in a more easy and simple way, want to think all the things in a complicated way.
"it's a trade-off, Charles. Timing chains do last longer, but not necessarily the life of the car. And when they do break, it's a big job and a lot of money to replace them"
Do you know what is this statement mean? I hope I don't know, so need your complicated brain to make it more complicate for other people to understand it.
Maybe the last words that you quated me is imature. But don't tell me that you never heard from your friends or relatives about this type of stories? Sometimes car accidents that published in the newspaper also got mentioned. If not you can Yahoo or Google around and check for it since you like to find some facts to shoot me, why not use some of time and see for yourself. From here you can tell me that you like to find bones on words.
Did I said that cheap metal not safe? Where? Can show me? Again you ignored some of my statements. Now I tell you again : I never said that Lancer is saver than ALtis or Civic nor Civic and Altis saver than Lancer, but is because the amount money of we paid for, is it worth it? If you still want to ignore it again, don't ask me for it. Open your mind abit, don't judge a man is bad because he challanged you.
http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/accident_story/11-11-04.html
This is another fairytale story that I going to show you on the old Volvo with speed of 80mph
http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/accident_story/4-16-03.html
Another fairytale story on year 2001 model with speed of 60mph. If you still want to ignore it and say I'm lying, I got nothing to say anymore, but don't say I never provide you proofs, after all just fairy tales from US, not actual facts that comes from Insurance Institute of Highway Safety or other Euro crash test companies's standard. In actual, some people like me will believe in all these fairytales, but not you. You will only believe in something that comes out from big componies with all the fancy tests and statements.
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Hey, my father is a timber grader, and i respect you for what you do, so don't bring in the topic of i'm richer than you, that kind of arguement is irrelevant.
and my previous post said that i accept your point regarding my question 2, no arguements.
"If the metal used is same as proton, what for we have to pay almost 100k for a local assamble car that using cheap metal?" -quote kyheng
that is the line you said that local metal is inferior to improted metal.
Hearing stories from friends and posting it in a forum is a different matter. while talking to family or friends, he does not have to be accountable for what he says. on the other hand, a forum is a place where people argue objectively, and be accountable for what they say. which is why showing proof which can withstand scrutiny is so important. or else we would be no different than the MPs in our parliment shouting "bodoh" and calling people "expired medicine".
the website shows many cars which have survived car accidents, but hey, look a toyota http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/2005-accident_story/2-2-05.html
does my site say that toyota is safer than the volvo 240? no, its just a story.
i would like to apoligize for not clearing this earlier, a safe car by modern standards is to ensure the maximum survivability for bothe occupants and pedestrians.
and my previous post said that i accept your point regarding my question 2, no arguements.
"If the metal used is same as proton, what for we have to pay almost 100k for a local assamble car that using cheap metal?" -quote kyheng
that is the line you said that local metal is inferior to improted metal.
Hearing stories from friends and posting it in a forum is a different matter. while talking to family or friends, he does not have to be accountable for what he says. on the other hand, a forum is a place where people argue objectively, and be accountable for what they say. which is why showing proof which can withstand scrutiny is so important. or else we would be no different than the MPs in our parliment shouting "bodoh" and calling people "expired medicine".
the website shows many cars which have survived car accidents, but hey, look a toyota http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/2005-accident_story/2-2-05.html
does my site say that toyota is safer than the volvo 240? no, its just a story.
i would like to apoligize for not clearing this earlier, a safe car by modern standards is to ensure the maximum survivability for bothe occupants and pedestrians.
Aik, did I said that you are rich? I only said that me and my friend that owned the Volvo is not rich so he only afford to buy an old Volvo. Again, if you are in angry mood, don't try to read the post I put, as you will misunderstand something. The website I send to you is people's real stories on car accidents. Dosen't matter is accountable or not, talking from mouth to mouth, put on the website or forum, a story is still a story. Only depend on we how to see it. I only put the 2 Volvos(1 new and 1 old) is because you keep on saying that I telling lies or some fairy tales and at the same time to compare what is the diff between old(heavy metal) and new(lighter metal) car. Both survived from the accident, with the old one damage is less and the new one damage is greater. Maybe is because the way the accident is not the same. But if the new one also travel in speed of 80mph, is it the damage still be the same? Don't quate me on this as it never happen, you just think of it and keep it yourself. Don't flame me on this.
How can you assure that imported metal is better than local? What local companies will do does not mean other country's will not do, who will know, as this is companies secret. maybe I have to say sorry if this statement is wrong.
Lastly on your statement : "a safe car by modern standards is to ensure the maximum survivability for bothe occupants and pedestrians." I cannot find a way to agree this statement when using common sense. Just an example : if the car speed is 60km/h and hit a pedestrians direct, what will be happen to the pedestrians? Is the car will slowdown or will change car's steering when see someone? Will he survive from the hit? As I only think it on the most simple way and get the conclusion like this, hope you can define more on this, thanks in advance.
How can you assure that imported metal is better than local? What local companies will do does not mean other country's will not do, who will know, as this is companies secret. maybe I have to say sorry if this statement is wrong.
Lastly on your statement : "a safe car by modern standards is to ensure the maximum survivability for bothe occupants and pedestrians." I cannot find a way to agree this statement when using common sense. Just an example : if the car speed is 60km/h and hit a pedestrians direct, what will be happen to the pedestrians? Is the car will slowdown or will change car's steering when see someone? Will he survive from the hit? As I only think it on the most simple way and get the conclusion like this, hope you can define more on this, thanks in advance.
i won't even point out the contradictions in your statement anymore.
Sorry guys. i give up. i would have pushed on, but there is no more purpose of me posting anymore in this thread.
kyheng 1 - omnikron 0
*Edited for typo.
Sorry guys. i give up. i would have pushed on, but there is no more purpose of me posting anymore in this thread.
kyheng 1 - omnikron 0
*Edited for typo.
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