My 2L B-Series N/A Project

[shiroitenshi]

I actually did find a different setup which uses the B18C 87.2mm stroke with custom longer rods using custom raised 19mm wristpin instead of stock 21mm and a single piston ring for ultimate low drag and high power with a rod stroke ratio closer to the B16B!! The most ideal setup but cost MEGA dollar and don't know how many mileage before need to strip to change rings. hehe.. Also those single ring piston dome are scary.. :shcokedcamo: wrong tune and say bye bye to the bottom end

Hmm.. I've never seen a single ring setup before, I'm not sure if it's even possible, as the second ring is necessary for the compression seal, from what I know.. a single ring just can't seal properly. Still, I've always wondered if it were possible. Everyone says it's just not possible, due to the fact that the second ring also keeps the piston skirts from kissing the liners, apart from cylinder sealing.

However, I've seen a forged pistons with nearly the same specs you mentioned, but with dual rings, and the second ring actually sits on the wrist pin hole, due to the higher wrist pin location.. My friend says it's not a very streetable setup, since it's probably going to consume engine oil.

Anyway about those tri-y headers you mentioned.. I remembered I told you about it over a mail or something.. forgot already... but these are the pics.. I stored them in the phone for quite a while already...

These are about 3mm-4mm bigger than the B18C Mugen headers.
Time will tell how much power the B20B (still currently building) when it's finished. I anticipate 290hp+ on engine, could be more depending on intake and TB choices. You might have seen them somewhere, but don't publicize okay?
Owner's keeping his build secret.. for now... esp. from his other friend who already finished his.. :P

Chris, mind pmming me the quotes for a J's racing TB? somewhere from 64mm and up.

Eh, you forgot to mention the intake manifold you're using.. the stock ITR manifold? or ???

I think the stock ones start to be a bottleneck once you hit 250whp, but seems like one guy here already passed that mark with the stock manifold.. (O_o)

I will be using the B18C 3 CAP type block brace with the ARP Main studs. Should be safe to 9k + rev if wanted too. Hopefully :angel_smile:

I'll be waiting for your results.. the spoon/ssworks block brace price is a bit hard to swallow for me as well. Endyn's a bit reasonable, but it's doesn't differ much from the stock R design.

 

[chris2000]

Hmm.. I've never seen a single ring setup before, I'm not sure if it's even possible, as the second ring is necessary for the compression seal, from what I know.. a single ring just can't seal properly. Still, I've always wondered if it were possible. Everyone says it's just not possible, due to the fact that the second ring also keeps the piston skirts from kissing the liners, apart from cylinder sealing.

However, I've seen a forged pistons with nearly the same specs you mentioned, but with dual rings, and the second ring actually sits on the wrist pin hole, due to the higher wrist pin location.. My friend says it's not a very streetable setup, since it's probably going to consume engine oil.

Anyway about those tri-y headers you mentioned.. I remembered I told you about it over a mail or something.. forgot already... but these are the pics.. I stored them in the phone for quite a while already...

These are about 3mm-4mm bigger than the B18C Mugen headers.
Time will tell how much power the B20B (still currently building) when it's finished. I anticipate 290hp+ on engine, could be more depending on intake and TB choices. You might have seen them somewhere, but don't publicize okay?
Owner's keeping his build secret.. for now... esp. from his other friend who already finished his.. :P

Chris, mind pmming me the quotes for a J's racing TB? somewhere from 64mm and up.

Eh, you forgot to mention the intake manifold you're using.. the stock ITR manifold? or ???

I think the stock ones start to be a bottleneck once you hit 250whp, but seems like one guy here already passed that mark with the stock manifold.. (O_o)

I'll be waiting for your results.. the spoon/ssworks block brace price is a bit hard to swallow for me as well. Endyn's a bit reasonable, but it's doesn't differ much from the stock R design.

Thats why i also don't know the reliability thats why don't want to try the single or two ring type. For your info, i also have seen a set of Mugen N1 race pistons which happen to be also single ring and damn light!

I'm looking at a slightly different tri-y. See the below:-

Big Tube Tri-y
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/thtan777/B-TriY.jpg

Custom for B20 race engine
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/thtan777/b20stainless.jpg

Custom for B18 race engine
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/thtan777/b18_1piece.jpg

290 engine hp = about 232whp if 20% trans loss and 246whp if 15% loss!! Pretty high but will target for it. haha... :regular_smile:

Intake manifold i have ITR P73 ones now but most likely will be using the Blox or Skunk2 intake.

J's Throttle is 70mm taper to 64mm butterfly like Spoon or Toda. Price will check tomorrow and PM u.

 

[shiroitenshi]

Thats why i also don't know the reliability thats why don't want to try the single or two ring type. For your info, i also have seen a set of Mugen N1 race pistons which happen to be also single ring and damn light!

I'm looking at a slightly different tri-y. See the below:-

Big Tube Tri-y
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/thtan777/B-TriY.jpg

Custom for B20 race engine
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/thtan777/b20stainless.jpg

Custom for B18 race engine
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/thtan777/b18_1piece.jpg

Hmm, interesting info on that single ring pistons.. I'll check it out.

Ah.. those pictures you posted are the two piece versions... looks like it's made for better ground clearance. I don't think I want to hear the price tag on those.. I can pretty much imagine it already.. haha..

Still, those headers in my pic are huge.. I think much larger than some of the more common ones. ground clearance is on par with a mugen B18C header, so it says a lot about the size of it.. :P

Still, I'm waiting to see how much you can eke out of a 1.9xx litre setup. I'm guessing around 230 or lower, but at most won't exceed 240whp? kinda depends how much you can get out of the higher rpm ranges post 9K+. Thing is, some of the B20B I've seen have so much low end torque, but it doesn't have that drastic torque climb after vtec like the normal R engines. I'm curious what parts you will choose to achieve that effect for high rpm power, esp your exhaust systems, which seems to be pretty much a bottleneck for bigger capacity, high rpm B-series (at least it seems to me)

Still, there's a lot of variables left to consider.. so consider mine a wild guess at the moment..

FYI, as for drivetrain losses.. 290hp=234/246whp? That seems like quite a lot of loss? I don't think if you use lightened drivetrain you will see those kinds of losses. Stock one maybelah.. :P

Looking forward to your quote..

 

[J101]

thats wat i thought actually when u got the hondata by using the tps maps u could fully utilise the quad throttles at all power range. i have seen some "spy" pix on the omni quads and they are fairly large at the moment no joke. maybe they'll come up with a street version and cheaper than twms soon.

speaking of the headers, at this side of the world, toda 4-2-1s are the goodies to get. since availability is an issue then thats about it if you start to think more.
btw, my own brother has a brand new 5-zigen 4-2-1 for EK9 with 2.5 collector bought brand new. i did a physical size comparison. its the same size as the JDM ITR 96 but weighs 5.5kg :) i'll update u personally on the result once we fix it.

godspeed

haha... Wish i could afford them and try to mess around with the tuning via TPS sensor then the conventional MAP sensor! Apparantly there a no full bolt on type for the B-Series. TWM still need some mod to fit and tuning them was a Bi**h! TODA got to use toyota sensors so will definetely need some wiring and re-calibration setup. I have seen people who can tune them but normally all at WOT only Can't do a perfect tune on idle, part throttle, gradually throttle. All got power only at WOT and no transient power.

Omni Power USA did say that they want to come out with the 4-Throtle specifically for B-Head and guarantee to use stock OEM HONDA sensors to be a complete bolt-on and with adjustable velocity stack.. But heard price will be more than RM10k!!!

 

[chris2000]

Hmm, interesting info on that single ring pistons.. I'll check it out.

Ah.. those pictures you posted are the two piece versions... looks like it's made for better ground clearance. I don't think I want to hear the price tag on those.. I can pretty much imagine it already.. haha..

Still, those headers in my pic are huge.. I think much larger than some of the more common ones. ground clearance is on par with a mugen B18C header, so it says a lot about the size of it.. :P

Still, I'm waiting to see how much you can eke out of a 1.9xx litre setup. I'm guessing around 230 or lower, but at most won't exceed 240whp? kinda depends how much you can get out of the higher rpm ranges post 9K+. Thing is, some of the B20B I've seen have so much low end torque, but it doesn't have that drastic torque climb after vtec like the normal R engines. I'm curious what parts you will choose to achieve that effect for high rpm power, esp your exhaust systems, which seems to be pretty much a bottleneck for bigger capacity, high rpm B-series (at least it seems to me)

Still, there's a lot of variables left to consider.. so consider mine a wild guess at the moment..

FYI, as for drivetrain losses.. 290hp=234/246whp? That seems like quite a lot of loss? I don't think if you use lightened drivetrain you will see those kinds of losses. Stock one maybelah.. :P

Looking forward to your quote..

Yup, your pictures of 4-2-1 are huge. Was just trying to show you, i want to get something longer tube as well for broader torque :)

My current (don't know it will end up in later stage) plan and target is to get around 215-225whp but will try to break the 230whp mark :Not_Impressed: And to keep it with some reliability, I don't think i will be revving past 9krpm. But and unless if the setup does make power pass 9krpm on the dyno, i will tune it till power drop. But i will only taking it pass 9krpm on dyno and not on the street. But i really doubt it will make power pass 9krpm due to the current limitation of the extractor, exhaust and intake restriction i have now and it depends what cams and compression i finally settle down with.

Check your pm soon for quote on the J's Racing throttle.

 

[chris2000]

thats wat i thought actually when u got the hondata by using the tps maps u could fully utilise the quad throttles at all power range. i have seen some "spy" pix on the omni quads and they are fairly large at the moment no joke. maybe they'll come up with a street version and cheaper than twms soon.

speaking of the headers, at this side of the world, toda 4-2-1s are the goodies to get. since availability is an issue then thats about it if you start to think more.
btw, my own brother has a brand new 5-zigen 4-2-1 for EK9 with 2.5 collector bought brand new. i did a physical size comparison. its the same size as the JDM ITR 96 but weighs 5.5kg :) i'll update u personally on the result once we fix it.

godspeed

Ya, Hondata does make tuning ITB alot easier due to the option available to tune via TPS voltage! But still not as simple. Brands like TWM or even TODA uses non-stock honda sensors, so need to do some rewiring then re-calibrate them to Hondata ecu. And all this not many tuners are competent or proven satisfactory to what is want. Idle setting via TPS was told by the matsalleh also very tough. hehe.. But if you got plan to go above NA 300whp on the B-Series, then ITB is really the only way to go.

But on the Omni ITB, i heard there is still some minor issue to make it, fully bolt on and prices they are still trying to make it cheaper than TWM.

ya, 5-zigen i did measure long time ago that it is similar to ITR thats why i went DC 4-1 which about the same size as Mugen 4-1 but cheaper than Mugen. hehe.. Look forward to your results in the 5zigen

 

[hattech-v]

which one is better? 4-2-1 toda or 4-1 mugen b18c?

 

[chris2000]

which one is better? 4-2-1 toda or 4-1 mugen b18c?

I also want to know with concrete proof. hehe.. I only hear and say (no proof) that the TODA actually does give better useable power throughout the rev and will flow very good up to 1900cc with decent compression. If compression goes above 12.5:1 or 2L cc then it will start to choke. Mugen 4-1, i heard produce just slight more peak power but less on the lower rev.

Maybe go ask Jacky @ JC Asia, cause he carry both the brand there and have a dyno so he might know better between this two brand. Then let me know also k. :)

I wonder how the J's Racing will compare with the TODA cause both are very similar design and size, but J's Racing being RM1200 cheaper than TODA or Mugen.

 

[chris2000]

tomorrow i come and get the black stuff....cheap cheap okie!!!!! ikik ikikkk kik kikkk

Thanks bro for dropping by this morning.. :regular_smile:

 

[xxxx]

These are about 3mm-4mm bigger than the B18C Mugen headers.
Time will tell how much power the B20B (still currently building) when it's finished. I anticipate 290hp+ on engine, could be more depending on intake and TB choices. You might have seen them somewhere, but don't publicize okay?
Owner's keeping his build secret.. for now... esp. from his other friend who already finished his.. :P

I think the stock ones start to be a bottleneck once you hit 250whp, but seems like one guy here already passed that mark with the stock manifold.. (O_o)

yup, there's alrdy ppl who made tat kind of whp with stock type R manifold.

 

[V8_nutter]

Chris which cam you plan to play ?

 

[V8_nutter]

Ya, Hondata does make tuning ITB alot easier due to the option available to tune via TPS voltage! But still not as simple. Brands like TWM or even TODA uses non-stock honda sensors, so need to do some rewiring then re-calibrate them to Hondata ecu. And all this not many tuners are competent or proven satisfactory to what is want. Idle setting via TPS was told by the matsalleh also very tough. hehe.. But if you got plan to go above NA 300whp on the B-Series, then ITB is really the only way to go.

But on the Omni ITB, i heard there is still some minor issue to make it, fully bolt on and prices they are still trying to make it cheaper than TWM.

ya, 5-zigen i did measure long time ago that it is similar to ITR thats why i went DC 4-1 which about the same size as Mugen 4-1 but cheaper than Mugen. hehe.. Look forward to your results in the 5zigen

It's better to leave the TPS within std marking,,,i didnt see any significant improvement when meddling with it. Or perhaps anyone can highlight the benefit here ?:regular_smile:

 

[chris2000]

Chris which cam you plan to play ?

Seriously bro, i don't know yet. With my current CP piston i have, my compression will be around 11.5:1 depending what gasket or how much i mill my head. If assuming with these piston, i can't go too high with cams so i might be using the TOda C that my mech has now and that he let me use foc. But with these cams on 2L, i've seen many setup where power only peak at about 7600rpm to 7900rpm on ITR intake and Mugen 4-1 extractor.

If i need more power up the rev, i really got to get more things done like better intake and big tube extractor as well as a must in bump up of compression to minimum of 12.5:1 to run big big lift cams thats comes with high overlap that will reduce my dynamic compression.

So, if and only if i finally decide with a different and higher comp piston, then i might try something like Toda D, Buddy Club 4 or 5 or Skunk2 Pro Series. Depends what i can get hold off at good price. If no budget, then may just go back to Toda C.

 

[V8_nutter]

I never do circuit racing,,,its a matter of preferences. But what i heard ppl look for a cam that give them good midrange just to shoot out of the corner/turn quickly and for the topend,,,,so so is consider ok. It more depends on your driving style,,,if you like holding gear longer at the corner, perhaps top end cam will suits you.

Cp with approx 11.5 compression is good with high cam providing you can dial in ignition closed to maximum, with this setup you will get back the low to mid power. If your head is very good at knocking tolerence,,,low compression + high ignition wont make it knock (must gosok the head a bit) and it wont stall too.

No need to worry with big cams + low comp engine. Do the setup right, dial in the cam right, gosok the head abit,,,you can get power down below with advancing the ignition.

Or if your head is ultra knock tolerence you can play high comp with high cams with high ignition without even knock,,,.

 

[chris2000]

It's better to leave the TPS within std marking,,,i didnt see any significant improvement when meddling with it. Or perhaps anyone can highlight the benefit here ?:regular_smile:

For stock throttle it is better to leave it at stock. If TPS been remove before from stock throttle or if remove to install to ITB, it is recommended to adjust the TPS sensor to the correct voltage/position so that the ecu know the exact location when throttle is WOT, idle, part, or how many percent open. When this is done normally the car idle better and easier to tune the car.

I don't think any improvement just moving around with it. Just to calibrate it only.