Headwork for the B16 head.

[TonyChopper]

TonyChopper,

Stroking is a good option, and I think is a cheaper option too.

K24? Major $$$$.. do you know how much a K-series ITB costs?

That's not including the EMS needed to control fuel injecton based on the TPS required for the ITB! (no plenum, so where's the manifold pressure? Ha Ha!)

Or performance camshafts, etc. etc.

I wonder how he fit the block in EK? I thought the block is very tall? Or did he mount it lower in the engine bay, until the sump is almost near the ground?

If use ITB and suddenly a lot of small sand particle enter the engine.. bye bye compression! I think that ITB option only suitable if you're a sponsored racerlah.

That's y this only applies "IF" u wanna build a "SICK" machine...
Haha.. He'se a track car... so he can modify it whichever way he likes.. Im not really sure cos I din check out his engine bay...

Anyway I think for u... best is to get Type R block la.. Type R parts are great and reliable.. and if u want to put out abit more power... get a pair of Hi-cams and tune them well.. not neccesarily have to go for big brands or big size.. My friend's dc2 b16 with a pair of TypeR cams is able to beat Vtecs with Skunk2, Toda cams.. and some turbo cars (He also smoked a Singapore Dc5r with ITB at P.G circuit b4 ^^).. of course that doesn't mean that these brands are no good la.. the matching and tuning is more important, and ur preference also la...
Just my 2 cents.. ciaoZ

 

[shiroitenshi]

All the amount of tuning also cannot help if there's too much difference in horsepower.. say.. A B20 with 260whp. :emoticon_U:

But even with a pair of cams.. I think he just got lucky to fight with those with poor launch techniques, or those people didn't get tuned properly.

Torque wise, B16A is just too pitiful compared to other honda short-strokers.

Which is why when considering my build, I'm straying away from any form of (drag-purpose mods)

 

[lilvee]

ace79,
EK needs the power steering subframe off the EG, if I'm not mistaken, based on an article I saw on K-series conversion on Honda-Tuning a while back.

Anyway.. I've got a new question.
Let's just say I obtained a oversized valve head.
Now, I'm planning to use B16B camshafts for their higher lift than B18C.

I'm thinking it'll either:
a) The valves will hit each other on overlap.
b) The B18C piston will hit the valve at TDC.

Do you think the above will happen?

I just got a call from my friend that asks me this same question... The first thought that came to mind was to check the clearance of the valves, but he doesn't have the required equipment.

Anyone tried this combo before?

To know whether your super high compression piston will hit the valve that being pushed by super high lift camshaft at TDC or not, didnt required a special equipment or tools. To check the clearence u only required a little knowledge and a piece of CLAY and goole it, how to clay.

To make our life easier and since the 2nd SDB this week end... here is a good link how to clay your engine.

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/claymotor/clay.php

The valve will never hit each other by using high comp piston and high lift cam, its just your after burn exzhaust gas will mess around with your compression mixture. this is not good .

 

[hattech-v]

good info...

 

[shiroitenshi]

To know whether your super high compression piston will hit the valve that being pushed by super high lift camshaft at TDC or not, didnt required a special equipment or tools. To check the clearence u only required a little knowledge and a piece of CLAY and goole it, how to clay.

To make our life easier and since the 2nd SDB this week end... here is a good link how to clay your engine.

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/claymotor/clay.php
​

The valve will never hit each other by using high comp piston and high lift cam, its just your after burn exzhaust gas will mess around with your compression mixture. this is not good .

You're quite right on that point, but the reason is that if we're running oversized valve sizes, there might not be enough clearance in between when both valves are at their max lift. which is why most manufacturer of cam specifically states that oversized valves should not be used with their high lift cams. I think only those specially manufactured heads have deeper valve seats to prevent this problem, though I'm not sure how much lift it allows, as I've never seen a dart-racing CNC'ed head with recessed valve seats in real life before.

I think both crower and toda have this same disclaimer in their manual/catalogue.

And I wouldn't say so about the valve will never hit high comp piston. At high revs, the rod actually stretches a bit and with a high lift cam, ker-thunk! Bye bye head.. (hence the required minimal clearance) It happened to one of the civic enthusiasts group I'm in (not an official group, just like minded people) when he bounced on a bump, misshifted, and the rev meter went well past the meter marks , over 10K i think, and thonk! 4 cylinder engine became 3, and somehow the engine died immediately. No broken rods, but damaged a B18C piston, broken valves, damaged head, B16B cam lobes got a piece chipped off (bye2 cam). Luckily he opted to tow the car immediately after that, or there would have been more damage as bits of vavles started traveling into the manifold and into the other combustion chambers.

Seems like (in my opinion, that is) we should have a safe zone clearance value depending on rod material, (and those aftermarket ones usually tend to be a lot more resistant to stretching,
Thanks for the claying info... sure is a creative way to test clearances.. Too bad it requires disassembling the head though. No biggie though. Thanks for the head's up.

I'll give it a shot. Thanks again.

 

[shiroitenshi]

A meeting between piston and valves.. not a pretty sight.

Bye bye B18C head.

 

[hattech-v]

wanna add some picture for bye bye head...

 

[V8_nutter]

*Shoots you with a Uzi*

Hehe.. kidding. I thank you for your opinion. I thought that this forum was only filled with cosmetic 'tuners' and not engine enthusiasts since I didn't get a response.

Of course, cams are proven items. But the enjoyment for modding for me is about playing with things that are untested, or things aren't normally done.

Currently, I just stepped up to the B16A, and still waiting for the car to come out of the workshop.

I'm having the option of stepping up to the B18C, or the B20 at the beginning of next year, once I receive money from current ongoing projects. But all things considered, where is the fun of doing things that everyone else does?

I'm thinking about resleeving the B16A, and stroking it to 2 litres, with a longer stroke for more RPM. I'm thinking of making an RPM monster, although it's common sense that for torque, lower rpms are desirable.

I'm thinking Endyn for porting work. It's going to be expensive, but I think things that are hard to get makes you appreciate it more.

Still, I'm wondering if anyone in Malaysia runs really high compression in the region of 12+:1 with oversized valves.

12+ compression is a norm for b20 combos, ive seen b20b running 14++ compression drag car with 27+ compression gauge (static).

 

[J101]

long time no see V8nutter, prepping for tomorrow?:regular_smile:

 

[V8_nutter]

Car sold alredy,,, no plan to play at the moment, maybe next round.

 

[V8_nutter]

Okay, admittedly being a newbie at ZTH Honda forum,
I'd like to know your experiences with headwork choices for the B16,B18 or the B20.

I've seen that most people go for higher lift cams with longer durations for more power, but I've never seen a Malaysian honda with oversized intake and exhaust valve ports on their 'head'. (not that head!)

I'm guessing that the oversized intake and exhaust valve ports allow you to run those super high compression pistons with more extreme concave surfaces without hitting the valves, but I've yet seen a car using those instead of high lift, long duration cams.

Have you guys seen one? I wonder if it's a better choice if going full NA, with no plans for turbo. I'm just wondering the rationale behind doing things that way. It doen't matter if it generates less power, I'm just trying the 'think different' philosophy by apple. :retarded:

Johor vtec using bigger valve what,,,,yeah big difference in power eventhough they use intake only. FYI bigger valve doesn't impact compression,,,,,piston, gasket & dome ditermine compression ratios. If you talking about progressive compression,,,then only valve size, cams and intake manifold play the parts.

If you using high compression pistons,,,what is your target ignition,,,what fuel you gonna use ?? If you running 12.4 compression with 12 ignition,,i would call that setup "pathethic". If you compensate 16 ignition with 12.5 and a 100 octane fuel is consider pathethic as well.

PPL using bigger valve is bcoz flow was the limit, what's the use of oversize valve with standard 2 angle seat ?? No point at all,,,better use std size valve with smoothen 3 or 4 angle seat.

 

[V8_nutter]

Hattech-v,

Actually crower makes strokers for B16A that ups the displacement to two litres (almost, more like 19XXcc)

I think they use pistons with the pin higher in the piston, intruding into the piston ring area. I think they also require reboring and resleeving, or else the block will be too weak to support 2L, but I'm not sure on this. I just looked through the 2006 catalogue, and it was on one of the pages with no mention of required sleeving or reboring (I borrowed it, so I can't browse through it now for the numbers). Anyway, at 9K (price varies depending on piston choice) thereabouts, it's a big entry fee, close to B20B already.. but the lack of piston sprayers on the B20 B really limits it's high rev capability, which sucks big time.. I wonder if anyone got around this problem already...?

Seeing Esprit's B20C (B20B, but named B20C by those Japanese ppl.) doing 9500rpm is mouthwatering, to say the least.

Anyway, I agree with you that someone should share their PnP experience, and horsepower gains from that. It would be interesting to see how well a PnP job (the ones done in Malaysia, that is) will offer in terms of horsepower gains.

HanafyEG,
K20 is an interesting preposition, but there's too much parts required, and futhermore, the wiring isn't exactly plug and play yet, even the ones made by hybrid-racing/hasport.

I guess I'll wait till the wiring is truly plug and play before jumping in. Currently, you still need to splice some wires to make the harness work (AFAIK, that is).

I don't think K24 will fit though, there's probably clearance issues since it's a tall block, even if we manage to fit the valve cover under the hood, the oil sump clearance is something to think about. Even the K20 has ground clearance issues for the sump on EGs.

Han Jackal,
Seems you're starting out to be interested in mechanical workings of that lump of steel under your hood. So I guess I'll give a quicky explanation.

Stroke = the distance the piston travels from the top of the cylinder to the bottom of the cyclinder. It offers extra displacement because the more distance it travels, the more air+fuel it can pull into the cylinder. Coupled with a bigger bore (piston diameter), it can increase displacement rather significantly.
The crankshaft is the item that affects the stroke, not the conrods. I mention this because I still remember when I first started learning about the engine, and thought that the stroke is affected by the conrod length, when in fact, it is not. What the conrod length affects is the average piston speed per stroke, which is another story entirely.

Oversized piston requires reboring (making the cylinder diameter bigger). There is a limit before you hit the water jacket (the cooling for your engine), or run the risk of having too thin a cylinder wall that it cracks easily.

One option that most people opting for a bigger bore is ductile iron sleeves, which are stronger, and hence can be made thinner without compromising the cyclinder wall strength. The entry fee for this is roughly 6K for GE sleeving work, last time I checked.

Shirotenshi,,,have you use stroker kit ?? have you ride one ? stroker is overrated, at least with b16/18 block. The power they produce is "tak cantik". I talk from experience since my guys did have a stroker set in b16 block. B20b stroker is whole different story.

I wont tell you what is the "disadvantage" of b16 stroker, but if you beleive that is a good combos and fast,,,try to use it and go race with b20 with simple setup (std cams, 85 pistons, below std b20, type r intake with type r xtractor),,,with aboved setup also stroker will eat dust.

 

[orc3368]

I wont tell you what is the "disadvantage" of b16 stroker, but if you beleive that is a good combos and fast,,,try to use it and go race with b20 with simple setup (std cams, 85 pistons, below std b20, type r intake with type r xtractor),,,with aboved setup also stroker will eat dust.[/QUOTE]


hip hip hoorayyyyyy......plus centreforce clutch cover and steel flywheel....

 

[shiroitenshi]

Johor vtec using bigger valve what,,,,yeah big difference in power eventhough they use intake only. FYI bigger valve doesn't impact compression,,,,,piston, gasket & dome ditermine compression ratios. If you talking about progressive compression,,,then only valve size, cams and intake manifold play the parts.

If you using high compression pistons,,,what is your target ignition,,,what fuel you gonna use ?? If you running 12.4 compression with 12 ignition,,i would call that setup "pathethic". If you compensate 16 ignition with 12.5 and a 100 octane fuel is consider pathethic as well.

PPL using bigger valve is bcoz flow was the limit, what's the use of oversize valve with standard 2 angle seat ?? No point at all,,,better use std size valve with smoothen 3 or 4 angle seat.

Shirotenshi,,,have you use stroker kit ?? have you ride one ? stroker is overrated, at least with b16/18 block. The power they produce is "tak cantik". I talk from experience since my guys did have a stroker set in b16 block. B20b stroker is whole different story.

I wont tell you what is the "disadvantage" of b16 stroker, but if you beleive that is a good combos and fast,,,try to use it and go race with b20 with simple setup (std cams, 85 pistons, below std b20, type r intake with type r xtractor),,,with aboved setup also stroker will eat dust.

Thanks for joining the fray... I'm really hoping to widen my knowlegde about possible mods in Honda engines and the effects they might incur and also possible mods that have been done in Malaysia before.

I know that compression isn't affected by bigger valves, just the flow. It was that I was thinking another purpose for the bigger valves, since we know that high lift cams and oversized valves are used to improve flow. Thinking about how oversized valves needing to have less lift, I assume that it will allow us to use higher compression pistons without risking hitting the valves as they return to their seats, as there is a limit to how fast the valves can return to their seats even with better springs and retainers (or is this assumption wrong totally?)

As for the higher compression, I'm thinking of eeking better power from pump fuels, not racing fuels. As such I'm hopefully expecting that we can run higher compressions to (try) obtain more power from the combustion. I know it's gonna be hell with the ignition settings, but sometimes learning is best done through discovery, if no one has done it yet. But if someone has done it, why not learn from them? Of course, with drag races being a priority for most H badge fans right now, everything is 'TRADE SECRET', which really sucks for people who just want more power without involving in drag battles.

There's a stroked B18C here, (no more, his damaged head was the above pic, and he went back to B16A after selling his stuff). I can't say for sure what you mean by power 'tak cantik' since we're not drag racers (just ppl with fully kitted interiors), and really just people interested in getting more power from a stock engine, thus we don't really compare our engine output, just discovering different forms of engine mods that can increase power.

I agree with you about the B20B strokers since there was a fellow here (visiting) that had a B20B with 260+whp on strokers. (he has the dyno sheet from an accquaintance's shop to prove it).

Currently one of the peeps is building a stroked B20B, and by chance (more like a mistake, actually) bought an oversided head from Japan. We're still trying to figure out the piston and cam choices, which sort of made me bring up this question.