Headwork for the B16 head.

[shiroitenshi]

Opinions/thoughts wanted: Oversized valves versus high lift, long duration cams.

Okay, admittedly being a newbie at ZTH Honda forum,
I'd like to know your experiences with headwork choices for the B16,B18 or the B20.

I've seen that most people go for higher lift cams with longer durations for more power, but I've never seen a Malaysian honda with oversized intake and exhaust valve ports on their 'head'. (not that head!)

I'm guessing that the oversized intake and exhaust valve ports allow you to run those super high compression pistons with more extreme concave surfaces without hitting the valves, but I've yet seen a car using those instead of high lift, long duration cams.

Have you guys seen one? I wonder if it's a better choice if going full NA, with no plans for turbo. I'm just wondering the rationale behind doing things that way. It doen't matter if it generates less power, I'm just trying the 'think different' philosophy by apple. :retarded:

 

[akuma]

IMHO,
swapping 2 higher lift cams is d easier route....its d same principal if u decide 2 stick 2 ur stock cams n go 4 oversized valve ports n valves...d idea is 2 jam more air fuel mixture into d combustion chamber,right?
BUT,cams r proven items....its manufactured according 2 specs n stringent control...
while a head porting job is very dependent on d workmanship of d person who's doing it...especially here in m'sia.....so,i guess dats y more n more ppl choose 2 swap cams coz its easier n sumhow,it give more peace of mind...
dis is my personal opinion,dun shoot me...
=)

 

[integramania]

akuma ur crx how? sudah modify kau kau ah?
crx team came out in hypertune wor....u not part of the group?

 

[shiroitenshi]

IMHO,
swapping 2 higher lift cams is d easier route....its d same principal if u decide 2 stick 2 ur stock cams n go 4 oversized valve ports n valves...d idea is 2 jam more air fuel mixture into d combustion chamber,right?
BUT,cams r proven items....its manufactured according 2 specs n stringent control...
while a head porting job is very dependent on d workmanship of d person who's doing it...especially here in m'sia.....so,i guess dats y more n more ppl choose 2 swap cams coz its easier n sumhow,it give more peace of mind...
dis is my personal opinion,dun shoot me...
=)

*Shoots you with a Uzi*

Hehe.. kidding. I thank you for your opinion. I thought that this forum was only filled with cosmetic 'tuners' and not engine enthusiasts since I didn't get a response.

Of course, cams are proven items. But the enjoyment for modding for me is about playing with things that are untested, or things aren't normally done.

Currently, I just stepped up to the B16A, and still waiting for the car to come out of the workshop.

I'm having the option of stepping up to the B18C, or the B20 at the beginning of next year, once I receive money from current ongoing projects. But all things considered, where is the fun of doing things that everyone else does?

I'm thinking about resleeving the B16A, and stroking it to 2 litres, with a longer stroke for more RPM. I'm thinking of making an RPM monster, although it's common sense that for torque, lower rpms are desirable.

I'm thinking Endyn for porting work. It's going to be expensive, but I think things that are hard to get makes you appreciate it more.

Still, I'm wondering if anyone in Malaysia runs really high compression in the region of 12+:1 with oversized valves.

 

[HanafyEG]

with money..anything can be done, u could try putting a K20A i vtec inside your EG after this, that would be different...then maybe a K24 block and 4 throttle...:regular_smile:

 

[hattech-v]

maybe someone here can share what is the spec for head job such as pnp size details, how much power gain from the head job etc etc....

rumors said here in malaysia pnp job is depen on ur luck. sometime can be good n somtime vice versa.


shiro, i dun think b16a can be stroked to 2L coz of the block height limitation.
u can try the calculation on the stroker by using the following formula...
3.142 * (piston size/10/2)^2 * (stroke size/10) * number of cylinder = cc

general info (bore x stroke) - (please correct me if wrong)
1. B16A (81mm x 77.4mm)
2. B16B (81mm x 77.4mm)
3. B18C (81mm x 87.2mm)
4. B20B (84mm x 90mm) - someone said 89mm - anyone can confirm?

here oso some sample on the cc calculation by oversizing the piston or making the cc bigger by stroker kit.


B16A (81mm piston with original stroke 77.4mm)
----------------------------------------------------
3.142 * (81/10/2)^2 * (77.4/10) * 4 = 1595cc


B16A (81mm piston with stroker 1.8 87.2mm) - i'm not sure whether this is possible or not.
----------------------------------------------------
3.142 * (81/10/2)^2 * (87.2/10) * 4 = 1797cc


B16A (oversize piston 83mm with original stroke 77.4mm)
----------------------------------------------------
3.142 * (83/10/2)^2 * (77.4/10) * 4 = 1675cc


B16A (oversize piston 83mm with 1.8 stroker 87.2mm) - again not sure wether its possible or not.
----------------------------------------------------
3.142 * (83/10/2)^2 * (87.2/10) * 4 = 1887cc


B16B/B18C (original piston 81mm with 2L stroker (B20B) 90mm) - someone said 2L stroke size is 89mm
----------------------------------------------------
3.142 * (81/10/2)^2 * (90/10) * 4 = 1885cc


B16B/B18C (original piston 81mm with aftermarket 2L stroker kit 97mm)
----------------------------------------------------
3.142 * (81/10/2)^2 * (90/10) * 4 = 1999cc


B20B (oversize piston 85mm with original stroke 90mm)
----------------------------------------------------
3.142 * (85/10/2)^2 * (90/10) * 4 = 2043cc

 

[HanJackaL]

Hi,what exactly does "stroke" mean ? How does stroker kit make the stroke bigger ?And why bigger stroke = bigger cc ? Can someone please explain to me the defination of "stroke" ?

Also,how can a oversize piston of 83 MM fit inside a cylinder with diameter of only 81 MM ? Must the cylinder be cut bigger for that ?

 

[shiroitenshi]

Hattech-v,

Actually crower makes strokers for B16A that ups the displacement to two litres (almost, more like 19XXcc)

I think they use pistons with the pin higher in the piston, intruding into the piston ring area. I think they also require reboring and resleeving, or else the block will be too weak to support 2L, but I'm not sure on this. I just looked through the 2006 catalogue, and it was on one of the pages with no mention of required sleeving or reboring (I borrowed it, so I can't browse through it now for the numbers). Anyway, at 9K (price varies depending on piston choice) thereabouts, it's a big entry fee, close to B20B already.. but the lack of piston sprayers on the B20 B really limits it's high rev capability, which sucks big time.. I wonder if anyone got around this problem already...?

Seeing Esprit's B20C (B20B, but named B20C by those Japanese ppl.) doing 9500rpm is mouthwatering, to say the least.

Anyway, I agree with you that someone should share their PnP experience, and horsepower gains from that. It would be interesting to see how well a PnP job (the ones done in Malaysia, that is) will offer in terms of horsepower gains.

HanafyEG,
K20 is an interesting preposition, but there's too much parts required, and futhermore, the wiring isn't exactly plug and play yet, even the ones made by hybrid-racing/hasport.

I guess I'll wait till the wiring is truly plug and play before jumping in. Currently, you still need to splice some wires to make the harness work (AFAIK, that is).

I don't think K24 will fit though, there's probably clearance issues since it's a tall block, even if we manage to fit the valve cover under the hood, the oil sump clearance is something to think about. Even the K20 has ground clearance issues for the sump on EGs.

Han Jackal,
Seems you're starting out to be interested in mechanical workings of that lump of steel under your hood. So I guess I'll give a quicky explanation.

Stroke = the distance the piston travels from the top of the cylinder to the bottom of the cyclinder. It offers extra displacement because the more distance it travels, the more air+fuel it can pull into the cylinder. Coupled with a bigger bore (piston diameter), it can increase displacement rather significantly.
The crankshaft is the item that affects the stroke, not the conrods. I mention this because I still remember when I first started learning about the engine, and thought that the stroke is affected by the conrod length, when in fact, it is not. What the conrod length affects is the average piston speed per stroke, which is another story entirely.

Oversized piston requires reboring (making the cylinder diameter bigger). There is a limit before you hit the water jacket (the cooling for your engine), or run the risk of having too thin a cylinder wall that it cracks easily.

One option that most people opting for a bigger bore is ductile iron sleeves, which are stronger, and hence can be made thinner without compromising the cyclinder wall strength. The entry fee for this is roughly 6K for GE sleeving work, last time I checked.

 

[xxxx]

ei akuma,

got ur face n car big big in hypertune wor....how many issues did u buy? hahahahahaha....

or chould i say, how much did u pay them? hahaha...

akuma's crx is fine now....n very powerful after reincarnation....

he'd welcome anyone who wants to test their stock b16A with him, rite akuma? hahahahhaha.... jk only ya....

 

[xxxx]

Hehe.. kidding. I thank you for your opinion. I thought that this forum was only filled with cosmetic 'tuners' and not engine enthusiasts since I didn't get a response.

Of course, cams are proven items. But the enjoyment for modding for me is about playing with things that are untested, or things aren't normally done.

Currently, I just stepped up to the B16A, and still waiting for the car to come out of the workshop.

I'm having the option of stepping up to the B18C, or the B20 at the beginning of next year, once I receive money from current ongoing projects. But all things considered, where is the fun of doing things that everyone else does?

I'm thinking about resleeving the B16A, and stroking it to 2 litres, with a longer stroke for more RPM. I'm thinking of making an RPM monster, although it's common sense that for torque, lower rpms are desirable.

I'm thinking Endyn for porting work. It's going to be expensive, but I think things that are hard to get makes you appreciate it more.

Still, I'm wondering if anyone in Malaysia runs really high compression in the region of 12+:1 with oversized valves.

bro,

not all members here r cosmetic 'tuners'......
sometimes they r busy or dun hav the time to answer "those" kind of questions...haha...

u've said it....u've never seen any yet in MALAYSIA...
altho m'sia boleh.....but pls dun get ur hopes too high for works done by others...unless u r doin it urself n u r confident with it....

hmmm......the definitions of modding joy is different for each n every one of us...u said things about untested? i suggest u swap a F20C inside ur EF/EG/EK for the future plans....i think tat'd be fun.....

by the way, interesting stuffs tat u wanna do with ur engine bro,
do keep us updated k?

cheers.

 

[shiroitenshi]

ei akuma,

got ur face n car big big in hypertune wor....how many issues did u buy? hahahahahaha....

or chould i say, how much did u pay them? hahaha...

akuma's crx is fine now....n very powerful after reincarnation....

he'd welcome anyone who wants to test their stock b16A with him, rite akuma? hahahahhaha.... jk only ya....

Actually why is getting a car on a mag such a big deal?
A lot of Malaysian rides that are really 'sick' (as in very nicely built) doesn't get featured at all, because the owner doesn't want to attract attention to themselves.

Seen a fully carbon kitted GTR34 V spec II in Malaysia? There's a couple (or more), and yet you don't see them on mags, as are some really nice Evo's, Silvia S15s, Hummer H3, etc. etc.

When I want to see a REALLY nice ride, Malaysian mags aren't the place to look to. (at least for me) :X-:

Oh, the plans will be in motion soon enough, on those mods..
F20C is too strange an idea lah... think my friends will kill me (or kutuk me forever) for spending that kind of money for a mod that doesn't offer much of performance gain, since a fully built B20B can makan a S2K easily for half the cost.

Dyno sheets coming soon, next month when I go down an get it dynoed... A stock B16A with intake/exhaust upgrade. Then compared to a similarly built EG with a sick sleeved B20B
I guarantee my B16A will look very pitiful. ROFL! not for too long, I hope.:emoticon_U:

 

[hattech-v]

shiro, thanks for the info on the crower 2L stroker for B16A...
with that price tag, i think better go for another option.. :)

 

[HanJackaL]

Thanks for the info shiro.I always thought displacement is only affected by cylinder size (how much air can be crammed into the cylinder),so i never thought it is actually possible to cut the block to jam in bigger diameter pistons or increase the piston travelling distance to increase displacement..very interesting.Learnt something new.So to increase the stroke,i am guessing the crank shaft needs to be bigger so that it gets a bigger turning circle therefore pulling the pistons down lower ?In that case,the crank will be heavier so that it takes up more energy to move the crank, and since turning circle is bigger,we lose out on low end power since the engine needs a longer time to gather up the momentum and also a longer time to turn the full circle?And bigger also means heavier,means it takes more energy to move the crank means lower power.So we get bigger displacement but less torque,wont that be an equal trade off ?

Piston sprayers ? What are those ? I thought the block only contains crank shaft,con rod,piston+piston rings ?Hehe...

Why is B20B 9K+ ? I thought the block only cost about RM1500 and with workmanship it will be around RM2-2.5 k ?B20B block with strengthen internals (Piston,crank shaft,con rod,valve spring) should be able to high rev without a problem right?

Correct me if i am wrong.
Thanks!

 

[orc3368]

4. B20B (84mm x 90mm) - someone said 89mm - anyone can confirm?




confirm 89mm of stroke for b20b i already measure it.

 

[orc3368]

Piston sprayers ? What are those ? I thought the block only contains crank shaft,con rod,piston+piston rings ?Hehe...

if u dismantle ur "vitek" block u will find there is 1 "steel" hose pointing up at the bottom of ur block at every cylinder.heheheh pandai juga ini org jepun can built in those thing i go and kasi patah that hose just to see where the oil come from.although logically i know where it came from

 

[xxxx]

Actually why is getting a car on a mag such a big deal?
A lot of Malaysian rides that are really 'sick' (as in very nicely built) doesn't get featured at all, because the owner doesn't want to attract attention to themselves.

Seen a fully carbon kitted GTR34 V spec II in Malaysia? There's a couple (or more), and yet you don't see them on mags, as are some really nice Evo's, Silvia S15s, Hummer H3, etc. etc.

When I want to see a REALLY nice ride, Malaysian mags aren't the place to look to. (at least for me) :X-:

Oh, the plans will be in motion soon enough, on those mods..
F20C is too strange an idea lah... think my friends will kill me (or kutuk me forever) for spending that kind of money for a mod that doesn't offer much of performance gain, since a fully built B20B can makan a S2K easily for half the cost.

Dyno sheets coming soon, next month when I go down an get it dynoed... A stock B16A with intake/exhaust upgrade. Then compared to a similarly built EG with a sick sleeved B20B
I guarantee my B16A will look very pitiful. ROFL! not for too long, I hope.:emoticon_U:

actually, it's no big deal to get into a mag....
if u hav the money, u can hav ur face on every page of the mag....
those expensive cars are so boring if featured...as long as u have the money, u can buy anything tat is made on this earth....
if u go to scenes from other countries, there's lot more than expensive cars.....

by the way, in the earlier post, do u mean malaysia dun hav ppl who port their intake n exhaust valves hole on the head? if yes, then i think there are ppl who had alrdy done it n his was featured in recent mags....

 

[shiroitenshi]

Hanjackal,
A B20B can go up to 30K, depending on stuff you are willing to pay.
Titanium rods, retainers, valvesprings, coated forged pistons, camshafts etc. etc. can really jack the price up.

Of course, the real deal is getting value out of your money, and B20B offers that, when you don't consider top of the line engine components, and just go for average usable parts.

As you mentioned about stroking.
You can increase the length of the stroke, but you will need a piston where the pin is located higher so that it doesn't hit the head. A bigger stroke camshaft will usually be made of billet, so it's definitely lighter than the stock one, which was constructed for mass production. Even so, the torque isn't from the rotational weight of a crankshaft, but more from the leverage it gets. Simply put, if you have to twist a valve, the bigger the valve handle, the easier it is to twist, right?

Of course, you don't see those kinds of things on production cars due to one simple reason. Vibration. the bigger the stroke, the more vibration will be present, even if the harmonic balancer compensates some. Another is that there is a limit to stroke length, which is ultimately, how tall your block is. If you've seen American Pro FWD unibody drag racers, notice their blocks are very tall, until the valve cover protrudes above the hood level.

As for piston sprayers, they spray oil into the cyclinder walls to cool off the wall and piston, which is one of the key design features that allows honda engines to rev reliably at high rpms.

Okay, with all that said, I'm still learning, and if you find out more on the above, maybe you could share it with me as well.

Orc3368,
A B20 is available in 87mm bore.. Golden Eagle iron ductile sleeves only. I think the final displacement is more than 2.2litres (it's 2.3 I think, but not sure), depending on stroke.

hattech-v,
What's your other option? I'm keen to know as well..

 

[hattech-v]

this one is piston sprayer that u mean rite?

shiro, the other option is to invest the money n creating more money using it... hehe...

 

[orc3368]

by the way, in the earlier post, do u mean malaysia dun hav ppl who port their intake n exhaust valves hole on the head? if yes, then i think there are ppl who had alrdy done it n his was featured in recent mags....

hhahaha i port my own 'vitek' head and condem already next send the other one to shop and port .crazy fella port my head as big as the gaskets holes.

 

[orc3368]

waa u ahhh hattech........ u open workshop kaaa??? straight away go take picture.. hahahhaha. By the way you got any H22A fuel injectors kaaa??? still can't find here laaa.dissapointed laaa the car pingking all the way...