AFR for b16a equip with b16b piston?

sky26

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All honda sifu, just wondering if b16a with b16b piston application need a richer AFR? Do i need to upgrade the injector to b18? or just plug in a piggy back ecu like apexi vafc? The engine also have a port and polish head, bored throttle body. Pls enlight:confused_smile: thanks
 
All honda sifu, just wondering if b16a with b16b piston application need a richer AFR? Do i need to upgrade the injector to b18? or just plug in a piggy back ecu like apexi vafc? The engine also have a port and polish head, bored throttle body. Pls enlight:confused_smile: thanks

cheapest way to increase fuel, is using fuel pressure regulator.

Easy to tune too, for part throttle/open loop, the ECU will control the injectors for stoich, via the O2 sensor.. so the increased pressure won't make your car feel heavy at part throttle.. WOT, a different story.

So bump up pressure in increments of .1-.2 bar around 3-3.5bar until you are satisfied.

Easy mod for beginner enthusiast to try at home, only need size 10 open end spanner.

Not as advanced as a piggyback, but it is cheaper and easier to learn.
 
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bro shiro.....issit possible for me to buy any regulator meter outside for rm55 and plug it into my oem fuel regulator??
 
thanks bro shiro! but it's necessary for me to set the afr richer for this high compression application, or just leave it stock since its capacity still a1.6??
 
richer than stoich should be fine. you dont want to oil your cylinder walls too much like a turbo car on an n/a car.

ps. what injectors are you running btw?

All honda sifu, just wondering if b16a with b16b piston application need a richer AFR? Do i need to upgrade the injector to b18? or just plug in a piggy back ecu like apexi vafc? The engine also have a port and polish head, bored throttle body. Pls enlight:confused_smile: thanks
 
Sky26,

fuel press is 2.5bar, 3bar without vac if you're using the stock regulator from the B16A, and if yours is not chipped or etc, it's likely it won't be enough and your plugs will show this. Take out your plugs, take photoes of your plugs tips and post here.

You can check your plug colour before you start.. are they dust brown, or some other colour? If you're seeing whitish tips, then consider bumping up the pressure a few points, even if you aren't getting knock.
Try increasing it bit by bit.. when you have it spot on, you should have your plugs showing that dust brown colour that you can always see when you take plugs out of a healthy running engine.

b16 and 18 injectors are the same if they are from honda.

Richer AFR may or may not increase power, depending on your setup.. in your case, I think it should, if the porting is done properly. Too rich usually results in fouling the plugs, so if you get this, you probably went too far.

Remember that using the regulator is a 'beginner' mod for enthusiast to control final AFR at WOT..
Of course piggyback/standalone does fuel management better, so you may one day consider the need to use them.
 
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injector from b18 with apexi vafc, and my car actually have some pinking noise (slightly) start from 2k rpm to 4.5rpm but not everytime??
 
injector from b18 with apexi vafc, and my car actually have some pinking noise (slightly) start from 2k rpm to 4.5rpm but not everytime??

Pinking or slight knocking depends on your outside temp.. my guess is that when you say 'not everytime', I would think that it's hot outside, it pinks, and when it's colder, the pinking disappears?

Does it happen at part throttle, or when you floor the throttle?

If this has just occured recently and didn't happen right after you got your VAFC, check your static ignition advance.. This would be something I'd do.

If it happened after the VAFC install and tune.. check the VAFC settings. You might need to finetune the VAFC for those 2-4.5K rev points. Can you identify how much air correction percentage at those points when the pinking occurs? and at what throttle percentage? and one final point before I forget.. VAFC with stock ECU, or VAFC with a chipped ECU?

I've forgotten if the plus percentage is lean, or rich. It's been quite a while since I played with it. It may have been running too lean if it causes knock.

Leaning out some fuel makes the car feel faster, but our malaysian temps are vastly different from one time to another, so that what works on a usual day may be too lean on a very hot day.
 
It happen on part throttle, but i think it do sometimes when i floor it and it happen only recently not right after installation of vafc. Static ignition advance, do you mean the the distributor timing? If so what the timing reading should be, pls suggest? I did try before enrich 2 to 4 % afr on the 2-4.5k rpm via the vafc the knocking did reduce, but there is blowing sound from my exhaust like misfiring when i lift my foot from the gas pedal at around 3 to 4k rpm, guess its too rich. pls enlight. thanks bro Shiro, for your time n patients.
 
should be 16 or so at idle.. for stock B16A, and since it's on a b16B pistons, maybe can play safe and set it to 13-14 and see if the knock disappears.. it will kill a bit of power theoretically, but you can tweak it higher in conjuction with the VAFC/fuel press. later on. Anyway, it's a good idea to check your distributor timing and see where it's at.. it's still good to know when the pinking occurs, with regards to temp, so that's a bit of info that is useful.

As for VAFC.. you need to know exactly when it's knocking, so get your VAFC to display the TPS, air correction % and RPM, then try to remember to note where the pinking happens.

Note exactly when it happens, then move the RPM point to the rpm point where the knocks occur, and tweak at that point.. It's the reason why VAFC has programmable RPM points, so you can specifically add fuel at that rpm point if you only have issues at that rpm point. The prev & next rpm point air correction is extrapolated from the value you entered at that specific rpm point, so it should NOT be too far apart like 1.5Krpm or something.. unless you're really trying to retain the prev and next rpm point air correction values.

If all else fails, reinitialize and start over.. since B16B pistons has higher compression, retard the distributor till the knocking stops (best do this on a very hot day, with the engine bay temps already hot.) then tune your VAFC.

From what I can remember, enriching it causes a slight reduction in timing, so it should not be knocking if you enrich it a bit. (not sure though, it's been a while.. or was it the reverse? I think I'm right on that first part tho.)

Do note that I THINK(therefore I'm not sure.. (O_o))

+ve air correction does not mean enriching the mixture.. from what I can remember.. it displays what it displays.. air correction percentage, not fuel %.

If I'm not wrong, -ve air correction % = richer mixture. I could be wrong, so better double check that. I think it's right though, because I think I remember my maps were like -11% at 8K, so obviously I'm not leaning my engine out at high rpms, aren't I? and during that stage I was only running 2.5 (3bar without vac) fuel pressure.

Anyway, on part throttle, assuming your ECU is a stock ECU with a knockboard, you should be getting a checklight due to the knock sensor.

If not, you're probably runnning a chipped ECU, in which case, could be a source of your problem as well, as the VAFC only 'moves' the point of reference in the ECU stock mapping. So what it does is it makes the ECU think that it's reading higher load than normal, thus inject more fuel. hence what VAFC does is not control the injectors, but control what pressure the MAP sensor is seeing so the ECU thinks that it's seeing higher load, so it will read the part in the table where fuelling or injector duration is more.

At part throttle, it should be a closed loop system, aiming for 14.7 AFR. The tip in will read something like 13.5-12.8 or so, but after that it should revert to 14.7 at the exact same part throttle %. This is something I've discovered after logging my AFR, P30 on a B16A.

So if it happens at part throttle and only at that particular rpm range.. that's strange.. either your ECU is running open loop, or somehow only that part of the mapping on the ECU has too lean a fuelling, or too high an ignition value.

Or it could be something else... too sleepy to think about it now.. maybe tommorow.
 
get it tuned on the dyno. when u start to hear knocks inside the cabin, thats bad already. i rather have bubble flames a bit than detonation.
 
how to know the knocking sound? I'm bit confused with teppet sound..
 
try to climb hill at 5th gear with 2k rpm...
or like those old saga passing the bumper without changing the gear.. haha
 
in honda they use lost motion asemblies(LMA)....unlike mitsu have hydraulic lifters(tappet)...

the knocking sound is like a hummering electric drill.

how to know the knocking sound? I'm bit confused with teppet sound..
 
Thanks bro Shiro and bro J101, i will get my mechanic check the ignition timing this saturday and play with the vafc later on. Bcoz he just brought the innovate LM1 kit with aux box, the one bro shiro workings on. When i get the result , i will let u guys know. thanks for all the infos...
 
Thanks bro Shiro and bro J101, i will get my mechanic check the ignition timing this saturday and play with the vafc later on. Bcoz he just brought the innovate LM1 kit with aux box, the one bro shiro workings on. When i get the result , i will let u guys know. thanks for all the infos...

Yeah.. let us know of the results.

Sensors that you must have wired is TPS (so you know when is the part where you are at WOT)
Rpm (For obvious reasons)
G sensor (so you can see the g's you're pulling, and can calculate hp if you have some data on your car)
Duty cycle (so you can see exactly how far you're pushing your injectors.
Speed sensor/EGT (well.. this is optional)

Some old school mechs like using EGT as a guidance for ignition tuning, some don't.

The LM-1 will log the AFR, so you can see if it happens due to leaning out, or having too much ignition advance.
 
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i just added the meter today.....and found out my car was running 4 bar all the while LOL.....asked the mech at amoil to tune it down to 3 bar......but after driving awhile i check again it went back up to 3.8 bar O_O..........but when i red the car it drops to 3.5......not connected to vaccuum......

does it mean that if in my case.....i want it at 3 or 3.2 bar....means i have to set it at approximately 3.5 bar?
 
Enthusiast..

I'm not sure what you mean by no connected to vaccum, as most fuel regs I've seen on honda are vacuum referenced, so when connected, at idle it will show 3 bar, and when at WOT, (where there is no vacuum, which is the same situation where you disconnect the vacuum line), it will show 3.5 bar

What I do is set the fuel pressure to 3 bar with vacuum reference (vacuum connected), then when at wot, it will jump up to 3.5. The difference is usually .5 bar for sards and honda units. For other brands.. I'm not sure.

As for your readings fluctuating, I'm wondering either you didn't screw it tight enough or something.. but with sards fuel pres, even finger tight won't deviate on a short test drive.

4 bar on a 1.6? And what ecu? Just curious about how rich you were running it all these while.

What meter are you using? So far, the only ones I've used is the sard's and a honda's one.
 
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