328i Lost to A4T

[ZeeDr]

Seriously, ZTH is a car enthusiasts' site.. And there are many kinds of car enthusiasts around.. Some ppl buy expensive cars & just want to cruise around and show off their cars.. Some ppl modify heavily on appearance.. While some invest on loud sound systems & blast music for the whole neighbourhood.. I choose to just get a powerful & comfortable car within my budget and drive enthusiastically.. Why cant a 3 series choose to drag with an Audi? IS it that ONLY Japanese cars qualify to be driven hard? Is it becos ppl here r used to seeing too many modded Hondas, Evos etc racing around? Too much 'Fast & Furious' movies perhaps? I mean if I really wanted to race, the 328 would be a good base to start a complete transformation into an Evo beating beast! Do check out the latest Hartge modded 3 series.. SOmetimes, the adrenaline rush is where we put the pedal to the metal.. And this is not about showing off.. I dont recall what Autocar wrote about the M5.. But in my opinion, it is definitely one of the best saloons around if not the best..

 

[si|verfish]

I don't know who your response is directed to in general, but I'll just explain my earlier post in case it is me.

Firstly, I was having a dig at the "Ultimate Driving Machine" tag which I personally find very funny. Its like calling myself the second coming of Christ, if you know what I mean.

Secondly, the M5 is a cracking piece of machine, no doubt. But I'll summarise what Autocar basically told the readers:

1) M5 > F430
and then...
2) F430 > 997 911
but...
3) 997 911 > M5
wtf???

So, in summary either one of the writers were on crack or all of them are. I choose to think the guy who wrote 1) has issues, either drug induced or plain biasedness.

BTW, I have no problems with whatever you decide to do with your car. And it is a nice car.

 

[HanJackaL]

Guess i got my point proven so i will just leave it at that.Initially i was just confused why do people buy a BMW 3 series sedan to test power.And if want to test power,why only test with "same" class.Because to me,the BMW 3 series Sedan is the comfort class.What for test with other comfort cars in performance?Shouldnt you be testing comfort and luxury/safety features instead?And if want to test performance,why not test with Japanese cars as well?

But i guess everyone has their own personal driving style and different reasons on buying a car.Heck i seen Kancils trying to catch up to cars 10 times more powerfull to them as well.

Sorry if i offended anyone in my earlier posts =)

 

[Casanova]

Audi 2.0T = 207 hp
BMW 328 = 197 hp
both weigh about the same

That should answer your question as to why you lost. Not to mention his car is newer and prolly has better technology that makes it faster.

What's sad is that a stock Honda Integra can beat a 325. The 325 has less hp, more weight, eventhough it has bigger litre engine.

 

[HanJackaL]

Audi 2.0T = 207 hp
BMW 328 = 197 hp
both weigh about the same

That should answer your question as to why you lost. Not to mention his car is newer and prolly has better technology that makes it faster.

What's sad is that a stock Honda Integra can beat a 325. The 325 has less hp, more weight, eventhough it has bigger litre engine.

Yes you are right.At the end of the day,power to weight ratio is the most important.Bigger CC is only important when we comparing 2 engines with same technology.Such as 318I VS 325I.But now with Vtec and all that cam lifting technology and close gear ratio,smaller CC engine dont "gasp" for air at high RPM and the result is smooth power delivery even on high end.The result is,very fast pick up,and reach top speed very fast.. stable also because its light and flat torque curve.

During the day i like driving my parent's automatic continental car.Quite a while ago,I was driving my mom's 328I with full M3 body kit and exhaust,got bullied by 1 Honda CRX(Early 90s honda) at the traffic light..he didnt allow me to cut into his lane but i squeezed in and after the traffic light,he tail gate me.So i put to "Sports" and floor my car.All he need to do is just swerve to the left and cut me like nothing.Within seconds, cant even see his car.And i think he is only using B16A engine.After that pester parents to sell their car and they bought Mercedes C200K. At least dont look so "sporty" to attract people to tail gate and more classy than BMW.My parent's 328I has full M3 body kit,rims,exhaust and all that stuff ..looks so fast and fierce but actually not much power..feel a bit poserish.No offense to 3 series owners with M3 body kit..=)

Its the horsepower and weight that matters the most.People talk about torque..saying continental cars have such great torque so its superior to Japanese cars.But to my understanding and trials,i find that the total sum of Horsepower is derived from the combination of torque + engine speed.

So a 500 horsepower engine with low torque but 10,000 RPM is same as a 500 horsepower engine with double the torque and 5000 RPM.Just that its used for different applications.500 HP with 10,000 RPM is better during cornering because you can full throttle all the way during apex and exiting.But the car with 500 HP and high torque you must control throttle application during corner if not you will lose your tail (for RWD).Can anyone tell me what advantages does a high torque car have comparing to a high engine speed one?Assuming both cars have similar Power to weight ratio and horsepower of course.

Correct me if i am talking any nonsense please..all i said above is based on my driving experience..

 

[si|verfish]

Not that I'm a track expert or anything; but the Americans will tell you that horsepower sells cars, torque wins races.

Basically its the torque that does the work of moving a vehicle. More torque means more force to move the car. BHP is the rate at which the torque does its work. Basically you want usable thrust at useful RPMs. Doesn't necessarily mean high RPMs. If you are driving a race car, you want lots of the poke up high because that is where you will be most times. If you drive a car for everyday, you want useable power all over.

Usually when you push an engine to make peak horsepower at high revs you lose peak torque. And vice versa. Bear in mind I'm just speaking from my own observations, so I might be wrong. Take the new Audi S4 for instance. They used a Lambo V10 from the Gallardo. In the Gallardo it makes more bhp but in the S4 it makes more torque down low. And that makes sense because you want a peaky engine for sportiness and you want a muscular engine for autobahn cruising.

But you cannot make an absolute case on which is best for a "normal" car. These are not race cars built for a specific purpose. A revvy car needs short and close ratios for its gearbox to take advantage of its relatively short powerband. A torquey motor can take advantage of really tall gearing. Read the Z06 Vette road tests. You can pull with one gear most times even when cornering while a revvy car would probably need to shift a hell of a lot more to stay in its narrower powerband.

BTW, it isn't fair to compare the engine out of a car like a 328 (built for normal use) to an engine out of a car like a CTR or a DC2. Those are pretty high end engines for sportier driving. If you really want to compare, take the one from the M3 and see how the Japs like it.

 

[Ingolstadt]

Guess i got my point proven so i will just leave it at that.Initially i was just confused why do people buy a BMW 3 series sedan to test power.And if want to test power,why only test with "same" class.Because to me,the BMW 3 series Sedan is the comfort class.What for test with other comfort cars in performance?Shouldnt you be testing comfort and luxury/safety features instead?And if want to test performance,why not test with Japanese cars as well?

You know why? Coz a 318 is times more capable than a Altis 1.8

Both are similiar sized sedans. Yupe, Altis might have the advantage in pick up due to its 1050kg body (very light, integra DC4 lightness).

I'll tell you why people would test performance on a 3 series sedan. Because they're darn capable. Get an Altis/Civic and a 318 (all stock) around the Nurburgring, then you'll know. If you wanna say zip zapping across the streets like hooligans, then i am confident to EAT a 328 with my kancil 850 manual in Old Klang Road at 4pm. If you wanna play drag race, it depends on the length. Perhaps a modded Kancil Turbo can win a 328 in a 0 - 400m race, however for a 100km drag, can the Kancil driver maintain at constant speeds of 180km/h ? I would bet his balls would've fallen somewhere between the first 3-4 kms..

There has to be an Ultimate balance in ride comfort, luxury, handling and performance, and i think BMW 3 series hit it darn straight. oh, A4s and Alfas as well.

 

[si|verfish]

Actually the Beemers hit it straighter than most. Audi's have not exactly been known to be "a driver's car". Even the most sporting versions like the RS4, until recently. Alfas on the other hand, are mostly front wheel drive and that takes a lot of dynamic polish away, and you can try to engineer your way around the problem, but there still is a problem. Just like the Porsche 911 with its arse engine configuration. They've just about defeated the laws of physics with that car, but still it has its idiosyncrasies and you need to drive it a certain way to get the most out of it.

 

[jugbugz]

Hi ZeeDr,

Sad to hear you lost to an Audi A4T. I think probally your gear changes were slow because the 328 would normally beat the A4T.

Is your car manual or steptronic? Steptronic is 1sec slower from 0-100 compared with the manual.

The Audi is pretty much a bit heavier than the 328. If it was the 1.8T then you would've won, the 2.0Tquattro however has only 9hp more than the 328 but the 4 wheel drive system adds a lot more kgs to the car. eg.Skyline GTR 1600kg+ vs Skyline GTT 1400kg.

Audi's website doesn't state all the specs of the car clearly or in detail which is pretty dumb unlike bmw. But pretty much the 328 would have better power to weight ratio.

BMW's would beat the Audi's around a track, as the chassis and balance is really good. That's what BMW's are famous for. It's not just about power but package.

BTW, audi quotes a 0-100 time of 7.5sec for it's A4 2.0T Quattro(manual). BMW's 328 is 7secs Manual.
I'm pretty sure it was your gear shift, is it a manual?
Eric

 

[jugbugz]

ZeeDr..
What wheel size have you got on your car? Bigger wheels, less power to the floor.
Eric

 

[jugbugz]

Yes you are right.At the end of the day,power to weight ratio is the most important.Bigger CC is only important when we comparing 2 engines with same technology.Such as 318I VS 325I.But now with Vtec and all that cam lifting technology and close gear ratio,smaller CC engine dont "gasp" for air at high RPM and the result is smooth power delivery even on high end.The result is,very fast pick up,and reach top speed very fast.. stable also because its light and flat torque curve.

During the day i like driving my parent's automatic continental car.Quite a while ago,I was driving my mom's 328I with full M3 body kit and exhaust,got bullied by 1 Honda CRX(Early 90s honda) at the traffic light..he didnt allow me to cut into his lane but i squeezed in and after the traffic light,he tail gate me.So i put to "Sports" and floor my car.All he need to do is just swerve to the left and cut me like nothing.Within seconds, cant even see his car.And i think he is only using B16A engine.After that pester parents to sell their car and they bought Mercedes C200K. At least dont look so "sporty" to attract people to tail gate and more classy than BMW.My parent's 328I has full M3 body kit,rims,exhaust and all that stuff ..looks so fast and fierce but actually not much power..feel a bit poserish.No offense to 3 series owners with M3 body kit..=)

Its the horsepower and weight that matters the most.People talk about torque..saying continental cars have such great torque so its superior to Japanese cars.But to my understanding and trials,i find that the total sum of Horsepower is derived from the combination of torque + engine speed.

So a 500 horsepower engine with low torque but 10,000 RPM is same as a 500 horsepower engine with double the torque and 5000 RPM.Just that its used for different applications.500 HP with 10,000 RPM is better during cornering because you can full throttle all the way during apex and exiting.But the car with 500 HP and high torque you must control throttle application during corner if not you will lose your tail (for RWD).Can anyone tell me what advantages does a high torque car have comparing to a high engine speed one?Assuming both cars have similar Power to weight ratio and horsepower of course.

Correct me if i am talking any nonsense please..all i said above is based on my driving experience..

More torque means more acceleration, more horsepower means more top speed.
Theres not much foundation about what you said about hp and torque, so it's hard to answer your question. You forgot to mention about Rpm which is how the engine delivers the power. Theres nothing wrong with having torque

If we take 2 cars both N/A or turbo, one with 500hp and 500Nm and the other with 450hp and 500Nm, both have 7000rpm redline just for example.
The 500hp car hits maximum hp and torque at a high rpm of 5500rpm all the way to the redline, and the other 450hp car hits maximum torque @ 3000rpm all the way to the redline and max hp at 6000rpm. Which car do you think would win from 0-100???

Another question, I'll ask you is. Which do you think is faster; E46 M3 or 330td?
E46 M3: 343hp @ 7900rpm / 365nm @ 4900rpm
E90 330td: 231hp / 500nm @ 1750rpm

eric :)

 

[HanJackaL]

One thing i am very confused about...when someone says a car reach Max torque at 4000 RPM and max HP and 6000 RPM,what does it mean?

Torque is the power that delivers to the wheels,if reach max power (torque) at 4000 RPM,wont the engine MAX hp be delivered at 4000 RPM?When a car reaches max torque at 4000 RPM,will the maximum torque be constant till 6000 RPM or after 4000 RPM torque slowly drops till 6000 RPM ?

 

[Ingolstadt]

Hi ZeeDr,

Sad to hear you lost to an Audi A4T. I think probally your gear changes were slow because the 328 would normally beat the A4T.

Is your car manual or steptronic? Steptronic is 1sec slower from 0-100 compared with the manual.

The Audi is pretty much a bit heavier than the 328. If it was the 1.8T then you would've won, the 2.0Tquattro however has only 9hp more than the 328 but the 4 wheel drive system adds a lot more kgs to the car. eg.Skyline GTR 1600kg+ vs Skyline GTT 1400kg.

Audi's website doesn't state all the specs of the car clearly or in detail which is pretty dumb unlike bmw. But pretty much the 328 would have better power to weight ratio.

BMW's would beat the Audi's around a track, as the chassis and balance is really good. That's what BMW's are famous for. It's not just about power but package.

BTW, audi quotes a 0-100 time of 7.5sec for it's A4 2.0T Quattro(manual). BMW's 328 is 7secs Manual.
I'm pretty sure it was your gear shift, is it a manual?
Eric

You partly correct, and partly wrong. A buyer of an Audi A4 B7 2.0TFSi Quattro, can opt for a chipped package with extra few k, the car would be generating 260hp. That's something a 330 couldn't even compete. Then on the laws of power to weight ratio, one has to test the FSi engine to know of its instant performance, add to the fact of the turbo, a 2.0T is definitely a straight line dragger compared to a 328. And of course, Quattro helps alot in pickup. :)

And to say a steptronic vs a manual thingy ... there's no manual 2.0T offered here. And one more thing, BMWs steptronic is inferior to that of VAGs, thats a known fact. And lastly, ever saw the video between a automatic Golf GTi(200hp), and a manual 6 speed Vauxhall Astra (250hp); driven by the drift king of japan ? The Golf wins hands down. Hence, we have to consider on a lot of technological advances that aids in pick up, gear shifts and the shiftings in optimum power band, rather than the perceived manual > steptronic > auto perception we had.

Like i said, the stretch is short to proof anything. :)

 

[jugbugz]

Torque and Horsepower is different.

Torque is the amount of pulling power and horsepower is top speed. You have got this perception in the wrong way. Torque is also affected by weight.

Yes when the peak torque is hit, it will drop slowly till the redline. Same with Horsepower. But peak horsepower is normally gained near redline anyway. The torque curve is different according to how the engine is setup. e.g N/A, turbo, turbo diesel or supercharged system. You will understand more about it when you've seen a dyno graph of those types of engines.

Have you ever sit in a car when you punt the accelerator then you get pushed into the seat? That feeling is the cause from torque not hp. A car that can go up to 280kmph means its got a lot of hp. So for everyday driving, you will have more fun with a car that has a lot of torque.

But if you got a car thats got a lot of torque and hp then you have 1 brutal accelerating car in all gears even at high speed.

Another example is that when you are going up a steep hill, this is where torque really shines and hp doesn't mean much. A car with more torque would still maintain its accelaration where as the car with less torque would be more affected considering that both cars have the same weight that is.

Actually there was a comparison with the E46 M3 and the 330 Turbo diesel.
On paper 0-100 the M3 won. But the comparison from 80-120 in 4th gear the 330td won by a massive 2 secs. This was becasue of the 500nm torque compared to the 365nm of the M3. So really you can't compare on the paper where real life driving conditions needs to be considered. Imagine the M3 and the 330td cruising at about 60kms side by side. Then both of them punt the throttle at the same time. The 330td would have jumped in front by half a cars length.

My point is that torque is important.

 

[jugbugz]

You partly correct, and partly wrong. A buyer of an Audi A4 B7 2.0TFSi Quattro, can opt for a chipped package with extra few k, the car would be generating 260hp. That's something a 330 couldn't even compete. Then on the laws of power to weight ratio, one has to test the FSi engine to know of its instant performance, add to the fact of the turbo, a 2.0T is definitely a straight line dragger compared to a 328. And of course, Quattro helps alot in pickup. :)

And to say a steptronic vs a manual thingy ... there's no manual 2.0T offered here. And one more thing, BMWs steptronic is inferior to that of VAGs, thats a known fact. And lastly, ever saw the video between a automatic Golf GTi(200hp), and a manual 6 speed Vauxhall Astra (250hp); driven by the drift king of japan ? The Golf wins hands down. Hence, we have to consider on a lot of technological advances that aids in pick up, gear shifts and the shiftings in optimum power band, rather than the perceived manual > steptronic > auto perception we had.

Like i said, the stretch is short to proof anything. :)

uhh.... I didn't know that I was comparing a chipped 2.0T?

And we don't even know if the car was chipped or not? I was asking the guy with the 328 if he had a steptronic or manual as shifting times and power transfered to the wheels makes a big difference. Anyone who's driven an automatic 200sx and a manual one would know? I tell you they feel like totally different cars. Transmission does make a difference. And it might be the reason that he lost to the A4?

Anyway I know what you are trying to say and it comes down to the power to weight ratio, torque delivery and weight of the cars. Forced induction cars generally produce good torque especially when tweaked. But we are comparing stock 328 and stock A42.0T. There's not much difference between the 2. Except if the 328 was a steptronic. That would shave 1sec off the 0-100 time for the 328.

I doubt that the tweaked version Audi would beat the E46 330i manual in a straight line or even on a track, especially the E90 version. 330 claims 0-100 times of 6.3 - 6.5secs. The audi is heavier for sure. And 29Hp difference doesn't tell everything without considering torque and weight. Quattro would have a good start but thats all.
But yeah.. it would woop the stock 328.

BMW generally have much better balance than Audi's overall. That's why in every magazine comparison, the bmw wins over the audi and benz.

 

[jugbugz]

You partly correct, and partly wrong. A buyer of an Audi A4 B7 2.0TFSi Quattro, can opt for a chipped package with extra few k, the car would be generating 260hp. That's something a 330 couldn't even compete. Then on the laws of power to weight ratio, one has to test the FSi engine to know of its instant performance, add to the fact of the turbo, a 2.0T is definitely a straight line dragger compared to a 328. And of course, Quattro helps alot in pickup. :)

And to say a steptronic vs a manual thingy ... there's no manual 2.0T offered here. And one more thing, BMWs steptronic is inferior to that of VAGs, thats a known fact. And lastly, ever saw the video between a automatic Golf GTi(200hp), and a manual 6 speed Vauxhall Astra (250hp); driven by the drift king of japan ? The Golf wins hands down. Hence, we have to consider on a lot of technological advances that aids in pick up, gear shifts and the shiftings in optimum power band, rather than the perceived manual > steptronic > auto perception we had.

Like i said, the stretch is short to proof anything. :)

I really thought I was talking about his straight line drag... :confused_smile:

 

[Ingolstadt]

I'll explain torque and hp in a laymen's term. Make circles with your hand, relaxed, loosely held hands. Make fast circle but your hands are relaxed, THAT, is high hp. Now grip your hand tight, fists, muscles all strengthened up, then turn slowly, this is torque.

An Evo is faster than a Lorry, but a lorrie can push 3 evos in the front while pulling 3 skylines from the back. THAT, IS TORQUE. Bigger engines, (i.e. big, huge pistons, camshafts, crankshafts and so on...) might be very heavy to turn fast, but when they turn, they generate huge torques.

That's why there's a difference between a GTR's 280hp and an Evo's 280hp.

 

[jugbugz]

Exactly...
The delivery of x amount of torque at x amount of rpm will be the acceleration that you feel. Considering the weight of the cars too... :)

 

[HanJackaL]

So how come a Vtec that has low torque can accelerate so fast but not much Gforce?Lets compare a Honda S2000 and Nissan Silvia S15.S15 got much higher torque than S2000 and it comes much earlier.But 0-60 MPH times are similar.How come ?

 

[Casanova]

So how come a Vtec that has low torque can accelerate so fast but not much Gforce?Lets compare a Honda S2000 and Nissan Silvia S15.S15 got much higher torque than S2000 and it comes much earlier.But 0-60 MPH times are similar.How come ?

I'm pretty sure the s2k weighs a lot less than the s15