improve road handling

[Izso]

Mine has 2 size...Rear ARB is either 16mm and the other is 20mm. Front is 20mm..

But they also have an upgrade for my Torsion Beam Bar 20mm...

If I change the Rear Torsion Beam Bar is it necessary then? or just both ARB will do?

If I were to take 20mm Front ARB + Rear 16mm = Understeer characteristic
and if 20mm Front ARB + 20mm Rear ARB = also understeer then?

Since balanced up front and rear...Or I just might get the same characteristic as now but just less body roll...

Unless I upgrade the Torsion Beam to 20mm then I might get more oversteer?

Doesn't work that way. And the over/understeer characteristics is not going to be so obvious. Don't think powerslides and stuff. It'll change the characteristics of the car, not make your car a powerslide god. And you're using a torsion beam setup, so it'll be soft regardless of bar size. Too thick and you might transfer the weight from the beam to your bar, which will make the anchor points of the bar extremely stressed and that's bad for your chassis.

Don't end up destroying your chassis just because you want it stiff. Handling doesn't work that way.

 

[vr2turbo]

Doesn't work that way. And the over/understeer characteristics is not going to be so obvious. Don't think powerslides and stuff. It'll change the characteristics of the car, not make your car a powerslide god. And you're using a torsion beam setup, so it'll be soft regardless of bar size. Too thick and you might transfer the weight from the beam to your bar, which will make the anchor points of the bar extremely stressed and that's bad for your chassis.

Don't end up destroying your chassis just because you want it stiff. Handling doesn't work that way.

Bro Izso have spoken, Need to tune one and find the exact ratings, Under not good, neither is over.....

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

Mine has 2 size...Rear ARB is either 16mm and the other is 20mm. Front is 20mm..

But they also have an upgrade for my Torsion Beam Bar 20mm...

If I change the Rear Torsion Beam Bar is it necessary then? or just both ARB will do?

If I were to take 20mm Front ARB + Rear 16mm = Understeer characteristic
and if 20mm Front ARB + 20mm Rear ARB = also understeer then?

Since balanced up front and rear...Or I just might get the same characteristic as now but just less body roll...

Unless I upgrade the Torsion Beam to 20mm then I might get more oversteer?

to simplify things....lets look on stock setup first....and calculate the ARB size differences in percentage....


as long as u keep the percentage upgrade within close range (example: 30% upgrade front with 28% upgrade rear) i would say car balance would be like stock setup..but less body roll...


but if u choose different upgrade percentage like my other car (example: +30% front with +40% rear) my car behave towards more oversteer (snap oversteer to be precise) but thats what i want because that car already setup with too many understeer in the first place.....(with my driving style anyway)......


to say it in even simpler words....what ever upgrade/change u made to the car....dont go too extreme on only certain parts...take sensible upgrade in all aspect..... (make the springs+struts+arb combo work in harmonic way: firm spring+firm damper+firm arb would be good)

example:

stock= soft spring+soft damper+soft arb = comfort but floaty with a lot of bodyroll in corner

soft spring+soft damper+firm arb = comfort and floaty but less bodyroll in corner


when most people go upgrade with adjustable suspension


- hard spring+hard damper+hard arb= BAD (meant for track setup anyway)
- hard spring+firm damper+hard arb= BAD
- hard spring+soft damper+hard arb= BAD damper
- hard spring+hard damper+firm arb= not too good (bouncy ride but still got bodyroll)
- hard spring+hard damper+soft arb= not too good (bodyroll like stock car..just more stable because of harder spring and damper)

- firm spring+hard damper+hard arb= not too good (harsh ride)
- firm spring+firm damper+hard arb= not too good...harsh on rough surface but really good on highspeed cornering (using this setup in my wife daily driven satria)
- firm spring+soft damper+hard arb= damper could kong easily
- firm spring+hard damper+firm arb= not too good on bumpy road, good on high speed straight and cornering (but i'm using this setup for my heavyweight boxer and liking it much)
- firm spring+firm damper+firm arb= GOOD average everything which suits most people
- firm spring+firm damper+soft ARB= good for some...but most wants better handling than this hence need the better ARB upgrade

_________________________________________________________________________

MY (*me..other may not agree) suggestion best work for most normal people daily driver is:

soft close to stock spring+firm damper+firm ARB... (and this is what most newer proton use to promote handling tuned by lotus anyway )

____________________________________________________

previously once i tried big ARB rear+stock ARB front on my satria....because of short body..snap oversteer become more obvious...and didnt want spend much on expensive front ARB..hence the front stock ARB that alreadby big, gets new ARB link at diff location...and it became HARD arb setting... but thats good because it force me to soften the spring rate front and rear.....which now the current setting was....

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

to simplify things....lets look on stock setup first....and calculate the ARB size differences in percentage....


as long as u keep the percentage upgrade within close range (example: 30% upgrade front with 28% upgrade rear) i would say car balance would be like stock setup..but less body roll...


but if u choose different upgrade percentage like my other car (example: +30% front with +40% rear) my car behave towards more oversteer (snap oversteer to be precise) but thats what i want because that car already setup with too many understeer in the first place.....(with my driving style anyway)......


to say it in even simpler words....what ever upgrade/change u made to the car....dont go too extreme on only certain parts...take sensible upgrade in all aspect..... (make the springs+struts+arb combo work in harmonic way: firm spring+firm damper+firm arb would be good)

example:

stock= soft spring+soft damper+soft arb = comfort but floaty with a lot of bodyroll in corner

soft spring+soft damper+firm arb = comfort and floaty but less bodyroll in corner


when most people go upgrade with adjustable suspension


- hard spring+hard damper+hard arb= BAD (meant for track setup anyway)
- hard spring+firm damper+hard arb= BAD
- hard spring+soft damper+hard arb= BAD damper
- hard spring+hard damper+firm arb= not too good (bouncy ride but still got bodyroll)
- hard spring+hard damper+soft arb= not too good (bodyroll like stock car..just more stable because of harder spring and damper)

- firm spring+hard damper+hard arb= not too good (harsh ride)
- firm spring+firm damper+hard arb= not too good...harsh on rough surface but really good on highspeed cornering (using this setup in my wife daily driven satria)
- firm spring+soft damper+hard arb= damper could kong easily
- firm spring+hard damper+firm arb= not too good on bumpy road, good on high speed straight and cornering (but i'm using this setup for my heavyweight boxer and liking it much)
- firm spring+firm damper+firm arb= GOOD average everything which suits most people
- firm spring+firm damper+soft ARB= good for some...but most wants better handling than this hence need the better ARB upgrade

_________________________________________________________________________

MY (*me..other may not agree) suggestion best work for most normal people daily driver is:

soft close to stock spring+firm damper+firm ARB... (and this is what most newer proton use to promote handling tuned by lotus anyway )

____________________________________________________

previously once i tried big ARB rear+stock ARB front on my satria....because of short body..snap oversteer become more obvious...and didnt want spend much on expensive front ARB..hence the front stock ARB that alreadby big, gets new ARB link at diff location...and it became HARD arb setting... but thats good because it force me to soften the spring rate front and rear.....which now the current setting was....

Firm Springs and Damper as in Sports Suspension and Sports Springs? Cuz I believe Hard ones would actually be Adjustables?

Hmm...since my UR front ARB is 20mm. I think to balance it up, I think the rear would need 20mm rear ARB instead then...suspension is soft and springs i oem

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

Firm Springs and Damper as in Sports Suspension and Sports Springs? Cuz I believe Hard ones would actually be Adjustables?

Hmm...since my UR front ARB is 20mm. I think to balance it up, I think the rear would need 20mm rear ARB instead then...suspension is soft and springs i oem

i just put term of soft-firm-hard is because...

1-stock confirm is soft...

2-sport most is soft...but some also got hard type (rate)

3-adjustable suspension not all hard....thats why got plenty of spring rate to choose from as low as 3k all the way up till 12k-15k and adjustable damping version (click-click-click knob on the adjustable)




and regarding your front ARB 20mm is stock one or already installed bigger one?

if stock is 20mm...dont get the rear 20mm....u will having hard time with snap-oversteer in no time....like type earlier...increase in percentage...if front stock..then leave rear stock....if front increase 30% over stock...then rear too get the one with similar size increment....

DO NOT compare 1mm front increase and rear need increase 1mm too...thats not the correct method...


u need to drive in empty space/track to determine how the car behave low speed corner,high speed corner,sudden direction change,on-off throttle during mid corner,heavy braking during entry...then only got good baseline to try out different suspension setting.......


like iszo said...those ARB size upgrade is baseline only..there is a lot other factor to consider on how to rectify under/oversteer or how those things affect handling...etc etc......


if write more detail i think it will be too long.....

maybe this will help a lot:

http://www.rapid-racer.com/suspension-tuning.php

http://www.sae.org/students/presentations/suspension_tuning_and_development_by_steve_lyman.pdf

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

i just put term of soft-firm-hard is because...

1-stock confirm is soft...

2-sport most is soft...but some also got hard type (rate)

3-adjustable suspension not all hard....thats why got plenty of spring rate to choose from as low as 3k all the way up till 12k-15k and adjustable damping version (click-click-click knob on the adjustable)

and regarding your front ARB 20mm is stock one or already installed bigger one?

if stock is 20mm...dont get the rear 20mm....u will having hard time with snap-oversteer in no time....like type earlier...increase in percentage...if front stock..then leave rear stock....if front increase 30% over stock...then rear too get the one with similar size increment....

DO NOT compare 1mm front increase and rear need increase 1mm too...thats not the correct method...

No bro, stock front ARB I'm not quite sure how thick. But if install from Ultra Racing, front is 20mm.
So in order not to get oversteer too much, I think rear I will go for 16mm rear ARB instead of 20mm.

Like u said dont get 1mm for rear just cuz front increase 1mm.

Thanks a lot bro, have a rough idea on what to get now. Previously totally dunno the difference in thickness but knew it will affect the ride handling characteristics. Just not sure like how.

Guess I won't be needing the 20mm torsion beam from Ultra Racing...after installing 20mm front ARB and 16mm rear ARB.

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

No bro, stock front ARB I'm not quite sure how thick. But if install from Ultra Racing, front is 20mm.
So in order not to get oversteer too much, I think rear I will go for 16mm rear ARB instead of 20mm.

Like u said dont get 1mm for rear just cuz front increase 1mm.

Thanks a lot bro, have a rough idea on what to get now. Previously totally dunno the difference in thickness but knew it will affect the ride handling characteristics. Just not sure like how.

Guess I won't be needing the 20mm torsion beam from Ultra Racing...after installing 20mm front ARB and 16mm rear ARB.

yep..thats how it should be.....start with slight/modest upgrade first....so the car reaction will be more gradual and easier to adapt.....

 

[Izso]

Why does it take people yeaaaaaaaaaars to get the spelling of my 4-alphabet nickname right?

izso not iszo laaaaaaaaaa

Suprafan : honestly, for your car if it already has front and rear ARBs, you're better off spending the money on a better set of suspension. If your suspension is new (stock) then only consider the ARB upgrade. Old worn out suspension with new ARB is pointless la. And ARB does affect comfort to a certain extent, it's not 100% comfort. Torsion beam I'm not entirely sure, but in the past my Wira after the 16mm to 19mm rear ARB upgrade, the rear felt really tight and firm, but not bouncy. So yes it did affect comfort but not a lot. The same goes for the front 20mm to 22mm ARB upgrade. My ARBs were connected to the lower arms so it would affect the comfort to some degree. If they're connected to the absorbers - again that would be a different thing and probably have a different effect on comfort.

Don't overthink it la, your car is a road going car. Over stiffening it will be an expensive affair over the long run as you'll keep changing stuff because of all sorts of reasons. Uncomfortable la, complaints from family la, etc etc.

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

Why does it take people yeaaaaaaaaaars to get the spelling of my 4-alphabet nickname right?

izso not iszo laaaaaaaaaa

Suprafan : honestly, for your car if it already has front and rear ARBs, you're better off spending the money on a better set of suspension. If your suspension is new (stock) then only consider the ARB upgrade. Old worn out suspension with new ARB is pointless la. And ARB does affect comfort to a certain extent, it's not 100% comfort. Torsion beam I'm not entirely sure, but in the past my Wira after the 16mm to 19mm rear ARB upgrade, the rear felt really tight and firm, but not bouncy. So yes it did affect comfort but not a lot. The same goes for the front 20mm to 22mm ARB upgrade. My ARBs were connected to the lower arms so it would affect the comfort to some degree. If they're connected to the absorbers - again that would be a different thing and probably have a different effect on comfort.

Don't overthink it la, your car is a road going car. Over stiffening it will be an expensive affair over the long run as you'll keep changing stuff because of all sorts of reasons. Uncomfortable la, complaints from family la, etc etc.

Thanks bro. I think front mostly all cars come OEM right? but rear ARB memang tak ada. Even the Torsion Beam from Ultra Racing, I guess to strengthen the torsion beam further.

Ya I try not to do too much and remain it as one of the only comfort car at home for now. Fish adi a bone crushing machine But at the same time really dont like the body roll man...(with that body roll how to out corner your TEIN Abs STD la)

Sports absorber with OEM springs already tried. Comfort still there, but normal lifespan about 1 1/2 years - 2 years. Any better suggestion to minimize the body roll? Well, definitely I know cant have both comfort and handling at the same time. The only best way, still is the anti roll bar I think, If it is gonna affect comfort to a certain extent, maybe I would just go for a thinner one.

Like SAGA BLM handling is acceptable for me.

But wonder how Audi and BMW did it. (cant compare with Lexus comfort though) But the comfort level of the Audi and BMW is much preferable over the Lexus.

Conclusion: Wants to reduce body roll and at the same time not compromising too much on comfort.

Absorbers and Springs are stock.

 

[vr2turbo]

But wonder how Audi and BMW did it. (cant compare with Lexus comfort though) But the comfort level of the Audi and BMW is much preferable over the Lexus.

Conclusion: Wants to reduce body roll and at the same time not compromising too much on comfort.

Absorbers and Springs are stock.

Those are luxury cars.

Half performance/half comfort you get non......hhahhahahhaha

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

Those are luxury cars.

Half performance/half comfort you get non......hhahhahahhaha

Ya man...Even on their Dynamic (Sports mode) The suspension stiffer also doesn't feel uncomfortable. To me it absorbs the impact quite well and u dun feel it like OUCH! @%%$@%@

More like...Oops? Pot hole. Continue driving...

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

Why does it take people yeaaaaaaaaaars to get the spelling of my 4-alphabet nickname right?

izso not iszo laaaaaaaaaa

Suprafan : honestly, for your car if it already has front and rear ARBs, you're better off spending the money on a better set of suspension. If your suspension is new (stock) then only consider the ARB upgrade. Old worn out suspension with new ARB is pointless la. And ARB does affect comfort to a certain extent, it's not 100% comfort. Torsion beam I'm not entirely sure, but in the past my Wira after the 16mm to 19mm rear ARB upgrade, the rear felt really tight and firm, but not bouncy. So yes it did affect comfort but not a lot. The same goes for the front 20mm to 22mm ARB upgrade. My ARBs were connected to the lower arms so it would affect the comfort to some degree. If they're connected to the absorbers - again that would be a different thing and probably have a different effect on comfort.

Don't overthink it la, your car is a road going car. Over stiffening it will be an expensive affair over the long run as you'll keep changing stuff because of all sorts of reasons. Uncomfortable la, complaints from family la, etc etc.

oooops.... my ex uses iszo nick last time :sleep:

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

oooops.... my ex uses iszo nick last time :sleep:

Didnt know both of you were ex-couples... So u r the guy and Izso is the girl role...

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

Didnt know both of you were ex-couples... So u r the guy and Izso is the girl role...

not that izso la....

the X was iszo...hence the miss-spelt for izso

 

[vr2turbo]

not that izso la....

the X was iszo...hence the miss-spelt for izso

You two fight it out......hhahahahhaha

---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

Ya man...Even on their Dynamic (Sports mode) The suspension stiffer also doesn't feel uncomfortable. To me it absorbs the impact quite well and u dun feel it like OUCH! @%%$@%@

More like...Oops? Pot hole. Continue driving...

Both got pros and cons. Half/half to most is best but cannot have best of both worlds, means maximum comfort neither maximum performance....

 

[6UE5t]

...

But wonder how Audi and BMW did it. (cant compare with Lexus comfort though) But the comfort level of the Audi and BMW is much preferable over the Lexus.
....

BMW IMHO not that comfortable actually! Especially due to the RFT. Lexus on the other hand si more comfy but of course the handling not as sharp as BMW in general.

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

You two fight it out......hhahahahhaha

Both got pros and cons. Half/half to most is best but cannot have best of both worlds, means maximum comfort neither maximum performance....

Ya half half is good enough for me. Just like the Saga BLM. It actually handles better than my jetta. Body roll not as bad. And the comfort of course not as good as Jetta but is acceptable to me.

I'm trying to get the half/half will do. Not gonna go max performance. Max Comfort is killing the fun of driving.

Like my kelisa, I really hate the highway that leads to putrajaya/cyberjaya...high class place but highway not even at all...got 1 part totally bounce up...very uncomfortable. Stiff ride+Uneven road = hell...

BMW IMHO not that comfortable actually! Especially due to the RFT. Lexus on the other hand si more comfy but of course the handling not as sharp as BMW in general.

Ya, But is the half/half feel that I wanted. Handling+acceptable level of comfort. Lexus is indeed really the most comfortable one if compared to Audi and BMW. But I think Lexus only competitor in comfort and good sound insulation is the Infinity Q50 VS Lexus ES250.

 

[vr2turbo]

Ya half half is good enough for me. Just like the Saga BLM. It actually handles better than my jetta. Body roll not as bad. And the comfort of course not as good as Jetta but is acceptable to me.

I'm trying to get the half/half will do. Not gonna go max performance. Max Comfort is killing the fun of driving.

Like my kelisa, I really hate the highway that leads to putrajaya/cyberjaya...high class place but highway not even at all...got 1 part totally bounce up...very uncomfortable. Stiff ride+Uneven road = hell...

That is the thing, you have half/half then go touge not enough performance. Like bro. TR, daily drive but go track can take out exhaust.....

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

That is the thing, you have half/half then go touge not enough performance. Like bro. TR, daily drive but go track can take out exhaust.....

Cannot compare to joe...itu millionaire. I only kuli miao...
Later end up fed up, bring Kelisa go touge instead haha!

Nvm la, touge just for fun. Unless track day then diff case but also can be for fun only...if dont want take it too serious haha

 

[vr2turbo]

Cannot compare to joe...itu millionaire. I only kuli miao...
Later end up fed up, bring Kelisa go touge instead haha!

Nvm la, touge just for fun. Unless track day then diff case but also can be for fun only...if dont want take it too serious haha

If you can tahan then ok, but for some, when trailing or lose, then will go all out, then need full performance dy, half/half won't work......lol