Typical timing for street cars at Sepang SIC

[cqloh]

Late braking is, even in a 1200kg Saloon car, to my experience, helpful. As in the Class A MME race car, I gained .3 of a second from braking later into T1 alone. This based on comparing my data with my more experience teammate.

However, I do agree, controlling/balancing the car is more difficult should a driver brake too hard, too late. Thus ending up going too hot into the turn

During trail braking, the key would be to brake hard initially to scrub off speed, thus enabling the tires to work better going into the turn. Personally I only trail brake in a FF car, preferring to brake in a straight line when in a MR or a FR car

faisal,

i'm assuming you're in a DC5 running on Michelins... if thats the case then i would agree on your 'late braking' to a certain extent.

Michelins have the benefit of generating grip at a higher slip angle.. (which is why you pay them 550-600USD per piece).. the situation i stated above still applies.. however, because you're on a race tire (as compared to a road tire which we're referring to in this thread) the tire generates more grip as you turn the steering wheel into the corner..

the tire still has that 100% grip down the straight.. it still uses 80% to decelerate and has that 20% left to corner..
it just so happens that you have heaps of grip on that 20% compared to any other tire on track..

you also have the benefit of longitudinal weight transfer to help you turn..

so what you are describing on your dc5 is thus trail braking because you're braking into the corner not braking late and hard then turning..

 

[faisal]

cqloh,

You assumed wrong on 2 counts actually, about car & tires. I was driving a FD2R on Yokohama slicks ( I didn't notice we were reffering to road tires, my bad)

Actually I was talking about Trail Braking later, meaning I was braking later with the Trail Braking technique.

... :rolleyes: and here I was yapping away about "late braking" ... sorry, I'm just merely a driver, not a race car engineer. I leave the car set up to brainier folks that I know like T Djan Ley, Faidzil Alang or Rueben Wong

So , when you mean "Late Braking" do you mean literally "BRAKING VERY LATE", in a straight line?

 

[cqloh]

ah... you're one of the honda factory drivers...

well.. i'm afraid that i can't really help you much on that.. i've never had the privilege of working with yokohama tires... but i assume that if the compound is good enough for wtcc then it should be good enough for mme... its probably a matter of finding the right setup for the particular tire...

but in regards to the physics that happen during the conering phase, both in steady and dynamic state, djan would be the right person to explain... he's one of those drivers that knows engineering and one of those engineers thats knows how to drive... we lost to r3 last year in class B.. their car was awesome given the power, reliability to suite too..better luck this year i guess

my advice is that as a driver you need to understand the basics of the engineering involved.. it makes the engineers job alot easier.. feed back and precise feedback makes the absolute difference in racing.. so in other words you need to be on the same channel as the guy thats gonna set the car up to your liking. maybe pick up some tips from eddie... another awesome driver

i was under the impression that yokohama brought their tire engineers as well... didn;t they provide any input to the performance in 2008?

 

[faisal]

Off TOPIC aredi :rolleyes:

help?? :hmmmm: err I wasn't asking for any assistance actually. just correcting your asumption to what car i was driving with what tires. haha

Yeah, T Djan & Faidzil are my refference for all things relating to Vehicle Dynamics. 3.5 years in the same office was very enlightening from a driver's perspctive. R3's MME NEO had the benefit of Djan's & Faidzil's input, hence the results was well deserved.

Eddie has different driving preferrence to engineer/racer Rueben, who I partnered. Eddie preffered a more understeery set up as compared to Rueben who preffered a more loose rear. So Rueben's set up was more suited to my driving style. As u say, on the same channel.

If I may ask, you engineered plenty race cars? U seem to know plenty

 

[adian]

Ahh looks like I'm late for the party ;)

Finally some ZTH forummers that are serious about driving, rather than modding!!

FYI boys, driving experience counts for a lot when looking to improve laptimes. But it's more than that really, it's a fricking lifestyle. If the only motorsports you watch on TV is F1 or WRC, then you'll never improve that much. You've got to be so nuts about it that you watch anything: WTCC, lil Mini club races (not MINI, but Mini hah!), MotoGP, karts, rallycross.. whatever you can get your hands on.

F1 has so little overtaking and "dogfighting" that you cant really see what they're doing, nothing to compare against. What with the downforce and all, their lines and braking are completely different.

Motorcyle racing is actually very engaging, there's lots to learn. See how the riders look past the corners. How they adjust their lines when dogfighting. How smooth they need to be in transition from full accceleration to full braking to gradual power application out of the corners. It's not just point and squirt.

It's always best to watch the saloon car racing, that's more in line with our cars that we take to the track.

Some of the things that a lot of so-called "instructors" or 'sifus' here dont tell you, are some of the most basic, for example:

- Look ahead. You should be looking at the next corner entry as you exit the current corner so you can plan your braking and turning

- Turn your head. Turn your head to the direction that you look. Why? Here's an example: as you walk down the street, try turn your head to the left to check out that hot babe with the killer body and big boobs: you will find that you will naturally walk towards the left (towards her, with a smile haha). Dont kid yourself, it's not the gravitational pull of her mamaries, it's because it is completely natural that your body wants to go where you turn your head to look at. Time and again whenever I have professionally instructed drivers, this lil trick makes a huge improvement in their driving and laptimes.

- Turn-in just that lil bit later. Novices always turn-in into a corner too early. This screws up the corner entry, and so you end up adjusting mid-corner and at the exit, getting a bad line and not being able to power-on as soon as you should. Assuming we all have enough ability to corner a car at it's limits of adhesion, the biggest gains are made on the straights. Sounds simple, but what that translates to is that you need to have as high a corner exit speed as possible. To do that, when you feel like turning into the corner, resist the temptation just that fraction of a second more, and then turn. You can make up 0.3s - 0.5s per corner by this lil trick alone (depending on what corner lah).

- Be smooth. Being smooth doesnt just work on chicks, it also works at reducing laptimes. Be smooth in everything that you do, all the transitions from throttle to brake and throttle again, with the steering wheel, etc. If you are being ragged, fighting the wheel with squeeling tyres, it seems quick and looks dramatic, but in fact it's slower. At our level (Faisal and I) the challenge for us is no longer going fast, it's how do we go slower! With our skill, we tend to 'overdrive' the car, which leads to us losing time by not being smooth. Did you know that Isla Fisher, the star of "Confessions of a Shopaholic" once very famously said "guys that are smooth drivers are always good in bed". Makes sense.. I always receive bundles of praise *ahem* ;)

- Ingrain these habits into your daily driving. The worst habits from the road, when we bring them to the circuit, are exacerbated. The best racing drivers maintain their driving discipline on the road as we do on the track: 2 hands on the wheel at all times, no shuffling of the wheel, proper seating position, turn our heads into corners, turn-in late into corners, and being smooth. We're not racing or driving fast, but every moment is an opportunity to improve. If you are sloppy driving on the road, dont expect to be quick on the circuit.

I once wrote a simple booklet with Faidzil Alang on "Basic Performance and TrackDay Driving Skills" when I was in R3, and little did I know that it would eventually become the performance driving bible for HPC. Do look it up, there's some stuff there which everyone always thinks they already know, but never pay attention to it diligently and incorporate it into their daily and track driving.

Remember, it's the little things that will help you dip below 2m50, not just braking 20m later ;)

http://www.hpcevents.com/documents/R3_book.pdf

/adian

 

[faisal]

ah, another fellow R3 alumni joins in

Guys , I'd listen to Adian's pointers if I were interested in lowering my lap times. Can't go wrong when the major improvements comes from the driver.

 

[cqloh]

sorry boys... been busy prepping for MSS and ATCS..
this is the part where i get to say the drivers have it good... hahah.. they trash the car, break stuff and we stay up all night long to get it fixed.. sigh.. such is life...

faisal.. i've only built a hand full of cars.. so my experience is questionable if you're talking time and quantity of cars.. i've only spent a year in the malaysian motorsport scene.. it just so happens that i would have been in this line in another life... now it just a hobby.. or rather an obsession..

regarding the R3 Neo.. being a works team helps heaps as well.. considering the facilities and the data that they have on hand..

a couple of amateur formula cars super16, supersaloon, ATCS, SDB, MME that about sums up my experience.. thankfully we've had some good results over 2008..

adian.. thanks for posting up the booklet and comments (and like a true race driver with semi sexual references in it too)... traction circle is what i try to highlight to alot of drivers.. that all the weight of the car plus driver, fuel and liquids rests on 4 areas, each the size of your palm.. ie the tire contact patch...
so as a driver.. you need to understand that that is the only connection between you and the ground.. or in other words between you and that lower lap time..
alot of drivers, new and old rape their tires... so you're right when you say you need to go slower.. be patient.. wait for the tire to get warm and lubed up and up to pressure before you start thrashing.. its a lil like foreplay hahaha

 

[minivan]

There is some really good stuff coming out from the otai-otai, sifu-sifu here (faisal, adian, cqloh). :top: Stuff i really wanna try next time i'm at the track, especially the look ahead and turn your head ones...

For me, i've done 2.48 -2.50 in my old EF (VTEC, kayaba super special, AD07s) and 2.50 in an EP3 (Potenzas and stock suspension)... i'll be happy to get 2.45, as i'm not a hardcore racer, just a hobby...

 

[soulV]

24/5 will be a good day to apply all this sifu's tips...

Bump: 24/5 will be a good day to apply all this sifu's tips...

 

[jamesweh]

Hi Adian, this is James, Eddy Casmady's friend. Nice to see you in ZTH.
I have been a track junkie for the past 2 years. But honestly, I dont think I am improving. Still braking at 150 meter mark, plus just before the apex, I normally tap my brakes as I feel I am carrying too much speed into the corners which I am not.
My brakes start to go very soft just after 3 - 4 laps.
My timing, which is not represented by a Subie having 270 on wheels power is a dismal 2.50 seconds.
Maybe I am way too cautious, I like the point some one mentioned that you need to have foreplay before penetration.
On my 2nd lap on 9th May (private track session) on Turn 13, I lost my back end. Not so fun when you start seeing your car going towards the wall!
But God Willing! nothing of that happen.
Just sharing what an idiot I am as a track junkie!
By the way, we had a private session from 5 - 8pm on 09/05/2009
Now the best part was at 7.30pm where it just got a bit dark, ie MME or Le Mans 24 hours- style (dream on!)where you need your head lamps to pick up the apex. It is really dark out there! when you have the track to your self.
Scarry but wonderful, track temperatures drop from a high of 36 degrees to 30 degrees.
Subie felt so alive compared to at 36 degrees and even the brakes felt better.
Now if Sepang was located in Europe, I think all of us could do much better timing!

 

[tecque]

I got one problem in cornering of turn 5, and 6... how many of u using 3th gear or 4th gear... ??

When i entering turn 5, my speed already reach 4th gear, if i use 4th gear at below vtec point for turn 5,6, my car oversteer...feel like no grip at all...

IF i shift down to 3th gear in high rev in turn 5,6... no oversteer but i feel slow.....:slug:

MIne is b16, type r lsd, 4.4FD, ad07...

Any comment??

 

[minivan]

I got one problem in cornering of turn 5, and 6... how many of u using 3th gear or 4th gear... ??

When i entering turn 5, my speed already reach 4th gear, if i use 4th gear at below vtec point for turn 5,6, my car oversteer...feel like no grip at all...

IF i shift down to 3th gear in high rev in turn 5,6... no oversteer but i feel slow.....:slug:

MIne is b16, type r lsd, 4.4FD, ad07...

Any comment??

Hmmm.... (amatuer sharing his experience here kay).... but i use 4th gear. Be it in my old b16 EF or current ep3. In 4th gear, speed is abt ++130kmph there, and at the short straight (nicely after exiting turn 6) staying in 4th, VTEC engages for that short straight then dropping to 3rd for turn 7-8...

But dunno, some poeple use 3rd there. I'm comfortable with 4th... and i don't think i get too left behind there...

 

[deacon]

good gosh so much information... brain... can... not... processssssss *kablooie* ---> no emoticon for head explosions, hint, hint.

 

[adian]

Hi James.. I was there for the RaceCraft Academy night session with Rueben, we were dicking around with Adam's M3 CSL and a white 135i with DyMag carbon fiber wheels *slurp!* The next RCA session is July 18, I'll be there :)

Regarding your Scooby... you've got to be sure on the brakes, use them once to slow down, then dont touch them again so you give them time to cool off! And do look at pulling some hoses to cool em down on the straights.

With a 4WD, whatever happens, keep your foot in!! If the back steps out, accelerate! If it steps out on braking, let go of the brakes. This is the most basic method of regaining control. If you get to a point where you think you've totally lost it, then just keep you foot on the damn brakes and come to a stop (rather than trying to save it and then slamming into a wall).

2m50 in a road scooby sounds fine to me la. Remember, it's not always about laptimes, it's also about having fun and learning. Do try the head turning technique, as well as the late apex technique.

See on 18 July if you're there!

/adian

Bump: Tecque.. Minivan's answer is pretty good. Most importantly, what do YOU feel more comfortable with?? You have to be in control first, and know what you are doing and what you can handle, before you try to go faster!

Personally tho given that you have a higher FD, you should be able to take it in 4th. The common tactic for FWD saloon race cars at Turn 5 & 6 is, as you crest the hill and head down to T5, shift into a higher gear (4th gear in your case), and immediately just maintain the throttle. Dont accelerate anymore or reduce speed any less as you turn into Turn5. Hold the throttle, and get the lining right. Ideally, 2/3s of the way through T5 your left front will brush the inner kerb and you hug this kerb taking a late apex.

As T6 approaches, lift off gently as you turn the wheel to the right to turn the car, then immediately get back on the throttle and again maintain. With this technique, when you lift off and turn, the rear will feel light and want to oversteer, but as you immediately get back on the throttle the oversteer will stop and your car nicely set for T6.

Take a late apex for T6 too, and only AFTER you pass the apex do you gradually feed in the power till you are flooring the accelerator as you brush the exit kerb.

With the amount of power you're probably carrying through your front wheels, too much power too early will induce understeer. Feel is very very important here. :)

/adian

 

[minivan]

Again, superbly explained by adian!! :top:

Yeah, what i've learnt there is (as explained by adian) is that the transition from 5 into 6 is very important. Be weary of the weight transfer that happens and also the other things that happen to your car when you lift of the throttle there. Hence, being smooth and gentle is key here. Throttle control is vital here. Overcook it in the transition and your induce too much understeer, slowing you down and spoiling your exit line out of turn 6... Well actually, overcooking the throttle in 5 or 6 will get you understeering (spoiling speed and line).... hence another reason why using 4th gear is probaly the better choice...

Adian, care to explain how the LSD on a car can help here (in 5 n 6)?? I'm not too sure, but i have a feeling it helps quite a bit...