EG clubs/owner etc

[peterj]

Answer is yes, you require a map sensor upgrade if you want the ECU to read the boost tables in the hondata ECU map.

With hondata, you will be replacing the OEM MAP sensor. Not sure about E-manage. Never seen an turbo honda car with emanage before, so dunno how the system works. They intercept the map sensor input then return atmospheric reading to stock ECU maybe? Because I know if honda ecu getting map sensor reading exceeding 1004mbar, the check light will come on. Or maybe not, as the 3-4bar Map sensor still outputs 5V maximum. *is thinking while typing this, lol*. I think the second one, but like I said, haven't seen a turbo honda with emanage (as in, haven't had opportunity to look at how the mapping for emanage works for turboed cars)

With hondata, you get extra boost columns for boost, so you have quite fine control over the injectors and ignition outside boost.

If you run a boost cheat, then no. Because you will trick the ECU into not seeing boost. This is usually the old cheaper method of turboing using fuel regulator adjustment

Back to the Map sensor thing.
You can run any map sensor that you know the specs of.

Means at 5V = how much bar Psi/InHg/Bar. You can calibrate easily if you have a good vac/boost meter. For ultimate accuracy, try get a readout from Bosch FSA740 diagnostic station. Some Shell stations have it. One in Kota Bharu, Kelantan does. I also know a station in Penang and KL that has it too, but not sure where, because I met them during the Bosch FSA training seminar.

If you know the specs of that MAP sensor, you can use it. If cannot bolt on TB, you can run a vac line to the intake and reference from there. Stock intake, run a T fitting on the regulator or something. If aftermarket intake, usually got extra vac port you can use.

If want bolt on to TB, choices are quite a lot, hondata only provides settings for neutronics, aem, motec and honda/hondata MAP sensors. But like mentioned earlier, if you know the specs, you can put any map sensor in provided it fits.

---------- Post added 07-30-2012 at 12:01 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was 07-29-2012 at 11:58 PM ----------



Well obviously your igniter is gone case already. If you upgrade to MSD ignition box, you 'PROBABLY' still have to replace your current igniter, depending on whether it is failing to provide a good signal to the coil/ignition box. The thing with using bigger coils is that it draws more power from the ignitor. And since your previous setup the coil already acted up, I'm thinking it's probably KO'ed.

Good luck with MSD billet distributor. I heard of a guy trying it out. Perhaps it was a defect, but the thing jammed. But since it was only one guy, who knows for sure the reliability?

---------- Post added at 12:20 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 12:01 AM ----------



Lol, sorry no facebook. Even ZTH also I visit when I free only.
Anyway, replied.

If you do change the map sensor, and run hondata, I can help you with how to wire it in and calibrate.

What did top fuel recommend?

bitch please, in conclusion,f con sucks, blown the 2nd set of oem piston even with 2mm thick gasket, the setting on f con might been alternated already.. damn....now open up engine for the 3rd time.....

this will be final try.....fed up already..this time either win or forever lose

1.) ordered wiseco 9.0:1 forged piston with eagle rod,need wait 1-2weeks to be arrived

2.) will getting a set of king bearing soon

3.)arp head studs(this studs just pnp or need machine the ori stud holes on the block??)

4.)hondata S300(fucking f con will be forever stay out from my car)

for 1 and 4, wiseco website said that, in order to get the compression rating, must use at least 0.04" thick headgasket, or equal to 1mm... but mine now only have oem gasket (lot of ppl said it is 0.5-0.7mm) and custom 2mm(still not exactly know the reliability since not yet drag full of the performance of the engine), which one should i choose? and there is one manufacturer called OMNI selling higher pressure map sensor that is pnp to our oem manifold and wires, can i use them without rewiring and coupe with hondata??

and will hondata s200 good enough already? cause one fren selling s200 for 1100 and s300 for 1800....and king bearing good enough to be used? sifu pls reply

 

[shiroitenshi]

bitch please, in conclusion,f con sucks, blown the 2nd set of oem piston even with 2mm thick gasket, the setting on f con might been alternated already.. damn....now open up engine for the 3rd time.....

this will be final try.....fed up already..this time either win or forever lose

1.) ordered wiseco 9.0:1 forged piston with eagle rod,need wait 1-2weeks to be arrived

2.) will getting a set of king bearing soon

3.)arp head studs(this studs just pnp or need machine the ori stud holes on the block??)

4.)hondata S300(fucking f con will be forever stay out from my car)

for 1 and 4, wiseco website said that, in order to get the compression rating, must use at least 0.04" thick headgasket, or equal to 1mm... but mine now only have oem gasket (lot of ppl said it is 0.5-0.7mm) and custom 2mm(still not exactly know the reliability since not yet drag full of the performance of the engine), which one should i choose? and there is one manufacturer called OMNI selling higher pressure map sensor that is pnp to our oem manifold and wires, can i use them without rewiring and coupe with hondata??

and will hondata s200 good enough already? cause one fren selling s200 for 1100 and s300 for 1800....and king bearing good enough to be used? sifu pls reply

Hondata s200 outdated already. Better not. The price difference also too low to consider it a 'deal'.

I prefer ori honda bearing clearanced to fit. No experience with others. Got one car with ACL I know, and still running strong, but I haven't used it, so cannot give good input on how it is.

Got the link to the omni MAP sensor? Make sure you contact them before buying and ask for the map sensor specs and how to calibrate to hondata s300. It's a safeguard in case you have no resources/tools to calibrate it with. If they give answer, it will be really easy later on. Should be no issues as the maximum reading will always be 5V, but I haven't tried that many map sensor to be 100% sure that all MAP sensors work that way.

If omni power, should be easy, I have dealt with them before, the guy was pretty helpful to me when I contacted them about their discontinued monotube suspension.

The F-Con is not to blame IMO, it's the settings inside. Who knows what the setup was supposed to be? but with hondata, you still need to upgrade/fix up the ignition anyways.

Also, hondata only drives low impendance injectors. So better check your injector specs before going hondata. You might need to run a resistor box for the injectors.

And make sure your tuner knows how to tune hondata, I can help a bit on some of the obscure settings like boost compensation by gear and etc, and how to implement a two step.

About the compression rating of the wiseco pistons, if they're at 9.0, I wouldn't worry to much. even with the OEM gaskets and stuff, I don't think you'd be touching 10+CR unless you milled the head and deck aggresively, and even if you did, you can retard the timing to suit at the expense of extra heat.

If you're the aggresive type, don't run the clearances for p2w (piston2wall) or ring gaps too tight. Run a bit looser (not too much) for lastability. The wiseco spec sheet will mention clearances for the ring gaps and p2w. You can run a little larger than their spec, depending on how you drive your car. I run the wiseco's spec on my b20v, but my car is a daily driver, but when I first researched, honda fellas in US say to run the clearance a bit larger than recommended if driven hard.

But I ran the wiseco specs anyway. When I first drove the car after the engine install, the revs was so bloody heavy lol. The engine revs dropped really fast when I released the throttle. After the break in, took about 1000+kms for it to feel 'loose', then everything okay. I guess the honda fellas in US were right. Should just run it a bit looser than wiseco's recommendation.

I will assume your engine builder will bore and hone out the block, and do the required steps when install pistons, since that one is a looong story.

After you get hondata, load up a basemap and start it up, then street tune the car immediately during the break-in period. If you simply run it rich, you'll have ring sealing issues later due to 'bore wash'. Since during break in we don't rev the engine past 4-5K, you can just street tune until that point. At that stage, don't worry about ignition settings yet, just get a good steady afr out, with 13.5-14.5AFR out of boost, and about 12.5 in boost. EGT readings should be at 800-900 throughout. If not, increase fuelling in the boost tables until you get that number. but if at below 1000 and a bit over 900, I wouldn't worry too much, still normal for boosted EGTs. If you google, then you'll find these numbers are pretty high, but we're in Malaysia lol. If you can get sub 800 at 14.5 AFR, it just means the ignition settings are good, but at this stage, we don't want to bother about this yet, this is just to run-in the engine and get the piston rings to seal properly.

ARP head studs is just OEM replacement. Don't overtighten them. Use the allen key to tighten the studs until finger tight. These are not OEM bolts, we are only using the stud's threads and stretch to hold the head to the block.

BTW, you sure your crank is okay? Usually having a piston with a hole will also mean that the crank is not straight anymore. Since you're replacing the bearings, I guess you must have suffered a lot of knocking that killed the bearings.

Make sure your tuner has a knock monitor. That's the only way you can detect knock in boost as the noise level will be too loud to use normal hearing.

Hmm.. that's all I can think of at the moment.

 

[peterj]

Hondata s200 outdated already. Better not. The price difference also too low to consider it a 'deal'.

I prefer ori honda bearing clearanced to fit. No experience with others. Got one car with ACL I know, and still running strong, but I haven't used it, so cannot give good input on how it is.

Got the link to the omni MAP sensor? Make sure you contact them before buying and ask for the map sensor specs and how to calibrate to hondata s300. It's a safeguard in case you have no resources/tools to calibrate it with. If they give answer, it will be really easy later on. Should be no issues as the maximum reading will always be 5V, but I haven't tried that many map sensor to be 100% sure that all MAP sensors work that way.

If omni power, should be easy, I have dealt with them before, the guy was pretty helpful to me when I contacted them about their discontinued monotube suspension.

The F-Con is not to blame IMO, it's the settings inside. Who knows what the setup was supposed to be? but with hondata, you still need to upgrade/fix up the ignition anyways.

Also, hondata only drives low impendance injectors. So better check your injector specs before going hondata. You might need to run a resistor box for the injectors.

And make sure your tuner knows how to tune hondata, I can help a bit on some of the obscure settings like boost compensation by gear and etc, and how to implement a two step.

About the compression rating of the wiseco pistons, if they're at 9.0, I wouldn't worry to much. even with the OEM gaskets and stuff, I don't think you'd be touching 10+CR unless you milled the head and deck aggresively, and even if you did, you can retard the timing to suit at the expense of extra heat.

If you're the aggresive type, don't run the clearances for p2w (piston2wall) or ring gaps too tight. Run a bit looser (not too much) for lastability. The wiseco spec sheet will mention clearances for the ring gaps and p2w. You can run a little larger than their spec, depending on how you drive your car. I run the wiseco's spec on my b20v, but my car is a daily driver, but when I first researched, honda fellas in US say to run the clearance a bit larger than recommended if driven hard.

But I ran the wiseco specs anyway. When I first drove the car after the engine install, the revs was so bloody heavy lol. The engine revs dropped really fast when I released the throttle. After the break in, took about 1000+kms for it to feel 'loose', then everything okay. I guess the honda fellas in US were right. Should just run it a bit looser than wiseco's recommendation.

I will assume your engine builder will bore and hone out the block, and do the required steps when install pistons, since that one is a looong story.

After you get hondata, load up a basemap and start it up, then street tune the car immediately during the break-in period. If you simply run it rich, you'll have ring sealing issues later due to 'bore wash'. Since during break in we don't rev the engine past 4-5K, you can just street tune until that point. At that stage, don't worry about ignition settings yet, just get a good steady afr out, with 13.5-14.5AFR out of boost, and about 12.5 in boost. EGT readings should be at 800-900 throughout. If not, increase fuelling in the boost tables until you get that number. but if at below 1000 and a bit over 900, I wouldn't worry too much, still normal for boosted EGTs. If you google, then you'll find these numbers are pretty high, but we're in Malaysia lol. If you can get sub 800 at 14.5 AFR, it just means the ignition settings are good, but at this stage, we don't want to bother about this yet, this is just to run-in the engine and get the piston rings to seal properly.

ARP head studs is just OEM replacement. Don't overtighten them. Use the allen key to tighten the studs until finger tight. These are not OEM bolts, we are only using the stud's threads and stretch to hold the head to the block.

BTW, you sure your crank is okay? Usually having a piston with a hole will also mean that the crank is not straight anymore. Since you're replacing the bearings, I guess you must have suffered a lot of knocking that killed the bearings.

Make sure your tuner has a knock monitor. That's the only way you can detect knock in boost as the noise level will be too loud to use normal hearing.

Hmm.. that's all I can think of at the moment.

bearing and crank all ok, just the same problem happened, the ring groove cracked and ring putus maybe....smoke from valve cover and breather.....i got myself a set of evo4 510cc low impedance,do i still need the resistor pack?(i got the evo resistor pack with me also..) ....the bearing and head stud changed will be an upgrades for high boost and reliability .....

the map sensor link is here Omni Power USA, Inc - Still Going

---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

the omni map sensor can just pnp with the tuning setting on hondata or must get hondata map sensor?

 

[shiroitenshi]

bearing and crank all ok, just the same problem happened, the ring groove cracked and ring putus maybe....smoke from valve cover and breather.....i got myself a set of evo4 510cc low impedance,do i still need the resistor pack?(i got the evo resistor pack with me also..) ....the bearing and head stud changed will be an upgrades for high boost and reliability .....

the map sensor link is here Omni Power USA, Inc - Still Going

---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

the omni map sensor can just pnp with the tuning setting on hondata or must get hondata map sensor?

Hondata can set the voltage and pressure value, so can calibrate to any MAP sensor that runs 5 volts, just need the specs.

And when you mentioned the low ohm on yours, I noticed I got it reversed. Hondata runs high impendance injectors, not low impendance, so you need to wire in a resistor box. I am not sure how much the resistor values of the evo box, I only know of the honda resistor box's one. So you definitely need to run a resistor box, but I am not sure which one will be good, you need to research that one. I just hope that the resistor box you choose has enough resistance to not burn out the injector drivers on the hondata ECUs. But at low duty cycles, usually this doesn't happen. It only happens when the injectors are going up to max duty.

For me, I ran the resistor box for a while with H22 injectors, but I swapped to a high impendance injector before I got it tuned to full rpm range and ditched the resistor box. And since injectors not that expensive compared to halfcut injectors anyway, better buy new. No need worry about injector jamming or flow not good or whatever.

 

[peterj]

bro, in lay's man terms... can u explain on the clearance stuff? cause i still not understand... is that u mean even i bought 81mm piston, it will be a tight fit, if daily drive better get the block bored bigger a bit?

 

[shiroitenshi]

bro, in lay's man terms... can u explain on the clearance stuff? cause i still not understand... is that u mean even i bought 81mm piston, it will be a tight fit, if daily drive better get the block bored bigger a bit?

In a way, yes, even if you buy a forged 81mm piston, you can't put them in directly. You have to rebore the block to the 81mm forged piston specs. Also have to rehone (that crosshatching pattern you see on new blocks), because you want to have ring seal later on. If you don't, the car will start consuming oil after a while (in my old car, it took just under a year, when I tried replacing the rings without a bore hone.)

First, why we need to check piston to wall (p2w) clearance

Forged pistons expand faster than standard piston. Something to do with silicon content.
This one is old story, because now forged pistons also have higher silicon content, so can run tighter clearance, but not so much that it is the same as stock aluminium pistons honda has, so when using forged piston, STILL have to rebore just a bit bigger than stock piston, even if you're using 81mm.

Each piston also slightly different, so that's why when you bore, the pistons will be marked for each cylinder. you can't simply swap them around and expect no problems at high rpm. This one, you have to trust the machine shop, if they mess it up, you'll never get a nice smooth engine, that doesn't consume engine oil, etc.

Also remember to hone, that is the key to your piston ring seal and your compression. If you don't do it, you'll never get a good ring seal during engine-break in.

Second, we have the ring gap clearance.

Normally for daily drive cars that don't hold high rpm for long time, we run tighter ring gaps. (0.3-0.6mm ring gap, depending on bore size) I run mine at 0.35-0.45mm because it's a daily drive B20v (I ran big bore, so my clearance is good for a boosted engine with 81mm pistons, but considered quite tight for 85mm.

If for performance usage should go a little bigger, exactly how much bigger? Usually got the spec sheet on the pistons. Add about 0.05 or 0.1mm if you/your mechanic think the clearance is too low. They spec it quite tight sometimes. This prevents your rings from seizing when you stress your engine.

Add too much? Your engine will consume more engine oil. But usually if high performance, a bit of oil burning is just expected. But not so much until can get white smoke out the exhaust.

 

[peterj]

waaaa..headache.... so nid rebore block also,rebore how much is expected? ? what is hone?

 

[mADmAN]

something i posted about forged pistons awhile ago

theres basically 3 types of pistons generally used for engines..

1/ cast iron
cast iron are basically stock pistons...the good thing about them is that they dont expand much when heated up and they take very little time to heat up. this allows for tighter piston to wall clearance which basically eliminates piston to wall slap. they are also the weakest type of the 3.

2/ forged with low silicone content using 2618 aluminium
Example of the brand is Wiseco. this type is the strongest of all....the downside is that both types of forged pistons will expand MORE than cast iron pistons so will require greater piston to wall clearance. another downside is that they take longer to heatup and expand. so during cold starts, piston to wall slap is pretty common...at least til the pistons warm up. wall slaps can scratch ur sleeve.

3/ forged with high silicone content using 4032 aluminum
Supertec and CP uses these... a common trait of forged pistons is that they expand MORE than cast iron pistons so will require MORE piston to wall clearance. the bad thing is, they take longer to heat up and expand.. so during cold starts, piston to wall slap is common. again, wall slaps can scratch ur sleeve. this type of piston however, expands less than the one above. so u can get tighter piston to wall clearance and minimize wall slap. they are also not as strong as the one above but still significantly stronger than cast iron pistons.



myself, i went with supertec 11.5 pistons for my rebuild. my mechanic wanted me to use wiseco, i refused as i didnt wanna take the chance of slapping.. though i know hes built a number of daily driven engines with wiseco with no issues...no slapping etc. but still i kiasu...so i dun wan

ive also seen a picture on hondatech of a wiseco piston suffering severe slapping... that the W on the side of the piston actually wore off and were badly scratched.

up to u which one u wanna use. talk to ur mechanic if need be. im not sure if u get 84mm forged do u still need to bore a little for the wall clearance or not..

 

[shiroitenshi]

The coating on the wisecos is a break in coating. It is supposed to wear off...
Wiseco recommends really tight p2w clearance. Tighter than other forged pistons, so much so that even the machine shop sent message to confirm if I really want it that tight. I decided to run it tight, and after install engine, everyone was saying that the engine was heavy, and should have ran it loose. After break in though, the engine was smooth. no piston slap even when started in the morning.

Some don't follow, and thus you get that issue where wiseco pistons are blamed for improper installation. It's no coincidence why wisecos still being used by people and racers regardless of the noise they made about it.

The scratching of piston skirts is can also be due to detonation sometimes , but that's another story for another day.

@peterj. Google Images. use it. looking is easier than explaining. "bore hone" and "piston to wall clearance".

 

[peterj]

i wonder, i saw my cylinder wall, it still very smooth, seriously(this engine when i bought, it run only 98000km and now bout 102xxx), it just like out from the factory, i still can see this kind of thing Google Image Result for http://www.hax.se/rebuild-2002/bore-honing-l.jpeg

do i still need honing it smooth? and the p2w clearance, just follow the wiseco recommendation ok right? tight also ok rite? after hearing this things i am bit regret already order the piston still a forged piston also got cons... damn.... better use eagle rod,bore the pin size 1mm bigger then use supercharge piston fro 4AGZE..

thank you for the advices...

---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------

sorry, should be bore the 20mm pin 4agze piston to 21mm

---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------

btw, where to get omni power map sensor in malaysia?? any idea?

 

[mysayasan]

btw, where to get omni power map sensor in malaysia?? any idea?

I can get it for you from US.. Us price + shipment + rm50 service charge from me.

 

[racedemon22]

a newbie question, can dc2r absorber plug and play to honda eg9 without any modification cause my adjustable are leaking and want to send it for service.... thanks guys

 

[shiroitenshi]

a newbie question, can dc2r absorber plug and play to honda eg9 without any modification cause my adjustable are leaking and want to send it for service.... thanks guys

Yes, provided it's not the fork type like singapore/US. If japanese eyelet type, definitely plug and play.

---------- Post added at 02:10 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 01:57 AM ----------

i wonder, i saw my cylinder wall, it still very smooth, seriously(this engine when i bought, it run only 98000km and now bout 102xxx), it just like out from the factory, i still can see this kind of thing Google Image Result for http://www.hax.se/rebuild-2002/bore-honing-l.jpeg

do i still need honing it smooth? and the p2w clearance, just follow the wiseco recommendation ok right? tight also ok rite? after hearing this things i am bit regret already order the piston still a forged piston also got cons... damn.... better use eagle rod,bore the pin size 1mm bigger then use supercharge piston fro 4AGZE..

thank you for the advices...

---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------

sorry, should be bore the 20mm pin 4agze piston to 21mm

---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------

btw, where to get omni power map sensor in malaysia?? any idea?

Pentagon used to carry Omnipower products, not no more I think.
Anyway, if you still got that hone marks, should check for clearance for new piston. I think that if you swap pistons you will need to rebore and hone, because the pistons all not exactly perfect copy of each other, so have to match the bore to each piston.

If your block still have that mark, means your engine not run in fully yet after last rebuild, or your rings weren't sealing properly. If you 'run in' properly, by the time you take it out, it will be smooth like mirror.

That's also why we do 'run in', so to smooth the bore and get the piston rings to seal. Honing is to get the rings and bore wall to fit each other 100%. It's a manufacturing method for ensuring exact tolerances. Which is also why it's important to get a street tune at least to run in the engine, or else engine will be too rich, and your rings will never seal properly due to carbon buildup and bore wash.

I find that if for normal car, better run in about 1000-2000kms. It depends on how smooth you feel the engine is. Since wiseco recommendation is tight, I think better do around 2000km for run in (I do mine like that), means you don't rev past 5k rpm. Usually I do 3000rpm max, then after 500km, I increase to 4k, then every 500km increase rev limit 1000rpm, then after 2000km, I change oil. During run in, better get magnetic drain plug for oil sump. There will be a lot of metal sediments from the rings wearing out the hone at this stage.

The run in method it's not a rule, it's just how I run in my engine. You can read online and find many methods of people running in engines. Up to you to follow whichever that suits you.

 

[peterj]

saliva dipping

 

[shiroitenshi]

saliva dipping

New type is red board. the picture is v1.

Only extra is online authentication, password lock, 6 analog and 6 digital inputs. I'm still on V1 atm. Only 2 analog inputs, but still usable, serial is very nice in cantonese, 1-6-4, lol.

No problem using the V1, actually without needing the online authentication, the V1 is actually easier to use. no need find internet connection first lol.

Still, hope you can get your car back up and running and in boost soon. Not to soon to skip the break in period, I hope.