B16b/B18c R cam which 1 better?

shiroitenshi

3,000 RPM
Senior Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,676
170
1,663
Yes.. the aftermarket cam gears are for you to compensate for the key wear on the crank and the camshaft. But I can confirm the DC2 cams work without the aftermarket pulleys.

Anyway, if you have the aftermarket pulley, how are you going to set the cams? The stock cam specifications are not available (at least none that I believe to be the exact same as the cams on hand), and to do it alternatively would require a lot of work (manually measuring duration and lift, or claying for clearance check, which I should get around to, sometime.)

The stock cam pulley will work, they might be a bit retarded/or advanced.. but they will work.
 

harpoon

500 RPM
Senior Member
Jan 9, 2005
607
7
3,018
shah alam n amp
Hey, finally someone into the tech aspect as well.

I think if you read through all that, you have understand it roughly like me.
The thing about cams are that they can help control the static compression ratio.

Remember the intake valve closing at XX degrees ATDC?

Our static compression test gives us compression values that are larger, because they consider the intake and exhaust valves are closed during the compression stroke.

In real life, this is not the case, and as you notice, like 20 degrees ATDC the intake valve closes, your 11:1 compression has been reduced by 20degs/180deg = 11.1%, which means the 11comp - 11.1% = (11 - 1.221) = 9.779.

However, the actual volume of air going in the engine is dependent on the flow rate/speed which at the moment, is anyone's guess. Futhermore, as one of your link noted, the speed which the valves open (the lobe ramp angle) determines this also. So in other words, would 9.779 comp ratio cause knocking? it's probably dependent on engine speed, and of course the ignition timing I think, but well... that's anyone's guess, as most people don't keep track of why their engine makes power, or why it doesn't.

So if you ask whether plonking in B16B cams in a B18CR would give different performance, I think it may or may not, and there's no definite answer because you can play with the actual opening and closing timing (within tolerances, before vavle meets valve on overlap, which is why the cam spec specifices the lobe seperation angle or sometimes the mid lobe angle, at the point where there is maximum clearance).

You can tweak it a little by 2-4 degs, I think, depending on how aggressive the cams are.

A high ramp rate usually gives better performance for high comp engines, I'm sure you noticed it when you look at toda, spoon, etc, performance cams where the cam lobes are nowhere teardrop shaped like stock cams. It gives higher rocker arm wear (at the cam follower part), so that's why they don't make it too aggressive, just slightly more than stock, and which is also why they want valvesprings that are hard so that the valves won't float.

One set of cams I saw get around this by making the lift higher. like really high.. either 13.9 or 14mm of lift.

But still, much to learn about cams.

The summary of what I've learned so far comes to the following. (this is my opinion, they could be wrong, so consider that I'm just sharing what I'm thinking.

1) high rpm power need high compression,
2)high compression needs high duration cams to manage the compression at low and mid rpm.

As to exactly why.. hmm.. that one I'm not sure at all.

I need to study the how the air is going in the engine at low/mid/rpm and see how they differ to find out.

Currently, I know how to go about it, by using the Auxbox, but I need to take out the IAT and measure it at 3 different temps for calibration purposes,
The Map sensor too, and therein the problem lies. I don't have time at the moment to do so.
you did talk about the dynamic compression, does it increase the actual compression or reduces it?? because the air that goes into the combustion chamber have to go through the intake manifold, and the ecu monitors this vacuum pressure inside the manifold.... via few small ducts.

so does the manifold help to increase the air pressure and obviously the flow? and how does that affect the dynamic compression

latest invention that i saw, put it that manifold don't need to have butterfly flap anymore, it uses individual flap just before exiting manifold towards the valve, does that improve anything?? it's like using individual throttle for every combustion chamber right???

then only we come to the cams part.....if i'm not wrong, most aftermarket cam are designed to be much wilder than stock (if the same why change??), obviously it will have sharper teardrop design, to increase the valve lift for more opening and longer opening duration.... perhaps they don't make it too wild to avoid valve hitting piston phenomenon but it will still be more than stock.... how much, it depends on the manufacturer research.... so the other thing that we can adjust would be ignition advance or retard and cam angle adjustment.

from your summary

((The summary of what I've learned so far comes to the following. (this is my opinion, they could be wrong, so consider that I'm just sharing what I'm thinking.

1) high rpm power need high compression,
2)high compression needs high duration cams to manage the compression at low and mid rpm.))


obviously high rpm power need high comp, or else it won't sustain the rpm and won't be able to generate enough power

on the second one, the low cam on vtec engine manages all this, but all the talk about this only on vtec cam, how about the low cam? don't anybody wants to study that too?
 

shiroitenshi

3,000 RPM
Senior Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,676
170
1,663
you did talk about the dynamic compression, does it increase the actual compression or reduces it?? because the air that goes into the combustion chamber have to go through the intake manifold, and the ecu monitors this vacuum pressure inside the manifold.... via few small ducts.
Well.. definitely reduces static compression, that one I'm positive.

The actual volume of air is theoretically dependent on how well the engine flows (the ports, the manifold, exhaust, etc.. something like, if exhaust easy to get out, then intake will be better.) But until I get around to the IAT and manifold pressure measurements, and how they can be used to estimate airflow.. this one still my THEORY only..

so does the manifold help to increase the air pressure and obviously the flow? and how does that affect the dynamic compression
It doesn't affect dynamic compression. The reason it's called dynamic compression is because it changes as valve closing timing changes during compression stroke.
The manifold in theory doesn't really change pressure. At full throttle opening for NA engines, it will read atmospheric pressure, which is about 14.xpsi at sea level, less when at higher than sea level (there's the ram air effect, but doesn't seem to be a big of an effect for street car speeds). For some gauges they will put this as zero vacuum. Boosted, will be different, as your manifold pressure will see more than atmospheric pressure.

What the intake manifold does is increase the volume capacity. I think this is for part throttle purposes, but it's a guess on my part.

Part throttle??.. Hmmm.. this one, I don't know yet.. I'm still on the stock intake manifold, so I'm logging all the stuff I can for the stock stuff, so when I swap, I have a baseline to compare to.

latest invention that i saw, put it that manifold don't need to have butterfly flap anymore, it uses individual flap just before exiting manifold towards the valve, does that improve anything?? it's like using individual throttle for every combustion chamber right???
I haven't seen this new invention, but it does sound like a slide carb though. (O_o)

then only we come to the cams part.....if i'm not wrong, most aftermarket cam are designed to be much wilder than stock (if the same why change??), obviously it will have sharper teardrop design, to increase the valve lift for more opening and longer opening duration....
Sharper teardrop design? Maybe it does seem that way to you, but for me, it looks nothing like the original teardrop design of stock cams. they are usually fatter, so don't look much like teardrop anymore. They are shaped like that so that they will spend more time at peak lift.

The teardrop shape is something that is a compromise to ensure the valvetrain works for a long long while, IMO.

Perhaps they don't make it too wild to avoid valve hitting piston phenomenon but it will still be more than stock.... how much, it depends on the manufacturer research.... so the other thing that we can adjust would be ignition advance or retard and cam angle adjustment.
Yup, agree with this.

obviously high rpm power need high comp, or else it won't sustain the rpm and won't be able to generate enough power
Yes, that is the conclusion so far, but why?

For me, sustaining the RPM is the work of the valvesprings so that valvefloat doesn't happen to the extreme..

The generating enough power part is understood, but exactly 'how' is the question.

Studying cams, it seems like the big durations actually makes high rpm compression a lot less than the static. But I understand the big duration needed part, because at high rpms, the valves would close too fast for proper filling of the engine cyclinders.

So the idea seems to be like yours, that high compression makes power.. The question is how, which I'm still researching now.


on the second one, the low cam on vtec engine manages all this, but all the talk about this only on vtec cam, how about the low cam? don't anybody wants to study that too?
Actually there was a discussion a while back on this. in a "1.8L with 200whp" thread.

Seems like for high compression engines, big duration primary/secondary lobes (not the VTEC) are needed to enable the engine to run higher ignition timing without knock at low/mid rpms.
 
Last edited:

harpoon

500 RPM
Senior Member
Jan 9, 2005
607
7
3,018
shah alam n amp
Part throttle??.. Hmmm.. this one, I don't know yet.. I'm still on the stock intake manifold, so I'm logging all the stuff I can for the stock stuff, so when I swap, I have a baseline to compare to.

I haven't seen this new invention, but it does sound like a slide carb though. (O_o)

Studying cams, it seems like the big durations actually makes high rpm compression a lot less than the static. But I understand the big duration needed part, because at high rpms, the valves would close too fast for proper filling of the engine cyclinders.

So the idea seems to be like yours, that high compression makes power.. The question is how, which I'm still researching now.
about the throttle valve... you can have some reading here
BMW World - Technology

about the higher compression makes power, to me i guess it's because of the higher compression pressure, makes the combustion more powerful (ie higher pressure equal to bigger fire equals to higher push equals to piston move downward faster equal to extra enrgy produced)

make sense right??

besides higher compression, there is also need to ensure the intake could suck in more air and fuel.... job of the camshaft.

higher air pressure entering.... job of the intake manifold

better breathing through exhaust pulsing... job of the exhaust system

nice discussion here bro
 

shiroitenshi

3,000 RPM
Senior Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,676
170
1,663
about the throttle valve... you can have some reading here
BMW World - Technology

about the higher compression makes power, to me i guess it's because of the higher compression pressure, makes the combustion more powerful (ie higher pressure equal to bigger fire equals to higher push equals to piston move downward faster equal to extra enrgy produced)

make sense right??

besides higher compression, there is also need to ensure the intake could suck in more air and fuel.... job of the camshaft.

higher air pressure entering.... job of the intake manifold

better breathing through exhaust pulsing... job of the exhaust system

nice discussion here bro
Yeah.. it does make sense, however, there is also concern of how these high compression affect burn rates, as a high compression engine with retarded timings also doesn't produce much power. It's not as straightforward as bumping up compression, IMO. Perhaps for mild compression mods like 10.5-11, but not something that's 12+ to 13

So I agree with you on that point on high compression creating higher peak pressures at combustions, which creates power, but ignition timing also plays a part there as well.

In a way, it's a combo of parts that make the power, but exactly how they play a part is the answer I'm looking for in my modding adventure. And to study that, I need to understand how flow and density changes as affected by intake temp and elevation.

Everyone seems to agree on the point that high rpm need high compression, bigger duration and lift, but no one seems to know exactly how much or a close estimate.
 

harpoon

500 RPM
Senior Member
Jan 9, 2005
607
7
3,018
shah alam n amp
Yeah.. it does make sense, however, there is also concern of how these high compression affect burn rates, as a high compression engine with retarded timings also doesn't produce much power. It's not as straightforward as bumping up compression, IMO. Perhaps for mild compression mods like 10.5-11, but not something that's 12+ to 13

So I agree with you on that point on high compression creating higher peak pressures at combustions, which creates power, but ignition timing also plays a part there as well.

In a way, it's a combo of parts that make the power, but exactly how they play a part is the answer I'm looking for in my modding adventure. And to study that, I need to understand how flow and density changes as affected by intake temp and elevation.

Everyone seems to agree on the point that high rpm need high compression, bigger duration and lift, but no one seems to know exactly how much or a close estimate.
why don't you get the ecu mapping from a k-series engine, those original data and also by hondata, perhaps it could help you in your search for the point of maximum power in an n/a engine...

btw, u mentioned that you want the exact number, i guess it's variable is across the engine range so that it's kinda difficult to pick one number and expect it to give optimum power across the range
 

J101

1,000 RPM
Senior Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,304
0
1,636
malaysia
wow! the only thing i know if we go back to the original question, if the b18cr cams is better than b16b, dcloo gonna hike it up to rm1500 cams only maybe..hahahah...or maybe more..hehehe

i thought i just walked into a science lab for a second :p
 

dcloo

1,500 RPM
Senior Member
Thread starter
May 11, 2005
1,784
17
3,138
kl
wow! the only thing i know if we go back to the original question, if the b18cr cams is better than b16b, dcloo gonna hike it up to rm1500 cams only maybe..hahahah...or maybe more..hehehe

i thought i just walked into a science lab for a second :p
wah.. even i was sell lots of stuff but i not the kind
since all my b18cr cam was sold if not then sure got lots of story
but i still got 2 pair b16b cam:(

here of some my sales offer http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/engine-and-performance/165284-ek-9-mega-sales-must-view.html
 
Last edited:

harpoon

500 RPM
Senior Member
Jan 9, 2005
607
7
3,018
shah alam n amp
mie...thought u already got both pair b16b and b18cr cams???

now u can start with toda or jun la...hehehe
 

Random Post Every 5 Minutes



Porsche have let loose on plans to reveal a mid-engines sports car at next week’s Los Angeles Auto Show that will headline the showcase alongside its latest 911 variants, the GTS and Speedster.

The bets are in though and it looks like a firm hand on the new variant being the much-rumoured Cayman Clubsport, something along the lines of a...
Ask a question, start a discussion or post something for sale!
Post thread

Online now

Enjoying Zerotohundred?

Log-in for an ad-less experience