Is heel and toe needed for FF layout cars?

[CountersteerSan]

Hey sifu-sifus, is heel and toe needed for FF layout cars? As far as I know, the reason for heel toe is to prevent the breaking out of the rear during downshifting when entering a corner right? Besides that the other only benefit is maintaining rev? So is this technique really needed in like ff layout cars?

Paiseh ahh I really don't know

 

[neohadri]

I hv tried without it, car jerking, gb sound strain, i cant imagine that be good

 

[papagoines]

Me think it applies to all cars with manual transmission.... me no expert but the theory that to maintain the power band during gear changes...

 

[bera]

if you do it right (matching the rev as you down shift)...the "engine braking" will help stop/slow the car faster than using the brake alone...

practice and get to know your car...for me and i'm no pro...bleeping the throttle is easy...getting the brake and clutch pedal to work harmoniously without making the car jerk is the hard part...

 

[6UE5t]

Heel & toe is beneficial for all manual cars, not just RWD/AWD.

 

[pwhyze]

Yep, echoing what others have said, it's for all manual cars, regardless of layout. It works well coupled with late braking.

 

[papagoines]

if you do it right (matching the rev as you down shift)...the "engine braking" will help stop/slow the car faster than using the brake alone...

practice and get to know your car...for me and i'm no pro...bleeping the throttle is easy...getting the brake and clutch pedal to work harmoniously without making the car jerk is the hard part...

just learned how to blip the throttle when downshift... still jerks but once in a while (make it 3 out of 10 tries ) it shift smoothly and made me smile

but then, when try to learn heel-toeing kinda cramping my legs.... maybe the kancil's pedal placement is not that optimum... :hmmmm: or me being the 'kaki bangku'

but one of my touge-crazed friend suggest left foot braking... i tried it, hurts my head when banging the steering wheel

 

[neohadri]

just learned how to blip the throttle when downshift... still jerks but once in a while (make it 3 out of 10 tries ) it shift smoothly and made me smile

but then, when try to learn heel-toeing kinda cramping my legs.... maybe the kancil's pedal placement is not that optimum... :hmmmm: or me being the 'kaki bangku'

but one of my touge-crazed friend suggest left foot braking... i tried it, hurts my head when banging the steering wheel

If u need to do it, place ur heel on floor, that should help to give some control on how much pressure u apply on brake pedal, that being said for me left foot braking is kindda dangerous to use on public road

 

[CountersteerSan]

if you do it right (matching the rev as you down shift)...the "engine braking" will help stop/slow the car faster than using the brake alone...

practice and get to know your car...for me and i'm no pro...bleeping the throttle is easy...getting the brake and clutch pedal to work harmoniously without making the car jerk is the hard part...

In my case, controlling the amount of pressure on the brake pedal is really a pain in the buntut because there's no ABS on my car. There was once I skidded straight on a wide 90 degree corner. Luckily dint hit anything

 

[bera]

just learned how to blip the throttle when downshift... still jerks but once in a while (make it 3 out of 10 tries ) it shift smoothly and made me smile

but then, when try to learn heel-toeing kinda cramping my legs.... maybe the kancil's pedal placement is not that optimum... :hmmmm: or me being the 'kaki bangku'

but one of my touge-crazed friend suggest left foot braking... i tried it, hurts my head when banging the steering wheel

yeah i get what you mean...the smooth transition on the downshift...enough to put a smile on my face also...not to mention the weight transfer to the front smoothly...not jerking/shiftlocking all over the place...hehehe

at first my stock paddle are too wide apart...and my foot will be in an awkward position if i try to heel and toe...got some aftermarket paddle thingy...now its in a more relaxed position...being said that...it still takes a lot of practice to master it (even now still in kindergarten level )...

 

[Waiora_ProTuner]

Actually, there's a misconception of the purpose of heel-and-toeing...

Its not to put the engine in the power band..normal shift also can..
Its not to provide engine braking...normal shift also can...

Its to prevent your wheel locking during the downshift from the abrupt clutch release...

I dont think you can do/need to do left-foot braking for heel and toe...

 

[CountersteerSan]

Actually, there's a misconception of the purpose of heel-and-toeing...

Its not to put the engine in the power band..normal shift also can..
Its not to provide engine braking...normal shift also can...

Its to prevent your wheel locking during the downshift from the abrupt clutch release...

I dont think you can do/need to do left-foot braking for heel and toe...

The sudden clutch release that causes the locking of wheels is like clutch kicking technique in fr layouts to drift ahhh?
Hmmm, normal downshift can provide engine brake but don't think you can maintain a higher rev range if you don't heel toe it, right? Maybe if you just brake and down shift you'll exit a corner at like 3~4k+ rpm? But if you heel toe, maybe you can increase the rev to like 5~6k? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm very sure also

 

[papagoines]

If u need to do it, place ur heel on floor, that should help to give some control on how much pressure u apply on brake pedal, that being said for me left foot braking is kindda dangerous to use on public road

some advance driving at some europe country do encourage left foot braking even on public road. don't practice on public roads la

yeah i get what you mean...the smooth transition on the downshift...enough to put a smile on my face also...not to mention the weight transfer to the front smoothly...not jerking/shiftlocking all over the place...hehehe

at first my stock paddle are too wide apart...and my foot will be in an awkward position if i try to heel and toe...got some aftermarket paddle thingy...now its in a more relaxed position...being said that...it still takes a lot of practice to master it (even now still in kindergarten level )...

as per kancil, it seem to narrow and my brake pedal seems too high compare to other pedal

Actually, there's a misconception of the purpose of heel-and-toeing...

Its not to put the engine in the power band..normal shift also can..
Its not to provide engine braking...normal shift also can...

Its to prevent your wheel locking during the downshift from the abrupt clutch release...

I dont think you can do/need to do left-foot braking for heel and toe...

yup... either heel/toeing or left-foot... not both...

 

[6UE5t]

I'm always using left foot braking now but I'm driving auto cars. It's just like playing gokart. :)
If manual cars of course most of the time just right foot braking like normal. Only if you don't need to down shift in a corner then you can do left foot braking, but if you need to down shift obviously your left foot need to press the clutch lah. :)
But whether left or right foot braking is more about your preference, which one do you like and can get used to, there's no right or wrong about it. If you're not used to doing left foot braking then don't do it. If you want to try, practice it first in an empty road and watch your mirrors before you apply braking because most first timers will hit too hard and brake too suddenly.

 

[papagoines]

for one thing, learning to left-foot braking is simpler compared to heel-toeing...still open for debate though hehe... but here's a thought on left-foot braking

Why You Should Brake With Your Left Foot

We got a friend once, who swap an auto-trans daihatsu mira L5 turbo to his kancil. stock-for-stock, he can keep up with us when touge on our fave back road... one of his secret was he like to brake with his left foot. at that time, we've thought it was weird

now our group disbanded and he moved on to bigger car, and he still can't shed his left-foot braking

 

[6UE5t]

Yeah left foot braking is actually easy to do, just need to get used to it, that's it. :)

 

[Tom]

Hey sifu-sifus, is heel and toe needed for FF layout cars? As far as I know, the reason for heel toe is to prevent the breaking out of the rear during downshifting when entering a corner right? Besides that the other only benefit is maintaining rev? So is this technique really needed in like ff layout cars?

Paiseh ahh I really don't know

Locking the wheels on any platform are not preferred. H&T is all about maintaining a smooth transition between gears. Anyway, good question in a long time, regardless how newbie it may seem, and yes, do it for the love of manual cars. Practice it well and perform it like it's an art.

just learned how to blip the throttle when downshift... still jerks but once in a while (make it 3 out of 10 tries ) it shift smoothly and made me smile

but then, when try to learn heel-toeing kinda cramping my legs.... maybe the kancil's pedal placement is not that optimum... :hmmmm: or me being the 'kaki bangku'

but one of my touge-crazed friend suggest left foot braking... i tried it, hurts my head when banging the steering wheel

In my case, controlling the amount of pressure on the brake pedal is really a pain in the buntut because there's no ABS on my car. There was once I skidded straight on a wide 90 degree corner. Luckily dint hit anything

From my experience, here are ways to improve your H&T learning experience:
- ACTUALLY using your TOEs rather than the whole foot to get a better feel of your brake pedal.
- Your Toe need not be in center of pedal. Try far right of the brake pedal.
- DONT press the gas pedal. STAB / Jab it in a sharp, quick motion to rapidly up the revs.
- More revs is always better than less revs. Always try more then gradually lessen to taste.
- Brake first. Then almost ALL AT ONCE: clutch in, jab the throttle, shift and release clutch.
- The lower the gear you need the shift, the higher you need to rev.
- Never be satisfied with your H&T. Keep mastering it till you get it right every time.
- A good H&T = NO JERK whatsoever.

 

[papagoines]

From my experience, here are ways to improve your H&T learning experience:
- ACTUALLY using your TOEs rather than the whole foot to get a better feel of your brake pedal.
- Your Toe need not be in center of pedal. Try far right of the brake pedal.
- DONT press the gas pedal. STAB / Jab it in a sharp, quick motion to rapidly up the revs.
- More revs is always better than less revs. Always try more then gradually lessen to taste.
- Brake first. Then almost ALL AT ONCE: clutch in, jab the throttle, shift and release clutch.
- The lower the gear you need the shift, the higher you need to rev.
- Never be satisfied with your H&T. Keep mastering it till you get it right every time.
- A good H&T = NO JERK whatsoever.

thanks!

 

[Waiora_ProTuner]

From my experience, here are ways to improve your H&T learning experience:
- ACTUALLY using your TOEs rather than the whole foot to get a better feel of your brake pedal.
- Your Toe need not be in center of pedal. Try far right of the brake pedal.
- DONT press the gas pedal. STAB / Jab it in a sharp, quick motion to rapidly up the revs.
- More revs is always better than less revs. Always try more then gradually lessen to taste.
- Brake first. Then almost ALL AT ONCE: clutch in, jab the throttle, shift and release clutch.
- The lower the gear you need the shift, the higher you need to rev.
- Never be satisfied with your H&T. Keep mastering it till you get it right every time.
- A good H&T = NO JERK whatsoever.

Thanks!

Thats why its named HEEL n TOE..
I found it easier when using racing shoes, like Puma...
Also, when using car that eager to rev, lightened flywheel on manual...
Auto car slower to rev, need more stab/jab on the throttle...
Last, best to do during heavy braking...less feel need on brake pedal and better rev matching..

 

[6UE5t]

Thanks!

Thats why its named HEEL n TOE..
I found it easier when using racing shoes, like Puma...
Also, when using car that eager to rev, lightened flywheel on manual...
Auto car slower to rev, need more stab/jab on the throttle...
Last, best to do during heavy braking...less feel need on brake pedal and better rev matching..

Auto cars don't need H&T la. :)

Anyway also best if you have cars with good pedal placement between the brake & gas. If too far apart and/or the brake is sticking out too much, then more difficult to practice. May need to buy some pedal extensions like the Razo one where the lower right of the brake and the lower left of the gas can be extended to make the spacing closer.