Typical timing for street cars at Sepang SIC

[cqloh]

minivan: when the oversteering feeling went away did you start to understeer?
i've never worked on an EF before.. but i'm assuming that the trailing arm setup is the same with EGs and EKs... with those cars i usually run about 2 degrees camber... if its a lil hairy in the straights and on the brakes i'll dail in 1-2mm toe in.

should be worth a try

Bump: minivan: when the oversteering feeling went away did you start to understeer?
i've never worked on an EF before.. but i'm assuming that the trailing arm setup is the same with EGs and EKs... with those cars i usually run about 2 degrees camber... if its a lil hairy in the straights and on the brakes i'll dail in 1-2mm toe in.

should be worth a try

 

[soulV]

minivan, have u change ur trailing arm bushing or done anything to the trailing arm...i'm experiencing o/steer with my car now ...need to figure our why since nver happend before...change all my bushing front & rear to superpro including trailing arm n also change my suspension + new antiroll bar rear & new front & rear strut bar....hmm...can anyone answer me where r the possible cause of o/steer to my EF?

thanks

Bump: minivan, have u change ur trailing arm bushing or done anything to the trailing arm...i'm experiencing o/steer with my car now ...need to figure our why since nver happend before...change all my bushing front & rear to superpro including trailing arm n also change my suspension + new antiroll bar rear & new front & rear strut bar....hmm...can anyone answer me where r the possible cause of o/steer to my EF?

thanks

Bump: minivan, have u change ur trailing arm bushing or done anything to the trailing arm...i'm experiencing o/steer with my car now ...need to figure our why since nver happend before...change all my bushing front & rear to superpro including trailing arm n also change my suspension + new antiroll bar rear & new front & rear strut bar....hmm...can anyone answer me where r the possible cause of o/steer to my EF?

thanks

 

[faisal]

Wah, Adian & cqloh have really gone to town with this thread. Combined it makes for an interesting read, when one has the time to do so.

adian.. hahah you're very welcome.. its always good when a driver appreciates an engineeres explanations.. they usually shrug and say "i just know how to drive"....

Haha That sounds a bit like me. Though in my defense once it gets TOO technical, my brain can't cope as I need to focus on driving :stupid: ..

 

[minivan]

CQ...
Yes, it just understeered, but quite normally as FFs tend to do. Nothing out of the ordinary i would say...EF and EG trailing arms are the same, EKs are just a tiny bit different, i think... But u don't get that feeling in EGs or EKs. They're pretty sure footed...

Care to explain a bit more of toes bro? Never really played around with toe settings... how do they effect a cars handling?

SoulV bro...
When i had my EF, yes i did change most of the bushings to new ones, including the big one on the trailing arm, and all using the std rubber bushes... why u ask huh?

hmm... oversteering EF huh?! What chamber setting u running now?? Try running less -neg chamber up front first la... or start like how adian suggested... 'reset' everything first... Level the car to a not too low not to high height, redo alignment, maybe set only -1 chamber all round first, then see how the car feels. Only then start tweaking little by little (height, chamber, etc)

 

[cqloh]

alright guys... this is that part about cars that people get really get put off about..
but here we have the perfect example...
soulV and minivan both drive EFs (whether crx or EF9)... one has a tendency to over steer and one has a tendency to under. both are essentially the same car when they left the honda factory in good old nihon..

the explanation is a rather lengthy one.. and it is also one that is most important when it comes to racing. alot of people (especially in malaysia) get lost in the world of engine power and what "the other guys is doing". here we have two schools of thought.... one guy went and changed his bushes.. one guy changed his roll bars.. two might have different brake pads and brake settings.. they might also differ in terms of engine power, cam characteristics hence engine torque, gear ratios etc etc.. the list is as long as it is broad...

whats difficult for most people to grasp is that to be able to get from point A to point B and back again; in essence cirumnavigate a given track, circuit, course.... is the law of averages.
everything had to be averaged.. everything has to be equalized and hence BALANCED.

alot of drivers get caught up (especially in sepang) with going faster round turns 5 and 6 and round turn 12.. all they focus on is those corners that so much so they lose focus around the other corners... there are 15 turns around sepang.. if you're fast around 3 turns.. you still have 12 to deal with.. the important thing is that you are averagely fast in all 15 turns...

back to the issue with soulV and minivan.. they are the same cars from birth.. but differ vastly in settings... soulV has changed his roll bars... minivan didn;t.. they both might differ in springs and in damping rates(shocks)... hence they differ in balance.. there are alot of possibilities and alot of solutions.. but one must first identify the try problem...

from experience.. the possibility might be that soulV might have too hard a REAR roll bar or too hard a rear spring rate or too stiff a shock setting or some really screwed up alignment.. the list goes on and on..

minivan might have the exact opposite.. bit if he's running stock roll bars.. chances are he's got the wrong alignment or the wrong shocks..

remember that over steer and under steer is the balance of grip front and rear.. too much front grip and the car oversteers.. too much rear and the car unders...

which is why we set everything to ZERO when we test race cars... start from scratch and go from there...

one more thing... FF and FRs both understeer from the factory.. this balance is set because its easier to correct an understeering car than it is an oversteering car.. just because the the car you drive is FF and it understeers doesn;t mean that its meant to.. its does that because it was set up to.. a FF car can be set to oversteer just like a RWD car... but just not the way you see it when they guys in D1 drift...

as for toe settings... maybe another day... LOL..

hope this helps and hope you guys don;t start busting your balls...:boxing:

 

[faisal]

a lot of drivers get caught up (especially in sepang) with going faster round turns 5 and 6 and round turn 12.. all they focus on is those corners that so much so they lose focus around the other corners... there are 15 turns around sepang.. if you're fast around 3 turns.. you still have 12 to deal with.. the important thing is that you are averagely fast in all 15 turns...

I'd like to add to that point. :proud:

In general, it's easier to lose time in slow corners rather than gain in fast corners.

ie, Plenty of people still mess Turns 1,2,4,9,14,15, but in contrast perfecting their entry/exit at T5-6, T7-8, T12. Remember, T1-2 leads into an uphill climb, similiarly so does T9. And T14 & T15 leads into the main straights

Bear in mind, messing the entry and exits in/out of the slower turns result in very slow exits ending with slower speeds in the following straight leading to more time lost.

 

[deacon]

Hopefully the toe setups will be explained.

I recently had my alignment done and the joker that was doing it told me that -0.3 toe and +0.9 toe, left and right respectively is okay. I wanted both to be negative which means the tires and facing outwards correct?

 

[soulV]

SoulV bro...
When i had my EF, yes i did change most of the bushings to new ones, including the big one on the trailing arm, and all using the std rubber bushes... why u ask huh?


minivan,
i read some write up regarding changing the trailing arm bush(after i've changed to superpro..deym)which reccomend changing only to OEM since teflon will change the character of the bush in term of direction of freeplay..OEM can go circle but teflon only vertival & horizontal ..this changed the purpose of a trailing arm...hmm...just could'nt find where did i save the diagram..:hmmmm:

cq...care to comment...thanks

 

[faisal]

minivan,
i read some write up regarding changing the trailing arm bush(after i've changed to superpro..deym)which reccomend changing only to OEM since teflon will change the character of the bush in term of direction of freeplay..OEM can go circle but teflon only vertival & horizontal ..this changed the purpose of a trailing arm...hmm...just could'nt find where did i save the diagram..:hmmmm:

cq...care to comment...thanks

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Most teflon/PU bushes needs lubrication to work well. After some time the lubrication wears off on u suffer from squeeks. This squeeks results from the metal parts rubbing againts the teflon/PU. Which results in the bushes wearing off, or worse breakin.

Hence most recommends replacing with OE rubber bushes. Some do change to stiffer rubber bushes (TRD , R3 Bushes). Better yet is to use sealed spherical bearings

In terms of the direction thingy, I recall the lateral/longitudinal movement being an issue for trailing arm, in a NEO at least. By changing to teflon/PU, the arm is not able to move in certain direction during load.

 

[adian]

SoulV: You are right there about bushes.

Firstly, I applaud you for changing your bushes. So many ppl always overlook this most basic of necessities when setting up their car!! Brand news super duper 39-way adjustable Tein suspension means nothing when you have crap and old bushes holding everything together. Every corner you take your wheels will end up pointing left right up or down, basically everywhere but where they're supposed to point, and your handling will be rubbish!

The thing about bushes is, everything is a compromise. In the OEM world, we're totally against PU bushes. When we were in R3, we made hard-rubber bushes. They were shore 90 hardness, against the standard bushes which are like shore 40. You may notice that TRD, Mazdaspeed, Nismo, etc all produce hard rubber bushes. Only the smaller aftermarket companies which do not have the capabilities or engineering to produce hard-rubber bushes will make and try to sell you PU bushes.

PU bushes suck. Bushes are designed together as part as of the whole suspension geometry package. Some of your suspension arms, via their bushes, are engineer to deflect a certain way under certain loads and forces. All sorts of engineering stuff is taken into account: bump-steer, compliance steer, roll centre, blah blah blah. Basically, stuff that I wouldn't f*ck with wei, as it could lead to downright dangerous handling. And yet, when you replace your rubber bushes with PU sh*t, you are doing just that: altering the complete dynamics of your whole suspension. I would highly recommend against that!!

I mean ok, to be fair, certain non-dynamic bushes like swaybar mountings and link bushes, can be changed no worries. But stuff like trailing arm bushes, front and rear lower arm mountings, and strut top mounts, I wouldn't screw with. These bushes are developed with certain "paths", which when you omit, completely change the handling of the car. Oh yes, you can go the complete PU bush or even better spherical bushes route, but you really need to know what you're doing. And that's what engineers like CQ are for. And since I don't know everything about suspension, I preferably wouldn't mess with my bushes. I always buy rubber bushes where possible. They're more expensive, but they're more consistent in their performance and handling of the vehicle.

/adian

 

[deacon]

Anyone know of hard rubber bushes for Hond'uhs?

 

[faisal]

SLIGHTLY off topic

Anyone know of hard rubber bushes for Hond'uhs?

jonn,

Mugen makes hard rubber bushes for DC2s

 

[deacon]

Eh you remembered its me kah hahaha!

Mugen? Hmm, sounds difficult to find. Will keep my eyes peeled for those.

 

[akuma]

deacon,
if MUGEN is too expensive 4 u,u can try Hard Race.....manufactured in Taiwan n mind u....dis stuffs r really good!not exactly cheap but it'll work as good as MUGEN's........if u wan d dealer's contact,PM me....i dun 1na post here wait ppl say i advertise pulak!hahahahah............if u noticed,during d Sepang 1000KM Race,a particular matte green EG Civic haf HUGE Hard Race decals on either side....dat's their track car n d owner itself is 1 of d drivers...he actually built d car frm scratch.......n yes,i call him my sifu...eheehhe

soulV,
yg u gatal2 went n chg 2 PU 4 wat?u haf so many EF buddies ard n u din consult us?now after hearing d gurus explanation abt d PU bushes,u REALLY feel like whacking urself on d head,right?n yes,in case ur wondering...Hard Race do produce hard rubber bushings 4 EF too...but u hafta b specific w d parts ur using..like ur arm..is it frm an EF1,2,3,8,9?they r different.....n abt countering a tail happy EF,dis is usually wat i do 2 my CR-X....i just simply put d spare tyre back in coz i dun drive w my spare tyre ard town.....work wonders ard SIC n also whn i was active in autocrossing.....d tail wud b more predictable n won swing out dat happily......a lil more weight yes but u get better handling.....n oh....did u check ur alignment,cambers n such again after d bush change?mayb sumthg went wrong sumwhr?n do check ur spring rates too.....generally i'll keep d front harder thn d rear.....n i usually set my TEIN HA harder in d frt too whn i go track

n just 4 d record..minivan USED 2 drive an EF...he's not driving an EP3R dy...VERY fast wor!hahahahahha

 

[cqloh]

excellent post adian...

firstly, the problem with PU (especially the ones you get the machine shop guy to make) bushes is that they are not consistent. PU is basically made from a mixture of a resin and a catalyst.. much like the resin in fibre glass.. so the strength, hardness, yield limit and modulus of elasticity is dependant on how well that was mixed and how accurate those mixtures were, a slight deviation results in a different product...

secondly, bushes that are meant to comply(move,bend,deflect) from the factory already have the geometry taken into consideration. Honda spent millions to develop the suspension that went into their cars.. its arguable that they were meant for the streets.. but that doesn;t mean that
by going something harder and stiffer you're gonna get a better car. adians already touched this topic so i'll leave it at that.

to answer soulVs question... if you look at the OEM trailing arm bush you will notice that there are gaps in the bush for the metal rod to deflect in all directions.. the superpro stuff is one solid piece.. and does NOT deflect...and it took me so long to get the alignment correct on that car. every time the car was driven.. the alignment went haywire.. from experience i thought it was the biggest con job.. i never used those bushes again...
HOWEVER... there's always more than one way to skin a cat... if the car is indeed oversteering from the bush... check your alignment and dial in about 1-2mm or toe in

my advice is the same as adian's... get OEM or get hard rubber bushes from your vehicle make's motorsport department... everything else is questionable. be very weary of items that are cheap... because at the end of the day.. you'll pay the price in a different way..

if it was a car thats only meant for the track... i only use good quality sphericals... much of that is also dependant on your machinist.. so be good buddies with him and you'll be alright.

the point of today's lesson is that BUSHES PLAY AN IMPORTANT ROLE TO YOUR CARS HANDLING...
it can change the cars balance entirely.. good if it suits your driving style.. but its a horror if its not doing what you want it to..

lastly... if you're gonna change the bushes.. change them ALL.. save up and have them all changed at the same time... go get an alignment done.. and go to the track... i'll guarantee you'll feel like its another car.

 

[kennethcyf]

Hardrace bushing is superb...I am My White EG6 track car is using this......full pillowball bushing....Handling is superb..... The Hardrace dealer Mr. Joe is my good friend..... He can advise you if you have any question....

 

[cqloh]

its late.. and i suddenly feel like talking about toe.. haha.. you get urges sometimes... so for those that are interested in what i have to say, i thank you in advance for paying attention and hope you learn something new.

the most important and often overlooked performance part in a car is the tire.
think about it for a moment.. over 1 tonne of your vehicles weight sits on 4 areas.. each the size of your palm.. the contact patch. now.. everything that you do.. be it driving, increasing horse power, increasing torque, braking, turning, accelerating, chaging shocks, springs etc etc affect the contact patch. thats alot for something that small...

now the modern tire is an amazing piece of technological advancement... having the ability to deform and to reform, bend, flex, absorb shock and accept heat above bearing the weight of your overweight ass and the car.
as with all components of racing.. it is also a compromise... i'm not going into every area of what makes a tire generate grip since each tire differs in construction, compound, side wall stiffness etc etc.. most manufacturers keep the precise values secret.

but the important lesson to today is about slip angle. alot of you guys will probably hear this for the first time and never would have thought it made such a difference.
the text book definition of slip angle is the angle between the direction of the rim and the undeflected contact patch of the tire.

wtf??!???!????

tires are made from rubber. rubber is pliable. rubber has a delayed reaction expecially when you have the force of the ground pulling and the weight of the car pushing. so if you imagine your car going down the straight.. the tire is in an undeformed state.. as soon as you turn the steering wheel and hence change the direction of the wheel... the tire will take a certain amount of time to react. so you can imagine your tires facing straight and the rim already turned.. the angle between the tire and the rim is called the slip angle.

now i'm not going into the calculations and the reasoning of why this happens (usually takes about 6 months of explaining in a degree course.. so you'll just have to take my word for it). but as this slip angle increases grip increases up until your reach a point where it falls away. so the graph is a hyperbola....
the idea is to stay at the peak of the hyperbola where there is maximum grip...

how does this affect you? when you dial in more static toe.. you are effectively dialing in more slip angle at a certain turn... the question is, is that slip angle before, at the peak or over the peak of the tires slip angle curve?

thats where you have to test and figure out the slip angle characteristic of your tires.. each tire has a different slip angle graph..
and to complicate things even further.. temperature, pressure, weight, baro, air density and humidity all play a part...

who ever said life was easy?

:proud: gotta love racing hey?:proud:

 

[deacon]

Woooo from a few questions to more questions

 

[soulV]

nganganganga:hmmmm:

eventho i can only understand haf of wat cq wrote but it interest me a lot( regret of not finishing my engineering study bef but went to study business & become poor govt servant)...hahahha..

adian/faisal,
thanks alot for the explaination..

akuma,
i think i need to consider changing the bush(before or after july 18..poket koyak already) what say u...? just too excited to change the bushes bef n u r deym rite that i shud get feedback 1st & deymm u do know how i feel after reading adian's post

i think this is the best thread so far i'm involved in because of u get the experience driver to explain how the car behave and an engineer to explain why...i really cant wait for practical just to clear my doubt......aarrgghh..

 

[minivan]

Wah... getting more and more interesting... and pening

First things first.... so Super Pros are rubbish??? Damn!! I just bought a set for the lower control arms. No time to pasang yet... so i guess i should return them to hokomoto huh? and get a set from hardrace instead?? Who got number?

On toes...for amature part-timer-racer-wannabes like me, how are we gonna figure out the 'slip angle characteristic of our tires'?? How do you pros do this? or would you recommend us amatures to just stick to zero toe...

Akuma... my 2-door-Jazz tall and heavy la, not like ur feather-lite-ultra-aerodynamic rex...