Spring Rate & Damping

[marv3]

Hi sifus,

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but i would like to ask about the relationship of this 2 things in a suspension setup.

Some suspension has the HLHS. But how does the hard-soft feature affect the car's character? The hard-soft feature is just for the dampers and not the springs. I understand that the spring is the component that takes in the shocks and mitigate body rolls and all. And the dampers are there to control the springs compression (bump) and extension (rebound). But my question is, how does it correlated or compliment one another?

If i have very soft springs but i set my damping to very hard. Will i have a comfortable soft ride?

If i have a very hard springs but i set my damping to very soft. Will i have good handling?

I am just curious to know. As i often hear ppl talk about adjustables and then say things like "ohhhh too hard ah? Adjust softer la your dampers" or "too soft bro. must adjust the dampers harder"

But to me, the hard-soft they talking about, is not the springs isnt it? And adjusting the dampers wont make it more comfortable isnt it? (if u have hard springs)

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

Hi sifus,

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but i would like to ask about the relationship of this 2 things in a suspension setup.

Some suspension has the HLHS. But how does the hard-soft feature affect the car's character? The hard-soft feature is just for the dampers and not the springs. I understand that the spring is the component that takes in the shocks and mitigate body rolls and all. And the dampers are there to control the springs compression (bump) and extension (rebound). But my question is, how does it correlated or compliment one another?

If i have very soft springs but i set my damping to very hard. Will i have a comfortable soft ride?

If i have a very hard springs but i set my damping to very soft. Will i have good handling?

I am just curious to know. As i often hear ppl talk about adjustables and then say things like "ohhhh too hard ah? Adjust softer la your dampers" or "too soft bro. must adjust the dampers harder"

But to me, the hard-soft they talking about, is not the springs isnt it? And adjusting the dampers wont make it more comfortable isnt it? (if u have hard springs)

still no substitute for proper spring rate selection.... and once proper spring rate selected, the damping adjustment used to fine tuning the damping to match the spring....

and yes the answer is true...even with good spring selection, u can still adjust the damping for comfort or high performance driving.....because sometimes when driving u'll just wish that u want softer ride or firmer ride at that moment...

 

[marv3]

and yes the answer is true...even with good spring selection, u can still adjust the damping for comfort or high performance driving.....because sometimes when driving u'll just wish that u want softer ride or firmer ride at that moment...

I thought the hardness/softness is determine by the spring rate?

So if i have a fully adjustable coilovers with say a very hard springs for racing/performance, like 10kg rate, i can still adjust the dampers to make the car become comfortable?? How does this work?? This is the part i tak faham

 

[vr2turbo]

Soft springs will have more movement but will be limited as the hard dampers halt it's bound and rebound.
What I have now is hard springs and when tune to soft damping, the springs more or less keeps bouncing (bound and rebound)
When tune to hard, movement gone, you get solid jolts, so tune to about half.....hahhahha

 

[marv3]

Soft springs will have more movement but will be limited as the hard dampers halt it's bound and rebound.
What I have now is hard springs and when tune to soft damping, the springs more or less keeps bouncing (bound and rebound)
When tune to hard, movement gone, you get solid jolts, so tune to about half.....hahhahha

Hmmmmm

Still dont quite get the damping purpose......

If i tune the dampers to hard and i use soft springs, it will also limit the springs movement isnt it? And then cause the ride to me jolting.....So what is the relation with the both? I mean, i can have one without the other. Example, stock dampers with either hard or soft springs. So why adjustable damping?

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

Hmmmmm

Still dont quite get the damping purpose......

If i tune the dampers to hard and i use soft springs, it will also limit the springs movement isnt it? And then cause the ride to me jolting.....So what is the relation with the both? I mean, i can have one without the other. Example, stock dampers with either hard or soft springs. So why adjustable damping?

damper task is to dampen the spring bouncing rate....


thats why i said whatever spring u choose u need to tune the damping to suits the spring....



once u got the good base setting....


lets say u want a little bit softer ride...u reduce the damping = springs will move less resistant =softer comforter ride.....


same case when one day u decide to go to trackday....just set the damping to harder setting so it will assist the soft spring and together become firmer for better cornering....

so whatever spring u choose...set the damping rate as well to suits.....then only after that u'll appreciate damping adjustment whenever u changed your driving mood....

 

[gunnerzz]

Hmmmmm

Still dont quite get the damping purpose......

If i tune the dampers to hard and i use soft springs, it will also limit the springs movement isnt it? And then cause the ride to me jolting.....So what is the relation with the both? I mean, i can have one without the other. Example, stock dampers with either hard or soft springs. So why adjustable damping?

The absorber or damper job is to control how the spring behave.
by behave i mean how the spring compress amd rebound.
in layman term it control how fast the spring compress or rebound.

normal hlsh adjustable suspension have one knob which control both the rebound and bound damping.
hsuper high end will have seperate control for bound and rebound meaning it has 2 knob.

adjustable damping is to fine tune the ride to suit yr taste.
for example,too soft damping will make long distance journey tiring as the car keeps on moving up and down.
however,this situation is good on city driving.
for long distance,harder damping is best.
anyway,above is my preference.

for city driving,i luv my blm with its super soft damping.
it makes me relaxed even during jam.

for long distance i luv my waja,not that i liv to go fast anymore but its less tiring as body movement is less.

if you read my older post somewhere in this forum you will know that my blm was on proride sport spring combined with stock absorber.on some road its more comfortable than the stock spring as it contribute to less movement.
on other road its very uncomfortable as the stock absorber damping force camt cope with the spring bound and rebound rate.

 

[vr2turbo]

Hmmmmm

Still dont quite get the damping purpose......

If i tune the dampers to hard and i use soft springs, it will also limit the springs movement isnt it? And then cause the ride to me jolting.....So what is the relation with the both? I mean, i can have one without the other. Example, stock dampers with either hard or soft springs. So why adjustable damping?

Answer to your question. If you use for daily drive only then you don't need it. Tune and set to your daily drive settings.
However if you are using for track play, touge and daily drive the adjustable are there for you to adjust according to your driving, be it touge or track then later set back to daily drive settings.
Ask bro. Izso, he tried with his hero last time on the track. He tried one round with daily drive setting, then one round with harder setting and finally one round with max setting. He said best time around the track was with max settings....

 

[marv3]

I understand the benefits or the advantages of having adjustables.

I am wanting to understand more about the correlation between the Springs and Dampers.....

Coz when ppl talk about hard-soft with their coilovers, they are referring to the damping. I just cannot get my head around, if springs is the one that determine the cars oscillation which in turn determine the cars driving/handling character, then how does dampers come in to play?

Example, if i have super super hard spring rates, and i set my dampers to softest, i will still feel the car being damn stiff right? Because the spring doesnt compress coz is too hard and that will lead to all the vibration and jolt being transfer to the chassis.....No??
Or the other way round. Soft springs with super hard damping. The dampers will prevent the springs to compress thus the car will still be stiff.:hmmmm::hmmmm:

 

[Izso]

Youtube "Engineering explained" and read up on his spring vs coilover explanation. It talks about the differences between soft springs and hard springs and why hard springs are bad for daily use.

A track will have absolutely flat surface. I don't need bodyroll or whatever, I just need the car to be flat and gripping the corners. Hence the maximum hardest settings. On our rubbish tar roads, that setting would rattle the crap out of everything in the car. So turn all the way down for softer ride which made a huge difference (but it's worth noting that even at softer settings, stock OEM suspension is still more comfortable).

---------- Post added at 10:14 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------

I understand the benefits or the advantages of having adjustables.

I am wanting to understand more about the correlation between the Springs and Dampers.....

Coz when ppl talk about hard-soft with their coilovers, they are referring to the damping. I just cannot get my head around, if springs is the one that determine the cars oscillation which in turn determine the cars driving/handling character, then how does dampers come in to play?

Example, if i have super super hard spring rates, and i set my dampers to softest, i will still feel the car being damn stiff right? Because the spring doesnt compress coz is too hard and that will lead to all the vibration and jolt being transfer to the chassis.....No??
Or the other way round. Soft springs with super hard damping. The dampers will prevent the springs to compress thus the car will still be stiff.:hmmmm::hmmmm:

Go watch that youtube video I recommended. Springs determine the force your wheel will have on the road. The dampers will determine how fast or slow that force will react and in some ways indirectly affect the force on the road.

 

[vr2turbo]

I understand the benefits or the advantages of having adjustables.

I am wanting to understand more about the correlation between the Springs and Dampers.....

Coz when ppl talk about hard-soft with their coilovers, they are referring to the damping. I just cannot get my head around, if springs is the one that determine the cars oscillation which in turn determine the cars driving/handling character, then how does dampers come in to play?

Example, if i have super super hard spring rates, and i set my dampers to softest, i will still feel the car being damn stiff right? Because the spring doesnt compress coz is too hard and that will lead to all the vibration and jolt being transfer to the chassis.....No??
Or the other way round. Soft springs with super hard damping. The dampers will prevent the springs to compress thus the car will still be stiff.:hmmmm::hmmmm:

With super hard springs you got no absorption at all, at least with soft springs and hard dampers there is some absorption....

 

[marv3]

Youtube "Engineering explained" and read up on his spring vs coilover explanation. It talks about the differences between soft springs and hard springs and why hard springs are bad for daily use.

A track will have absolutely flat surface. I don't need bodyroll or whatever, I just need the car to be flat and gripping the corners. Hence the maximum hardest settings. On our rubbish tar roads, that setting would rattle the crap out of everything in the car. So turn all the way down for softer ride which made a huge difference (but it's worth noting that even at softer settings, stock OEM suspension is still more comfortable).

---------- Post added at 10:14 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------



Go watch that youtube video I recommended. Springs determine the force your wheel will have on the road. The dampers will determine how fast or slow that force will react and in some ways indirectly affect the force on the road.

I have search for the video in the Engineering Explain channel. No videos on SPRING vs COILLOVERS. But i did watch his other videos on Suspension and Coilvers. I kinda get it now:hmmmm::hmmmm:

But then again, if i have a damper that can be adjusted, why is there a need for hard springs? I mean, i can get the same stiffness effect by just tuning the damping to maximum hardness with the soft springs right? Say a [6kg spring + maximum hard damping] vs [12kg spring + maximum hard damping]. I mean, at this setting, the dampers would not have allowed or minimally allowed bound and rebound of the suspension right? :hmmmm:

And one of the video, the guy did mentioned something about "velocity" damping thingy. All coilovers have that feature?:hmmmm:

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

http://www.carthrottle.com/post/engineering-explained-how-suspension-works-and-upgrading-to-coilovers/

Read here xD

 

[marv3]

http://www.carthrottle.com/post/engineering-explained-how-suspension-works-and-upgrading-to-coilovers/

Read here xD

Just saw it during lunch. LOL

 

[vr2turbo]

I have search for the video in the Engineering Explain channel. No videos on SPRING vs COILLOVERS. But i did watch his other videos on Suspension and Coilvers. I kinda get it now:hmmmm::hmmmm:

But then again, if i have a damper that can be adjusted, why is there a need for hard springs? I mean, i can get the same stiffness effect by just tuning the damping to maximum hardness with the soft springs right? Say a [6kg spring + maximum hard damping] vs [12kg spring + maximum hard damping]. I mean, at this setting, the dampers would not have allowed or minimally allowed bound and rebound of the suspension right? :hmmmm:

And one of the video, the guy did mentioned something about "velocity" damping thingy. All coilovers have that feature?:hmmmm:

Soft spring and hard damping, means you will still bounce first round before the hard damper dampens the bounce. Hard springs means no big bounce at all.
Still will say is your priorities, what you want out of the springs and dampers.
For daily drive most wants a balance and able to adjust when needed....

 

[Izso]

The lesser the travel of the spring and damper, the less grip you'll have on normal surfaces. Ideal for superflat track surfaces but for normal roads you're losing out on grip.

 

[vr2turbo]

The lesser the travel of the spring and damper, the less grip you'll have on normal surfaces. Ideal for superflat track surfaces but for normal roads you're losing out on grip.

Yeah! Years ago, mechanic and I, tried one modded car super hard suspension. In one corner there was a slight bump, the car fish tail immediately

 

[marv3]

Hmmmmm....Custom or Adjustables.....BC perhaps?? Any comments?

Was initially thinking about custom making one from RCS. I mean, save the hassle of tuning it yourself. They calculate everything and then custom a set base on what your want. And they have that velocity thingy, which changes the damping depending on the speed you are going. Pretty cool.....

 

[g4i8y0t]

I heard RCS has closed their business... :hmmmm:

 

[vr2turbo]

There is a thread on it, seems the workers took over and now is RDS......