K20 Sibling Battle - DC5, EP3, CL7

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Some of you guys would have probaly seen this vid, but its a really interesting video, especially some of the conclusions made by the drift king and the gang...

Enjoy and maybe we'll discuss... :driver:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB5AqAY5EpU&sns=em
 
A couple of my observations....

The EP was slightly quicker of the line despite being heavier by 30kg and having a slightly less powerful engine.... Q : Are the ratios in the lower gear different between the two?

Note how it was concluded that the DC5 suspension was harder to tune. I remember Ichishima Tatsuru saying that when the DC5 was first launched, it was initially very-very hard for Spoon to find a way to improve its handling... thats how good it was stock. So, don't simply play-play with the DC5 suspension setup....

Biggest suprise for me was the suspension tuning potential of the CL7. In the modified battle, despite have a weight disadvantage, its was just as fast as the DC5... Q : Does the CL7 have double-wishbone all round ka? Is this were its advantage lies?

Also note the Phase Accord R and how messing with gear ratios just messed up the car's performance...
 
A couple of my observations....

The EP was slightly quicker of the line despite being heavier by 30kg and having a slightly less powerful engine.... Q : Are the ratios in the lower gear different between the two?

Note how it was concluded that the DC5 suspension was harder to tune. I remember Ichishima Tatsuru saying that when the DC5 was first launched, it was initially very-very hard for Spoon to find a way to improve its handling... thats how good it was stock. So, don't simply play-play with the DC5 suspension setup....

Biggest suprise for me was the suspension tuning potential of the CL7. In the modified battle, despite have a weight disadvantage, its was just as fast as the DC5... Q : Does the CL7 have double-wishbone all round ka? Is this were its advantage lies?

Also note the Phase Accord R and how messing with gear ratios just messed up the car's performance...



Thats right, messing up with DC5 suspension and when u are not used to the car's behaviour (less practice too :biggrin:) when cornering definately will result to a painful result. It can oversteer at the lease expected turns. :banghead:
 
based on the gear ratio table below i think the siblings have pretty much the same ratio with each other (except for FD2R and EDM EP3!). most probably its hatchback chassis contribute to the quickness compared to the sedan and coupe.

K-SeriesTransmissionTablev3-28-08re.jpg


the DC5 macpherson strut suspension system is hard to tune....compared to the double wishbone and multilink ends on a CL7. like u said lan..even Ichishima scrapped their plan to produce the Spoon suspension for DC5 after 2 years of testing just because they couldn't get the perfect setup. so many things need to be done to the entire suspension system if you wish to customize your setup eg: roll centre adjusters are needed when the car go lower then it should be, tie-rod ends need to be replaced or shorten if you wanna tweak the front camber to the max (this can cause tie rods and interrelatedly stereng rack to have shorter lifespan!).

Roadwise i think both mcpherson and double wishboner perform the same but when it comes to tuning and customization, mcpherson is 'simply complicated' while the double wishbone has more advantage.. one example is that due to the length of the upper and lower arms, vertical suspension movement will result in an increase in negative camber without having to be 'forced' like the mcpherson. meaning the tyre contact patch on road surface is better .. and due to the rigidity of the double wishbone system, the steering and wheel alignment will be maintained even under a lot of stress...unlike the mcpherson, a slight 'terbabas' off the track or running off a pothole the entire alignment can go haywire. the DC5 owners here can testify to that :D
 
Spoon doesn't offer full adjustable suspensions for DC5 & EP3, but they do offer springs sets that lowers the car by 25mm (DC5)/ 40mm (EP3) from stock and uprated spring rates
 
Double wishbone and macpherson strut both has pro and cons. But on handlingwise, double wishbone is superior due to its higher camber gain. A straight forward definition of Camber gain is: increasing dynamic camber with respect to suspension travel in compression (how much camber is achieved as the car rolls). The value of camber gains are different from one car to another. In average, double wishbone camber gain is twice that of macpherson strut. So, thats why ef, ek, eg, dc2, etc can be lowered and still good in cornering.
Try lower a macpherson strut cars like dc5, waja, gen-2, satria, satria neo, etc without setting back the roll centre & bumpsteer and you'll feel the handling is not up to standard.

Being able to have higher camber gain means you do not need to set your static camber much, as the suspension linkage will make your car to have more camber dynamically.
Thats why you see track car which uses macpherson strut, usually their camber is set very2 negatively high. This is because macpherson strut cars have low camber gain. So, they counter it by putting more static camber.
 
What about Macpherson vs DWBs from a manufacturing cost point of view?? Anybody know? I guess this would also be a factor that takes play into the decision of which route to take when building a car...

---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 03:32 PM ----------

For comparing tuned K-engined hondas, I like this clip the best.....i guess it proves the saying "old honda's don't die, they get faster":biggrin:...*hint for minivan...


YouTube- VTEC CLUB K20A æ*載マシンãƒãƒˆãƒ« HONDA CIVIC FIT INTEGLA

hint taken... miahahahahahaha :thefinger: ko suke ah ade geng :biggrin:
 
What about Macpherson vs DWBs from a manufacturing cost point of view?? Anybody know? I guess this would also be a factor that takes play into the decision of which route to take when building a car...

---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 03:32 PM ----------



hint taken... miahahahahahaha :thefinger: ko suke ah ade geng :biggrin:


Production wise Double Wishbones cost more due to more parts for the suspension assembly & chassis reinforcement of the upper area (top wishone area). Hence probably why honda dropped the DWB for macphersons in the EP/S & FD Civic after its use in the previous 3 generations.

:biggrin: mestila suka....hehe
 
In terms of cost in general DWB is more expensive than macpherson. But this is not the determining factor in selecting what type of suspension to use coz there are four factors: Packaging, Performance and function, Cost, Marketing.
 
Double wishbone and macpherson strut both has pro and cons. But on handlingwise, double wishbone is superior due to its higher camber gain. A straight forward definition of Camber gain is: increasing dynamic camber with respect to suspension travel in compression (how much camber is achieved as the car rolls). The value of camber gains are different from one car to another. In average, double wishbone camber gain is twice that of macpherson strut. So, thats why ef, ek, eg, dc2, etc can be lowered and still good in cornering.
Try lower a macpherson strut cars like dc5, waja, gen-2, satria, satria neo, etc without setting back the roll centre & bumpsteer and you'll feel the handling is not up to standard.

Being able to have higher camber gain means you do not need to set your static camber much, as the suspension linkage will make your car to have more camber dynamically.
Thats why you see track car which uses macpherson strut, usually their camber is set very2 negatively high. This is because macpherson strut cars have low camber gain. So, they counter it by putting more static camber.

Soo means that in simple terms, it is best to maintain your DC5's height as per normal standard height and camber closer or more to the max setting?
 
Soo means that in simple terms, it is best to maintain your DC5's height as per normal standard height and camber closer or more to the max setting?

Exactly, in simple terms. But, for dc5 the stock shocks, springs, antirollbar,tyres, camber settings are not good enough to be competitive, so you need to get a good set of coilover. Try the standard ride height with a good coilover and more -ve camber up front on the track and you'll be surprised.

You can lower to maximize the capability of the car but you need to upgrade more in suspension parts and find a good suspension setting for the car. One reason to lower your car is to reduce aerodynamic resistance to gain higher vehicle speed.
 
Exactly, in simple terms. But, for dc5 the stock shocks, springs, antirollbar,tyres, camber settings are not good enough to be competitive, so you need to get a good set of coilover. Try the standard ride height with a good coilover and more -ve camber up front on the track and you'll be surprised.

You can lower to maximize the capability of the car but you need to upgrade more in suspension parts and find a good suspension setting for the car. One reason to lower your car is to reduce aerodynamic resistance to gain higher vehicle speed.

Aparently soo, becoz earlier stage when i just had my DC5 and it was installed with a good set of coilovers, with the camber setting at -3 but the height was lowered at few CM, the handling was good. But when i re-set back the cambers to normal standstill degree BUT with the same ride height, the handling goes hairwire an a lot of oversteering. Almost skid off at genting uphill.

Heard abt it before on the ride height and suspension geometry, but i thought it was applied to Civic EP3, not the integra.
 
Back to topic...I got the chance to drive an ep3 few years back, I would say, 'stock vs stock' ep3 handles better than dc5. Haven't got the chance to drive a stock fd2r though.

---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------

But ep3 eps steering's response, effort and linearity characteristic are quite poor compared to the dc5 hydraulic steering.
 
But ep3 eps steering's response, effort and linearity characteristic are quite poor compared to the dc5 hydraulic steering.

oh yes... that has been the main criticism of the EP3, its EPS... good for city driving, but doesn't provide the driver with enuff feedback...

Another main difference from a drivers perspective is the gear lever position, most reports i've read say they love it, and i'd agree i love it there on the dash console :driver:... But what i've generally gathered here in Msia, most people tend to not quite like it, prefering a lover position like the one in the DC5...

As for the FDR, I've never actually driven an FDR, only sat in one many-many times, and i think the driving position is superb...
 
But ep3 eps steering's response, effort and linearity characteristic are quite poor compared to the dc5 hydraulic steering.

u should try ep3 2004 FL model. honda updated EPS with quicker steering+suspension settings to overcome pre FL EPS lack of response. IMO they did quite a good job the outcome almost same par with dc5..
 
the tuned dc5 use inverted tie rod end..... but the spring rate are too hard for that track....

about the suspension cost. i also heard that Macpherson cost are higher becoz it use more bushing and parts. dont know it is true or not.
 
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