Insulation!!

[defcon1]

Now, we all know the "recommended" soundproofing and damping materials sold for cars like Raammat, Superlon and what's that other bloody expensive one...

Basically, I'm not convinced. I know that these have been specifically designed for automotive applications, but this was not what the materials started out as. Bitumen sheets were originally used in the West as building insulation and damping materials. Over time, the low melting point characteristics of bitumen was modified by combining it with polimers...

We need a sound insulation expert, and I think we have one in the club. My idea would be to test some home roofing and wall insulation materials in our cars to find affordable alternatives. Superlon, for example, is nothing more than compact polyurethane foam sheets. BUT you need to be in the building industry to know where to buy it in bulk...

Any ideas and comments welcome...

 

[ongteckweng]

Now, we all know the "recommended" soundproofing and damping materials sold for cars like Raammat, Superlon and what's that other bloody expensive one...

Basically, I'm not convinced. I know that these have been specifically designed for automotive applications, but this was not what the materials started out as. Bitumen sheets were originally used in the West as building insulation and damping materials. Over time, the low melting point characteristics of bitumen was modified by combining it with polimers...

We need a sound insulation expert, and I think we have one in the club. My idea would be to test some home roofing and wall insulation materials in our cars to find affordable alternatives. Superlon, for example, is nothing more than compact polyurethane foam sheets. BUT you need to be in the building industry to know where to buy it in bulk...

Any ideas and comments welcome...

i think stephen can help...where is he lately??

 

[defcon1]

Hmmm...he tried to call me once...but I was in a meeting and I forgot to call him back. Got his phone no.?

 

[honggas]

Now, we all know the "recommended" soundproofing and damping materials sold for cars like Raammat, Superlon and what's that other bloody expensive one...

Basically, I'm not convinced. I know that these have been specifically designed for automotive applications, but this was not what the materials started out as. Bitumen sheets were originally used in the West as building insulation and damping materials. Over time, the low melting point characteristics of bitumen was modified by combining it with polimers...

We need a sound insulation expert, and I think we have one in the club. My idea would be to test some home roofing and wall insulation materials in our cars to find affordable alternatives. Superlon, for example, is nothing more than compact polyurethane foam sheets. BUT you need to be in the building industry to know where to buy it in bulk...

Any ideas and comments welcome...

I think I can get the buy in bulk sorted out, my wife is in building industry

But don't really have contact for the sound insulation expert.

 

[defcon1]

Hey Honggas...could you please what options there are for :

a) self-adhesive bitumen insulation sheets (I think they're used as roofing underlay, looks like Raammat and comes in rolls.

b) self-adhesive high density pu foam sheets of roughly 3mm - 5mm thickness.

Both are used as soundproofing/sound-damping materials in buildings.

 

[ongteckweng]

Hmmm...he tried to call me once...but I was in a meeting and I forgot to call him back. Got his phone no.?

sorry...dont have wor...
i remember reading some article regarding sound proofing...bitumen n high density pu foam sheest reduce different range of sound...but i forget which is which la...one is for high frequency and another for low frequency...duno right or wrong...

 

[defcon1]

Bitumen reduces high frequency...PU lowers low frequency...

 

[honggas]

Hey Honggas...could you please what options there are for :

a) self-adhesive bitumen insulation sheets (I think they're used as roofing underlay, looks like Raammat and comes in rolls.

b) self-adhesive high density pu foam sheets of roughly 3mm - 5mm thickness.

Both are used as soundproofing/sound-damping materials in buildings.

Will do, however I believe that you'll get an answer soonest on Monday evening.

Deffy ... so many DIY project .. after this can open Pimp My Cefiro lah, I'll be one loyal customer

 

[defcon1]

Lol...takes a lot of time to do a car properly...

One customer...no matter how good and loyal...cannot survive lar...

Btw...tomorrow, I am going to see an A/C specialist supply shop...one of those that supply A/C specialists doing building installations. The DO have materials like Insuflex and bitumen...have to test the melting point of the bitumen to determine if it will work for most parts of the car. Firewall, roof and bonnets, I am hesitant, but floorboards should be ok as the max temp a car can reach even in hot sun should not be higher than 50 - 55 degrees C.

Dynamat and Raammat have their advantage of heat resistance. But NOT ALL parts of the car reach temps that require them. So, we might be able to save money on other parts and only spend on the more critical parts of the car.

 

[honggas]

Lol...takes a lot of time to do a car properly...

One customer...no matter how good and loyal...cannot survive lar...

Btw...tomorrow, I am going to see an A/C specialist supply shop...one of those that supply A/C specialists doing building installations. The DO have materials like Insuflex and bitumen...have to test the melting point of the bitumen to determine if it will work for most parts of the car. Firewall, roof and bonnets, I am hesitant, but floorboards should be ok as the max temp a car can reach even in hot sun should not be higher than 50 - 55 degrees C.

Dynamat and Raammat have their advantage of heat resistance. But NOT ALL parts of the car reach temps that require them. So, we might be able to save money on other parts and only spend on the more critical parts of the car.

Ok ok .. let's rename it to "Let Deffy Pimp Your Ride"

Btw, just wondering on this insulation project of yours Deffy, if the aim is to soundproof the car, what about noise that is "good" like horn from other vehicle ?

 

[defcon1]

Ok ok .. let's rename it to "Let Deffy Pimp Your Ride"

Btw, just wondering on this insulation project of yours Deffy, if the aim is to soundproof the car, what about noise that is "good" like horn from other vehicle ?

Um...objective is not to soundproof...but to dampen unwanted noises...like what's bouncing off the road back into the car...engine bay etc...

Horns shouldn't be affected cos they come through the windows and windscreen. Besides...when Deffy's on the road...normally other cars dash for cover...

...that is...if they know what's good for them...

 

[defcon1]

Discovery!!

I've discovered two of the secrets of Dynamat and Raammat.

a) They are simply modified Bitumen compound i.e. Bitumen with a dispersal of a polimer like polypropelene or styrene butadiene styrene etc. The polimers do not chemically bind with the bitumen but their presense in the mix changes the physical properties of the material. The average softening point of these materials are about 80 degrees C. The same material is used in roofing, waterproofing and as floor underlays.

b) Heat resistance. Part of Dynamat and Raammat's heat resistance is due to the type of polymer mixed in. But, I believe, in majority, the heat resistance is a factor of the aluminium layer applied. Remember...aluminium loses heat faster than most other materials and that is why heat-sinks are made from it, and also why aluminium engines cool down so fast. Also, it is highly reflective, so it will reflect away heat and prevent heat buildup.

So...presenting Defcon's sonic neutralizing sound dampening material...

a) One layer of normal bitumen sheet (roofing grade) or flashing strip.

b) One layer of normal al foil that can be bought from any hardware store.

I found some 4" flashing strip in the local hardware shop. Didn't pay attention to the price, but I think I'll do some experimenting this weekend.

Wish me luck!

 

[honggas]

I've discovered two of the secrets of Dynamat and Raammat.

a) They are simply modified Bitumen compound i.e. Bitumen with a dispersal of a polimer like polypropelene or styrene butadiene styrene etc. The polimers do not chemically bind with the bitumen but their presense in the mix changes the physical properties of the material. The average softening point of these materials are about 80 degrees C. The same material is used in roofing, waterproofing and as floor underlays.

b) Heat resistance. Part of Dynamat and Raammat's heat resistance is due to the type of polymer mixed in. But, I believe, in majority, the heat resistance is a factor of the aluminium layer applied. Remember...aluminium loses heat faster than most other materials and that is why heat-sinks are made from it, and also why aluminium engines cool down so fast. Also, it is highly reflective, so it will reflect away heat and prevent heat buildup.

So...presenting Defcon's sonic neutralizing sound dampening material...

a) One layer of normal bitumen sheet (roofing grade) or flashing strip.

b) One layer of normal al foil that can be bought from any hardware store.

I found some 4" flashing strip in the local hardware shop. Didn't pay attention to the price, but I think I'll do some experimenting this weekend.

Wish me luck!

Good Luck

Btw, Didnt you plan to also use PU sheet?

 

[ongteckweng]

Good Luck

Btw, Didnt you plan to also use PU sheet?

deffy...if everyone like u...i think all the car acc shop and manufacturer close shop...

 

[defcon1]

deffy...if everyone like u...i think all the car acc shop and manufacturer close shop...

Heh...they always have the option to buy me off...

What irritates me is the amount of BS they spout selling, what is basically, glorified roof waterproofing sheets...

The chemical nature of bitumen is not difficult to understand. By definition...

"Also called asphalt or tar, bitumen is the brown or black viscous residue from the vacuum distillation of crude petroleum. It also occurs in nature as asphalt “lakes” and “tar sands.” It consists of high molecular weight hydrocarbons and minor amounts of sulfur and nitrogen compounds."

In other words...the crap leftovers from the fractional distillation of crude oil. So, how does it feel to pay so much more for the "crap" than gasoline, which is the "cream" of fractional distillation?

From the sticky tar...they mix in fillers that don't alter it's chemistry in any way, but provide some "binding" properties to the material converting it into sticky sheets and such for other uses...the way adding sand to cement allows you to form it, whereas if you add water to pure cement, you get a semi-liquid paste that will not hold it form.

So, the so called "modified bitumens" are nothing more than bitumen mixed with powdered plastics. The same or similar stuff is used to plug leaks in your roof, or waterproof roofs in western countries, and hold stones together to make highways.

The stiffness or hardness of bitumen is controlled by the addition of light oils. And that's why Ong's friend, the one who had it melt down in his door, made a mistake. The bitumen he used was for plugging holes in AC conduits...nothing wrong with it except that it's a softer grade of bitumen. Even then, it would have worked if he had kept the car cool long enough for the oils to evaporate off.

I bought some "flashing tape" from the hardware shop just now. UK made stuff for waterproofing roofs and gutters. The reason I trust the Euro stuff is because they are manufactured to very strict ISO standards. So, if they say it softens at 80 degrees C, it will soften at 80 degrees C. Since I bought a small amount, they cost me, in square feet terms, as much as Raammat. But I only bought enough for experimentation. If it works, then we can scour the city for a cheap source of roofing bitumin tape or sheets, and I'll teach you how to manage it in your car.

 

[honggas]

Do let us know of the result

P/s: Deffy .. I think you should open a college

 

[defcon1]

Heh..."The School of Crock"...

Definition...

"Especially in engineering, a crock is a botched attempt or design to achieve something. An automobile with intentionally designed square wheels would be a crock."

 

[honggas]

Heh..."The School of Crock"...

Definition...

"Especially in engineering, a crock is a botched attempt or design to achieve something. An automobile with intentionally designed square wheels would be a crock."

 

[ongteckweng]

deffy...i still have some raamaat left...want? sell u cheap cheap...

 

[defcon1]

Can also...how much you got left?...