EG9 - Stock fuel pump sufficient for track?

[ferio94eg9]

EG9 - Stock fuel pump sufficient for track? faulty fuel pump,coil distributor or etc?

Hi guys...

Last Sunday went for an open track day at SIC. Before that I've upgraded/modded my EG9 quite a lot from engine, brakes, suspension, rims & tires. However, after doing about 5 laps, there's a feel like the throttle got no response as of there is no fuel supply. Then the engine will stalled. Try to start a few times but failed. So, need to tow by a SIC jeep to the pit.

After 20 minutes and the car getting colder, the engine can be started. Went back to the track, and after 6-7 laps, the problem came again. Engine dead and been tow back to the pit. Been told by my foremen that maybe its related to the fuel pump. Recommended to change to DC2R fuel pump. Is it true the above symptom is due to the fuel pump..... Hope u guys can shed some info/experience regarding my problem.

Thanks.

 

[shiroitenshi]

Walbro, not that expensive, and quite lasting. 255lph is a bit overkill, but that seems to be the only model brought in. Even I had to settle for the 255lph model.

You sure it's not misfiring? fuel pressure confirm no pressure when under no start situation?

 

[ferio94eg9]

Walbro, not that expensive, and quite lasting. 255lph is a bit overkill, but that seems to be the only model brought in. Even I had to settle for the 255lph model.

You sure it's not misfiring? fuel pressure confirm no pressure when under no start situation?

When to know if my car got problem with misfiring? Noticed that my foremen did retard the ignition after 2nd time it happened. But during that time, my session is almost over n only able to take just one more lap..... So, dunno if the prob will come again. If I settle with the 255lph, do I need to retune my vafc2?

 

[shiroitenshi]

When to know if my car got problem with misfiring? Noticed that my foremen did retard the ignition after 2nd time it happened. But during that time, my session is almost over n only able to take just one more lap..... So, dunno if the prob will come again. If I settle with the 255lph, do I need to retune my vafc2?

well misfiring usually results in lost power, in my experience, it feels like you press throttle but nothing happens, like a gap in power. without spark, no combustion, thus no power. Can be due to many things, once happened to me and I had heck of a time troubleshooting, even changed distributor at one point but same thing, turns out it's the plug cables, lol. Sometimes the simplest problem is the least thought about.

To check for spark is best if you did it on track that day when you got the no start problem. I usually do this:
1) unplug injectors to avoid flooding the engine during test crank later, or if got fuel pump kill switch, use that.

2) either take out a spare plug or remove one from any four of the cylinders, and put in on one of the cables. touch the spark plug end to one of the bolts on the valve cover.

SAFETY NOTE: Make sure you don't put your hands anywhere near the metal part of the plug, 40KV (around there) is not pleasant travelling up your arm. Wear gloves if possible or anything non conductive to hold the cable. I got once where the cable was cracked at the end, and got 40KV (estimated, didn't measure lol). I think I almost blacked out and fried some of my brain cells in the process. , since then, take no chances, I'll use my shirt to hold the cable if I can't find a cloth/glove.

3) ask someone to crank the engine unless you have super long arms to reach the ignition switch from the front of your car, or just put it somewhere it won't fall off but still has the end contacting the block for grounding and crank it yourself and observe if got sparking. If got, then no start is due to fuel problem. If no spark, then viola! you found why your car isn't starting. < basic knowledge if you drove cars in the 80s :P

Fuel pump faulty usually results in gradual leaning out of the engine, so car feels heavier as fuel pressure drops and injectors pump out less fuel, but don't think it stalls like you mentioned.

Spark plugs could be an issue, but haven't had misfiring due to spark plugs (I change them about once every two years, regardless of condition.), but since they're not too expensive, run 7s. They're colder so probably better for track abuse. You can learn how to read plugs, but too lengthy to mention here, enough said that you have to shut off engine right after a certain rev point (depends on where in the rev point you want to read it) to read it properly (note that you might, depending on your car condition at that time lose vacuum assist on your brake booster, so brakes will be a bit heavy and you won't be able to stop in the short distance required). So plug reading is usually done at slow speeds/low gears/on dyno. I don't really recommend this unless you know what you're doing since it's quite dangerous if you do it on street or places with crowds/cars.

As for the pump.
255lph is the max flow rate, which doesn't really matter, since we got the fuel regulator to maintain the pressure at 2.5-4 bar (whatever you set it too), just runs at lower duty (not sure about this, theory says so, but never had an opportunity to actually log fuel pump duty cycles on a stock ECU honda. Microtech apparently can set fuel pump duty, but I've only had limited experience with them, and I only used two numbers, 0% and 100%)

Anyway, so as long as you have the same fuel pressure, fuel delivered should be the same, thus no need retune.

Hope that helps. Some mechs can't follow you to the track, so basic troubleshooting best you learn a bit so you don't get stuck like you did at SIC.

 

[ferio94eg9]

yeah, like what u said I've feels like lost of power before the car engine stalled. btw, currently i'm running plug rated 6 + h22a injector + fuel regulator + cable plug NGK R09. All items just being change except for plug & the fuel pump.

gonna enter one more track day next month n see if the prob does occurred again. I'm planning to change the plug n also the fuel pump.

 

[stingg]

Car is full tank or half tank when it happened?

 

[ferio94eg9]

Car is full tank or half tank when it happened?

1st - 3/4
2nd - half tank...

 

[shiroitenshi]

still the tank wasn't anywhere empty, hard to say what's the problem since you didn't do a spark test under no start condition. Just take note of how to do it, and hopefully you can pinpoint the problem once and for all. If you track your car, get an oil pres and fuel press gauge and install them inside the car for safety and easier troubleshooting. Defi has those single din triple meters with oil and fuel press and water temp I think.

 

[ferio94eg9]

Thx Shiro for the so called "spark test under no start condition" guide... About those Defi gauge, shall be consider as I go along my way and what to upgrade after the sessions. what that is more important shall be tackle 1st... currently just getting to know the car behavior at track and to learn to tackle SIC corners the right way.

 

[ferio94eg9]

Went for a check up this morning for 2nd opinion.... Was told by the foremen that he suspected the distributor coil might be the cause. He also said that iridium rate 6 should be sufficent for track insted of 7. Currently I'm on platinum 6.

 

[shiroitenshi]

yep, distributor is usually culprit for no spark or misfiring issues. In this case, not really sure, you have to replace the coil and see how it goes. Sometimes igniter, since the igniter age already very old for most second hand distributors. Lastly could be the the pesky cam position/tcd sensors. I bought new distributor a while back, but if this spoils, I'm definitely switching to coil on plugs. Not that the distributor system is bad, but just that even new ones, are old stock and likely quite old.

If your plugs isn't overheating then 6 is an okay option. I've used them before, and while they do work, I'll just go one plug range colder since it doesn't really affect anything and I get pretty good plug readings out of them brownish and clean without fouling at high rpm, depends on your preferences as the way I see it unless you're running high comp (more than 11s, since honda apparently does it),

Hot standard plugs may also increase risk of detonation.

Doesn't mean you should go buy no.10 plugs though. colder plugs fouls easily if they're not hot enough since they can't burn away fuel deposits that collect at the tip. I'd say oil, but that only happens on two strokers, like those kapchai bikes, where using a hotter plug is preferable to colder ones.

If you want to decide for yourself whether want to use 6 or 7s, the best time when you pull on the dyno next time, turn of engine at max rpm, let the car coast to a stop on the rollers, take out the plug and see.

How to read plugs:
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqread2.asp
Take note that the colours and plug tip pics may be a little off from real life examples, so you should get help from old school mechanics who know how to read plugs. If your mech says 6 is enough, I won't argue. he knows more about your engine than I do, since he probably has taken out your plugs and taken a look and observe that the insulator and electrodes are okay even after your track session.

I'm using 7s with 11.0-11.5 comp with my old b16a before this (flat valves, single layer gasket), and I got the nice brownish tinge on the tip, which means it's just right. Most of the plugs I put on my other family member's car after I use (no wastage, lol). The b16a never died, just retired when I went with B20B.

 

[ferio94eg9]

If your plugs isn't overheating then 6 is an okay option. I've used them before, and while they do work, I'll just go one plug range colder since it doesn't really affect anything and I get pretty good plug readings out of them brownish and clean without fouling at high rpm, depends on your preferences as the way I see it unless you're running high comp (more than 11s, since honda apparently does it),

yup... currently i'm running comp = 12. (head porting, thin metal gasket, b16a piston)

How to read plugs:
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqread2.asp
Take note that the colours and plug tip pics may be a little off from real life examples, so you should get help from old school mechanics who know how to read plugs. If your mech says 6 is enough, I won't argue. he knows more about your engine than I do, since he probably has taken out your plugs and taken a look and observe that the insulator and electrodes are okay even after your track session.

very informative link there.... yup, noticed that one of my plug can be categorize as normal (1st picture in the link)... no overheated.

 

[shiroitenshi]

Don't think its 12 cr. Even with single layer oem gasket, you won't get 12cr with b16a pistons.
Unless you skim head to the max limit or stroke it. Ehehehe. 12cr is quite high for regular fuel imo and frankly, from my experience, 12cr with regular fuel, you'd keep retarding timing and start having heat issues. Then comes the aluminium double/triple layer radiator, the racing thermostat, and the fan switch. For me, I consider 12cr to be the point of diminishing returns.

highest i decided to go with my b16a was 11+, flat valves, single layer oem gasket. Based lined at 163whp, with 11+cr, 175whp@8K. (dastek dyno, the crank hp is 187 first run and 200 respectively. the dyno chart is buried somewhere in zth. ROFL, some were wondering if it were a stroked engine. heh.) Stock b16a cams, was supposed to try ctr cams later on, but got busy and finally didn't get to it at all. rev limited to 8.7K, that 200rpm is the buffer zone, so I don't hit the rev limiter when shifting at 8-8.5Krpm.

As long as the electrodes and insulator look okay, then i guess 6 plugs is good enough then.

I personally don't think 12+cr is suitable for cars using regular petrol. Sure its easy horsepower, but good luck making the engine last.

 

[ferio94eg9]

Shiro... u've got PM.

 

[ferio94eg9]

where to get new DB? how do it cost?

 

[shiroitenshi]

where to get new DB? how do it cost?

DB? what's the un-abbreviated name for that?

If you mean distributor, I got mine for like RM900 new.

 

[ferio94eg9]

just to update... went for a 3rd opinion (also another foremen at AU3). he did mention about the fuel pump and its relay. he recommended to use direct instead currently via the relay. what is the -ve part if bypass the relay? did mentioned about the 2nd opinion about the coil, he said if coil prob, then the Check Engine Light (CEL) must have light on. in my case no CEL.....

 

[shiroitenshi]

just to update... went for a 3rd opinion (also another foremen at AU3). he did mention about the fuel pump and its relay. he recommended to use direct instead currently via the relay. what is the -ve part if bypass the relay? did mentioned about the 2nd opinion about the coil, he said if coil prob, then the Check Engine Light (CEL) must have light on. in my case no CEL.....

Same thing I think. Not sure about the drawback. I do know people usually do it if their ECU is not grounding the fuel pump relay properly.

Thing is, if intermittent problem, the coil won't throw a check light. Anyway, there's plenty of coils that have no issues while normal driving, but at high rpm, keep misfiring. Anyway without testing, hard to say what actually caused the problem, from what you say, it does sound like misfire, since I had that same problem. When next you have the no start issue, immediately check for spark. That's the best time you can check for issues with igniter or coil.