BAR found guilty of cheating....

[[Joc]]

lets say if you know that your competitor is not abiding the rules, are you gonna shut up?
BAR made a mistake, and they got penalised.
Ferrari cant use it's "politics" or influential power to make BAR's car underweight.
But they could influence the organisers to check on cars.

If you follow the rules, you wont be punnished, right?

read this
http://www.formula1.com/race/news/2971/736.html

ok.... i get your drift, but i don't think you get mine. You see, it's the stance, the way FIA and Ferrari, as a united team... actually more of a bloody triad gang, bullying the other 9 teams BECAUSE they don't want to join in with them. BULLYING = making all this chaos, disturbance, publicity to humiliate the other 9 teams, make them scared of them with their authority/power by using the rules and punish them, and then slowly watch one by one crawl back to them to start a new Formula 1 agreement for 2008. Understand? Ferrari CAN'T make BAR cars be illegal if they have not done anything... yes, that is ur point, i understand.

But you see, BAR is a team with very good innovation. Do you remember their other system that got banned? The Front Torque Transfer system, some call it the FTT system, was banned from use although it was used for one race. What teams do is that whenever they have something new and they are not sure, they ASK the FIA first if can use or not, then only put on their car. Formula 1 has a "technical working group", in which all teams have a technical representative, and they discuss what new things can and can not be used.

Back to my point, a direct quote from an article "The FIA Court of Appeal found BAR-Honda guilty of “a highly regrettable negligence and lack of transparency”.
Now you see? They are NOT CHEATING, the court did not find them cheaters!

Another quote
"The FIA had known about its fuel system for several races, and that the fuel in the collector tank was necessary for the car’s operation and was therefore not capable of being used as ballast. “The FIA knew we had a new device in the gasoline tank,” said Iida(Honda spokesman). “Without it the car won’t move."

But look! Wow, the whole BAR-Honda name has been tarnished!! Everyone in the world, with the aid of mass media, now thinks BAR-Honda are cheaters, including yourself, mind you. BUT THEY ARE NOT, the court did not find them cheating!!! BUT THEY STILL GOT 2 RACE BANS....for negligence... actually its for fukks rite? WHY? Because they are part of the new breakaway series. That is my point when i was starting this thread.

 

[[Joc]]

ohhh yeah, and just another note then, you can call ferrari BIG FAT cheaters too cause they've cheated before.
remember their.... "oh no, sorry, they're now legal bargeboards already since its ferrari having them on the car" in Sepang '99. ;)
aaahhhh.... the scent of stinking red and dirty politics.

 

[[Joc]]

oh yeah and a push for Michael Shoeman EVERY BLOODY time he spins into the gravel but NOT FOR ANYONE ELSE. poor old Heidfield. Happened in Australia, happened in Nurburgring... happened soooooooo many times i can't remember.... but nemind nemind... FERRARI RULZZZ.... YEAAAAAAA **behaving and jumping like a barbarian with red,white and green afro hair running around** :D
hahaha... do you see those jokers at the races? especially the european races... they've got this bigggg afro hairdo painted in italian colours! clowns.... all in good fun tho..... :)

 

[jiggly_head]

oh yeah and a push for Michael Shoeman EVERY BLOODY time he spins into the gravel but NOT FOR ANYONE ELSE. poor old Heidfield. Happened in Australia, happened in Nurburgring... happened soooooooo many times i can't remember.... but nemind nemind... FERRARI RULZZZ.... YEAAAAAAA **behaving and jumping like a barbarian with red,white and green afro hair running around** :D
hahaha... do you see those jokers at the races? especially the european races... they've got this bigggg afro hairdo painted in italian colours! clowns.... all in good fun tho..... :)

you only get a push when your car is stationary in a dangerous position on the track, where another car might hit you. and i love reading your conspiracy theories. at least its something to laugh at before going to class.

 

[[Joc]]

Hahhaha...... my theories... actually not mine... all widespread around, i'm sure u'll read it in the next F1 magazine if u buy them..
and so u reckon heidfield was NOT in a dangerous position?

 

[zero4]

ferrari is the bestlah, they can do whatever they want in F1, others can choose to FOLLOW or being NEGLECTED....'big thumbs up' for ferrari, i just 'love' the reds....

 

[leacare]

hate ferrari...thank goodness they suck now

 

[koolspyda]

cheat?

well, of course no. well, not intentionally.

In the corporate world of motorsports, one dont refer it as "cheating". :)
IT HIGHLY COMPETITIVE MOTORSPORTS. Winning and placements are everything, no longer just to make numbers.

BAr Honda is also under pressure to show some results, given to the failed earlier races. No, I dont think BAR Honda intentionally wanna "cheat" but tried to sidestep the ruling with it. As they already claimed (the pre-empted excuse) . "the ruling is ambiguous!!"

also, what is $$$ millions spend to them? It the results, that matter! And thou shall not lose the competiveness!

Also, Honda isnt the only one in history to do so. Example FIA caught toyota "cheating", even though they argue on that particular ingenieous mod on their rallying car years ago,FIA stripped them the victories and whole year points. What a waste. What FIA is doing now compare then is very lenient.

 

[boggysv]

I think I understand what you are trying to convey, but I'll still hold my point.
To each his own, i guess.

"But you see the simplest approach is that you say to the team would you pump the fuel out and they pump it out and you say is that everything and they say yes -- and it isn’t. There is still 15 litres in the car! "-Max Mosley

BAR could mention to the FIA about the fuel in the expansion tank, but they didnt.
Regardless of whether the FIA knows about the exsistence of the expansion tank, BAR said there was NO fuel in the car, which was not the truth.
Simply saying, they lied.

btw,
wasnt the 2 minardi's given a push at the start?

Ferrari also go their fair share of the FTT crap, remember their front wings that could bend?
Alot of other innovations also got screwed, ground effects, double chassis...

LOTUS RULES!!!!

Anyways, I'm not gonna so hyped up over F1, it's just another sport.

Cheers

 

[koolspyda]

earlier races this year, BAR DNF their cars so that they could have new engines for the following races.

(their way of interpreting FIA rule on having the same engine to last more then 1 race unless real engine failure)

BAR Honda very well even in race 1 that they havent iron out the kinks and werent competitive enough, knew this rule but played "innocence". Toyota and a few others protest the unspotmanlike behaviour.

BAR Honda after the truly excellent second place finish on manufacturer constructors last year is and have a burden to a least equal last year. Thats the price of competiveness.

having a secondary tank inside the main tank is.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4520621.stm

 

[BlackSamurai]

tricks? hmmm....

BIG/HUGE companies are involved like Honda in this case, we have others like Toyota,BMW,Merc,Renault,Ferrari,BAT,Marlboro and the whole of F1 throw $2.5 BILLION a year into it, do you think they would want to spoil their corporate image just by cheating a little bit here and there? I really don't think so..... don't you?

Friend, if you were the team manager or person-in-charge, knowing that your boss and partner pouring so much money into your team, having high expectation (due to last year great performance) and your team can't perform, investor and team boss give you pressure, you are in deepshit, will you think of giving certain level of "response" to make the team still look great?

Do you think BAR Board of director will [font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]approve the decision (color][/size][/font] if they knew? NO

Do you think Honda chairman [font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Yoshihide Munekuni know about the decision (
[/b]They are all investor, they want ROI, the team manager is support to be responsible for that, dun drag the company in. [/size][/font]

 

[cyborgsabah]

15 litres of expansion tank or in normal car moding terms "surge" tank is a little bit to big even for F1 cars.... most other teams got around 5 litres expansion tank only.... so if they used up the fuel in the expansion tank during the race and top it up on the final pit stop, they actualy running car less than 600kg...

 

[cyclonite]

Yeah why would you need a 15litre surge tank for? Unless it's positioned in such a location in the car that it's weight would help balance out the weight distribution of the car or something like that.

Notice that since BAR corrected this problem, they performed so badly at the Nurburgring last weekend.

15KGs is alot in F1, it's like taking 4-5 laps of additional fuel. can easily affect your lap times by a few hundred millisecond

 

[[Joc]]

Friend, if you were the team manager or person-in-charge, knowing that your boss and partner pouring so much money into your team, having high expectation (due to last year great performance) and your team can't perform, investor and team boss give you pressure, you are in deepshit, will you think of giving certain level of "response" to make the team still look great?

Do you think BAR Board of director will [font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]approve the decision (color][/size][/font] if they knew? NO

Do you think Honda chairman [font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Yoshihide Munekuni know about the decision (
[/b]They are all investor, they want ROI, the team manager is support to be responsible for that, dun drag the company in. [/size][/font]

well then friend, don't you think as the team director, you have a duty of care and due deligence to all your investors and employees? Nick Fry must make sure that absolutely nothing tarnishes the whole company's name and image. I would think that he has weighed the advantages and disadvantages before cheating and it is clear in a sport, cheating is that last thing that you ever want to get caught for doing.
well, maybe they didn't intentionally cheat? maybe... they've read the rule book, interpret it in a certain way, and was quite sure they can argue the case if people object that the rules state so, but the FIA, as i said, was being a complete asshole, due to political reasons. One reason why McLaren kept Kimi out at nurburgring was also due to political reasons. Some idiot said he finds my conspiracy theories funny, but just to prove a point, i don't think i'm the only one whom thinks so.
"After the BAR business at Imola and Montoya's penalty at Monaco, the climate in F1 at the moment is quite paranoid with the teams feeling that the FIA will come down like a ton of bricks on the slightest slip-up. The teams just don't want to give them any ammunition at the moment.

It's all part of the wider struggle for control of the future of the sport which, as I suggested in February, will be behind a lot of the things you see happening on and off the track this year." quote from James Allen "http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&PO_ID=33004"


well of course i am not forcing these opinions on you, and i hope you're not either. I'm just sharing my little 2 cents.


And yeah, you guys are all saying now that they are slower cause they can't cheat anymore. goodness gracious, were they really quick in australia,malaysia,bahrain WHEN THEY WERE CHEATING? guess not.... cause they didn't even score a point. and don't argue that they weren't using the same fuel tank then, because BAR did say that FIA knew about their fuel tank already in Malaysia, and they could have easily brought the matter up then. Why wait for Imola? and now they've had a 2 race ban, their momentum and morale for devolepment has slowed. They are out of sync with their tyre development, and now they have to catch up a bit. Plus, as they were saying all weekend, their engines were 5 weeks old, never in the history of Formula 1 was this ever done. But, i don't know how much of their pace is down to their engines, so we'll have to wait and see at Montreal if they are really much quicker. Have a good day guys.

 

[cyborgsabah]

i guess its all about bending the rules without breaking it... BAR went a bit too far and broke the rules so they have to pay for it..... i think any teams not only BAR also will face the same action if the were found not complying with the rules and regulations.... and i still think the minimum weight of 600kg without fuel is quite clear and BAR should have know better...

 

[[Joc]]

yeah i'd agree with you totally... they were just trying to interpret and bend it however well they can. oh well... tough business... hope they do fine from now on. Hope they get to keep jenson too, cause williams didn't look too good. but they're coming back up... heidfield is MEGA! much better than webber i'd say...