Buying advice for Evo and Impreza

[sweelt]

too much power, cant control also a problem. On paper is powerful.
Later tyre spinning, car din move.....

 

[ixeo]

But I believe the potential limit that 4WD or RWD can achieve is much higher than FF. Sure, it is hard even for some 4WD cars like Evo to beat a Megane RS provided if both are stock. But we have witnessed the potential of how much faster an Evo is able to go from the results of TTA like the yellow ST Wangan Evo. Even the modified Megane RS or Civic FD2R couldn't come close to the figures achieved by that Evo. If I am not mistaken, the top results are all dominated by 4WD machines like Evo, STI and GT-R.

That being said, I did notice that more Evo seems to be setting a faster lap time than STI despite the similarities between both cars. Why though? Does that mean that STI had a lower potential limit than Evo?

At TTA levels, with the amount of money they throw in, physics come into play where the limitations of the platform itself will be apparent.

It's like a good driver (AWD) and a bad driver (FF). Driver here refers to the platform.
A bad driver can beat a good driver, assuming bad driver is driving a stock GT3RS and good driver is driving a stock Perodua Satria GTi, on a long track like Sepang.

But when you start throwing money at both, the limitation of the driver/platform will come into play.

Most people hardly access 90% of their car's potential on the road and New-gen FFs today have superior mechanical grip unlike those of before. It is also nimble unlike AWD cars.

Stock to stock, it'll be quite impossible to beat a Megane RS with say an Evo on road or track to be honest.

So Modern FF > Old 4WD

Having said that, modern AWD are lightyears more advanced today like in the Golf 7R or even the AWS + AWD 991.2 C4S.

In this case, Modern 4WD > Everything

Which is why some say you don't need to have a lot of power to have fun. Modern AWD are so much more expensive than Old AWD. The EVO is dead, the Subaru Impreza now looks like an EVO.

And in its place, Modern FFs are doing a pretty great job.

 

[RENESIS VIII]

In head-to-head tests between brand new stock Evos & WRXs of the same year/generation, most of the time Evos were able to lap quicker, mostly due to the handling. Note also the stock Evo torque peak happens at about 500-1000 lower rpms than stock WRXs for about the same amount of peak torque, so that may also contribute to quicker lap times. But if you're talking about mods then it's open ended coz depends on how smart you tune and how much money you have. If you're looking for outright raw power potential if really maxed out with no budget limit at all, I've seen videos 4G63T producing almost 2000HP, not sure about WRX engines though if also able to reach similar outputs.

But then, I have also seen tests of special versions of WRX STI against Evo like Spec C Type RA-R. When it comes to those, some of them are even faster than Evo.

A 4G63T with near 2000hp probably already changed almost everything on the engine itself. Almost like a custom built engine based on 4G63T.

At TTA levels, with the amount of money they throw in, physics come into play where the limitations of the platform itself will be apparent.

It's like a good driver (AWD) and a bad driver (FF). Driver here refers to the platform.
A bad driver can beat a good driver, assuming bad driver is driving a stock GT3RS and good driver is driving a stock Perodua Satria GTi, on a long track like Sepang.

But when you start throwing money at both, the limitation of the driver/platform will come into play.



Which is why some say you don't need to have a lot of power to have fun. Modern AWD are so much more expensive than Old AWD. The EVO is dead, the Subaru Impreza now looks like an EVO.

And in its place, Modern FFs are doing a pretty great job.

Well, in TTA, there are also drivers with more 'ordinary' cars beating supercars. Like I remember there is this EK9 turbo who beat supercars like McLaren MP4-12C. Perhaps this is a case of good vs bad driver? No matter how I see it, it is impossible that a well engineered machine that took millions of development cost like McLaren MP4 can lose to a 20 year old hatch modded by local tuners. The EK is probably at its highest limit while the McLaren could still be far from its limits.

 

[6UE5t]

But then, I have also seen tests of special versions of WRX STI against Evo like Spec C Type RA-R. When it comes to those, some of them are even faster than Evo.

A 4G63T with near 2000hp probably already changed almost everything on the engine itself. Almost like a custom built engine based on 4G63T.



Well, in TTA, there are also drivers with more 'ordinary' cars beating supercars. Like I remember there is this EK9 turbo who beat supercars like McLaren MP4-12C. Perhaps this is a case of good vs bad driver? No matter how I see it, it is impossible that a well engineered machine that took millions of development cost like McLaren MP4 can lose to a 20 year old hatch modded by local tuners. The EK is probably at its highest limit while the McLaren could still be far from its limits.

Well Subaru keep throwing all kinds of upgraded, more aggressively tuned lighter versions to keep up or beat Evos. Just try to count how many versions the WRX has already, I also lost count and cannot remember them coz there are so many. Evos on the other hand basically only settled to few versions: GSR, RS, and later on the MR, then the GT only for the IX (which was basically still like a mix between GSR amenities + RS LSD differential). Even the GSR & MR on the IX also practically became the same, just some minor cosmetic differences but not to really improve performance like Subaru did with every special release. Subaru has even released 3 different engines (2.0, 2.2, and 2.5) while Evo was just 1 with a 2.0. That tells me which one actually started up with the better base already on each generation.

Of course, 2000HP from a 2.0ltr engine, that's 1000HP/ltr man! Surely was fully built one and don't know how many 4G63 blocks and heads with gear boxes the builder had to blow up to pieces before finally reaching that power level!

About normal cheap cars but highly tuned/race prepared vs exotic super/hypercars in SIC TTA, well you have to keep in mind also that those driving the super expensive exotics usually will not want to risk it as much as the ones driving a Civic. Heck the Civic most probably have had multiple crashes and mechanical failures on its way to reach such performance while the exotics as just like they were from the showroom. Crash that McLaren then the owner will lose hundreds of thousands or even total lost more than a million dollar car! The only way to find out is to have those exotics also driven by the same driver with the same bat-out-of-hell driving, then you'd see the true fastest. Whenever you have different drivers involved with different mindset, then you cannot really compare. Aside from the STW yellow Evo, in the end those TTA is still headed by an R35 for street legal cars right? So you can take that R35 as the supercar representative rightfully at the top above whatever Civics etc2.

 

[6UE5t]

Most definitely. Just a couple of weeks back I was in a drive where there was a Version 9 STI RAR and a flashed Megane RS. The RAR probably had over 350hp and simply trumped the Megane at the exits and straights at the Klawang hills.

So It really depends what the OP want. To contain 400hp or to access all 300hp

Btw were you driving the Megane RS then?

 

[ixeo]

But then, I have also seen tests of special versions of WRX STI against Evo like Spec C Type RA-R. When it comes to those, some of them are even faster than Evo.

A 4G63T with near 2000hp probably already changed almost everything on the engine itself. Almost like a custom built engine based on 4G63T.



Well, in TTA, there are also drivers with more 'ordinary' cars beating supercars. Like I remember there is this EK9 turbo who beat supercars like McLaren MP4-12C. Perhaps this is a case of good vs bad driver? No matter how I see it, it is impossible that a well engineered machine that took millions of development cost like McLaren MP4 can lose to a 20 year old hatch modded by local tuners. The EK is probably at its highest limit while the McLaren could still be far from its limits.

A mclaren developed with "balance" in mind, because off the shelf you can't predict where your car will be driven. If you specifically prepare a track weapon for Sepang, taking into mind the long straights and most long corners... you can perform better than a "jack of all traits". That's why I say with money invested it's possible. But then it become a one hit wonder.

Just like WTAC cars. It was designed to dominate that circuit and nothing else. Put it in B roads and the result would be very different.

 

[RENESIS VIII]

Well Subaru keep throwing all kinds of upgraded, more aggressively tuned lighter versions to keep up or beat Evos. Just try to count how many versions the WRX has already, I also lost count and cannot remember them coz there are so many. Evos on the other hand basically only settled to few versions: GSR, RS, and later on the MR, then the GT only for the IX (which was basically still like a mix between GSR amenities + RS LSD differential). Even the GSR & MR on the IX also practically became the same, just some minor cosmetic differences but not to really improve performance like Subaru did with every special release. Subaru has even released 3 different engines (2.0, 2.2, and 2.5) while Evo was just 1 with a 2.0. That tells me which one actually started up with the better base already on each generation.

Of course, 2000HP from a 2.0ltr engine, that's 1000HP/ltr man! Surely was fully built one and don't know how many 4G63 blocks and heads with gear boxes the builder had to blow up to pieces before finally reaching that power level!

About normal cheap cars but highly tuned/race prepared vs exotic super/hypercars in SIC TTA, well you have to keep in mind also that those driving the super expensive exotics usually will not want to risk it as much as the ones driving a Civic. Heck the Civic most probably have had multiple crashes and mechanical failures on its way to reach such performance while the exotics as just like they were from the showroom. Crash that McLaren then the owner will lose hundreds of thousands or even total lost more than a million dollar car! The only way to find out is to have those exotics also driven by the same driver with the same bat-out-of-hell driving, then you'd see the true fastest. Whenever you have different drivers involved with different mindset, then you cannot really compare. Aside from the STW yellow Evo, in the end those TTA is still headed by an R35 for street legal cars right? So you can take that R35 as the supercar representative rightfully at the top above whatever Civics etc2.

I know that the STI uses 2.0 litre EJ20 in the Japanese market while they use a 2.5 litre EJ257 for export market. As for the 2.2 litre, that is only for the 22B STI isn't it?

Speaking of special versions of STI, I did notice that Subaru seemed to have reduced the variants in their newer STI. The high amount of special versions probably came during GDB chassis era. From what I can recall without checking around, I think they have these for the Japanese market :

1. Standard STI
2. Spec C
3. S series (S202, S203, S204)
4. Spec C Type RA
5. Spec C Type RA-R

So, I guess the difference between someone who drives a Civic and one who drives a McLaren in TTA would be that one could be a hardcore racing enthusiast versus a rich guy who just wants to have some fun in track....

A mclaren developed with "balance" in mind, because off the shelf you can't predict where your car will be driven. If you specifically prepare a track weapon for Sepang, taking into mind the long straights and most long corners... you can perform better than a "jack of all traits". That's why I say with money invested it's possible. But then it become a one hit wonder.

Just like WTAC cars. It was designed to dominate that circuit and nothing else. Put it in B roads and the result would be very different.

Hence, the McLaren is sort of an all rounder car built for multipurpose unlike that Civic which could be specially prepared for Sepang itself. I get what you mean. But I actually thought that the natural technical advantage in McLaren would put it in a much better position than Civic. Like the better MR layout, higher engine output, wider tyres, faster gearshifts, aerodynamics and all those electronic gadgetry to assist the driver... The Civic is definitely inferior in all these points even when it is turbocharged.

 

[ixeo]

Track weapon is not just "turbo". Gear ratios optimized for the track makes a bigger difference. I wonder if Tom/ZTH have an article detailing what goes on in preparing a track weapon in technical detail. Most average enthusiast wouldn't be interested, but a single topic such as power curve of the engine coupled with how the gear ratios work in tandem, how it was designed to hold a certain RPM for a specific corner that would nett the fastest time around in.

That mambo jumbo is like rocket science. I have low IQ so I just call it magic.

 

[RENESIS VIII]

Track weapon is not just "turbo". Gear ratios optimized for the track makes a bigger difference. I wonder if Tom/ZTH have an article detailing what goes on in preparing a track weapon in technical detail. Most average enthusiast wouldn't be interested, but a single topic such as power curve of the engine coupled with how the gear ratios work in tandem, how it was designed to hold a certain RPM for a specific corner that would nett the fastest time around in.

That mambo jumbo is like rocket science. I have low IQ so I just call it magic.

I'm saying turbo because I'm actually referring to the blue EK9 turbo driven by Mark Darwin in TTA. I think that is the fastest Civic in the whole event. There is another EG6 NA which also came quite close to this EK9.

 

[6UE5t]

I know that the STI uses 2.0 litre EJ20 in the Japanese market while they use a 2.5 litre EJ257 for export market. As for the 2.2 litre, that is only for the 22B STI isn't it?

Speaking of special versions of STI, I did notice that Subaru seemed to have reduced the variants in their newer STI. The high amount of special versions probably came during GDB chassis era. From what I can recall without checking around, I think they have these for the Japanese market :

1. Standard STI
2. Spec C
3. S series (S202, S203, S204)
4. Spec C Type RA
5. Spec C Type RA-R

So, I guess the difference between someone who drives a Civic and one who drives a McLaren in TTA would be that one could be a hardcore racing enthusiast versus a rich guy who just wants to have some fun in track....

My guess is Subaru also tried to compensate the lower torque at low rpm by having bigger cc engines. Yes, the 2.2 was only on the 22B STI, considered by many as their best ever to combat the TME.

Well even in V10 also still had those many versions. Maybe now not as many already coz no more new Evo to beat!

Yes, I believe so, those exotics were not driven flat out to their maximum potential like those Civics etc or the R35s.

 

[jerrysiow]

At TTA levels, with the amount of money they throw in, physics come into play where the limitations of the platform itself will be apparent.

It's like a good driver (AWD) and a bad driver (FF). Driver here refers to the platform.
A bad driver can beat a good driver, assuming bad driver is driving a stock GT3RS and good driver is driving a stock Perodua Satria GTi, on a long track like Sepang.

But when you start throwing money at both, the limitation of the driver/platform will come into play.



Which is why some say you don't need to have a lot of power to have fun. Modern AWD are so much more expensive than Old AWD. The EVO is dead, the Subaru Impreza now looks like an EVO.

And in its place, Modern FFs are doing a pretty great job.

Hehe, bila Perodua ada model call Satria GTI? it catches my eyes and making me confused in a second.

 

[RENESIS VIII]

My guess is Subaru also tried to compensate the lower torque at low rpm by having bigger cc engines. Yes, the 2.2 was only on the 22B STI, considered by many as their best ever to combat the TME.

Well even in V10 also still had those many versions. Maybe now not as many already coz no more new Evo to beat!

Yes, I believe so, those exotics were not driven flat out to their maximum potential like those Civics etc or the R35s.

The extra 500cc is ridiculous especially in our country where roadtax is based on displacement. Getting a recond STI with 2 litre engine from Japan is better than buying the official import 2.5 litre STI. I heard from many sources saying that the 2 litre engine internals is even stronger than the 2.5 litre. Driving the 2.5 litre is like paying more for less... I'm quite sure that the extra 500cc will give a poorer FC too.

I din't know a lot about V10 GRB/GVB chassis STI special versions. I think they have a Spec C for that too. And the S series special version S206. But the hatchback GRB adopted a different name for that. Calls is R205 instead of S205.

Well, other than the absence of Evo, the market for performance cars in Japan seemed to have shrunk I think. So, I guess one spec is enough... The latest VAB chassis STI is only available in 2 trim from dealer. Standard and Type S. The special version would be the S207. No reason to offer so many different variations which might confuse potential buyers.

Well, R35 is also sort of an exotic car isn't it? But still many drivers have pushed their R35 to its limits... Then again, R35 is also much cheaper than other exotic cars. Cheaper by 2 or 3 times the amount.

 

[6UE5t]

The extra 500cc is ridiculous especially in our country where roadtax is based on displacement. Getting a recond STI with 2 litre engine from Japan is better than buying the official import 2.5 litre STI. I heard from many sources saying that the 2 litre engine internals is even stronger than the 2.5 litre. Driving the 2.5 litre is like paying more for less... I'm quite sure that the extra 500cc will give a poorer FC too.

I din't know a lot about V10 GRB/GVB chassis STI special versions. I think they have a Spec C for that too. And the S series special version S206. But the hatchback GRB adopted a different name for that. Calls is R205 instead of S205.

Well, other than the absence of Evo, the market for performance cars in Japan seemed to have shrunk I think. So, I guess one spec is enough... The latest VAB chassis STI is only available in 2 trim from dealer. Standard and Type S. The special version would be the S207. No reason to offer so many different variations which might confuse potential buyers.

Well, R35 is also sort of an exotic car isn't it? But still many drivers have pushed their R35 to its limits... Then again, R35 is also much cheaper than other exotic cars. Cheaper by 2 or 3 times the amount.

Exactly, coz not many to compete with anymore. Unlike 10-30 yrs ago where you got so many JDM supercars: Supra, GTO, Evo, WRX, Skylines, NSX, RX7.

R35 is not exotic car I suppose coz it's much cheaper comparatively and much more widely available to buy, it's just a bloody fast supercar! That's why also they often drive them flat out as well in those events coz the repairs will not be as expensive as those McLaren etc2.. If destroyed at least not as expensive and can still easily buy replacement, but if McLaren, not as easy right?

 

[RENESIS VIII]

Exactly, coz not many to compete with anymore. Unlike 10-30 yrs ago where you got so many JDM supercars: Supra, GTO, Evo, WRX, Skylines, NSX, RX7.

R35 is not exotic car I suppose coz it's much cheaper comparatively and much more widely available to buy, it's just a bloody fast supercar! That's why also they often drive them flat out as well in those events coz the repairs will not be as expensive as those McLaren etc2.. If destroyed at least not as expensive and can still easily buy replacement, but if McLaren, not as easy right?

Now, driving and interest in cars don't seemed to be like a big thing anymore among the younger generations in Japan. I heard that many of the young ones don't even own a car. With strict car inspections, regulations, expensive maintenance and very efficient public transport, it is really hard for the younger generations there to find any reasons to get hooked up to cars. Some Japanese manufacturers also seems to be moving away from their past motor sport history. Like Mitsubishi, we don't see them promoting much about racing and performance do we? Same for Mazda, the company who popularized the not-so-environment friendly rotary engines are now talking about eco cars and efficiency.

R35 may not be an exotic car but its maintenance costs is definitely on par with other exotics like Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini. A tyre that can cost like RM2500 a piece is definitely not something for everyone despite the low price tag for a used R35 nowadays. Now, R35 are going for under RM300k for used ones. But that doesn't mean someone who can afford a up to RM300k car is able to maintain a R35.

 

[6UE5t]

Now, driving and interest in cars don't seemed to be like a big thing anymore among the younger generations in Japan. I heard that many of the young ones don't even own a car. With strict car inspections, regulations, expensive maintenance and very efficient public transport, it is really hard for the younger generations there to find any reasons to get hooked up to cars. Some Japanese manufacturers also seems to be moving away from their past motor sport history. Like Mitsubishi, we don't see them promoting much about racing and performance do we? Same for Mazda, the company who popularized the not-so-environment friendly rotary engines are now talking about eco cars and efficiency.

R35 may not be an exotic car but its maintenance costs is definitely on par with other exotics like Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini. A tyre that can cost like RM2500 a piece is definitely not something for everyone despite the low price tag for a used R35 nowadays. Now, R35 are going for under RM300k for used ones. But that doesn't mean someone who can afford a up to RM300k car is able to maintain a R35.

Mitsubishi doesn't even have any high performance car anymore in their current line up since the Evo X!

Of course maintaining an R35 still damn expensive for average joes like us but I think still cheaper than those European exotics.

 

[RENESIS VIII]

Mitsubishi doesn't even have any high performance car anymore in their current line up since the Evo X!

Of course maintaining an R35 still damn expensive for average joes like us but I think still cheaper than those European exotics.

Galant VR-4 dead, Eclipse dead, Evolution is dead too...

Hmm, actually I've seen a lot of people posting about the maintenance of R35 here but we rarely see any post about maintenance cost of Euro exotics....

 

[sweelt]

Got money to buy 300-500k or more vehicle , why complain.....

 

[6UE5t]

Galant VR-4 dead, Eclipse dead, Evolution is dead too...

Hmm, actually I've seen a lot of people posting about the maintenance of R35 here but we rarely see any post about maintenance cost of Euro exotics....

Yup, Mitsu really changed direction I suppose. Back then it's probably the most sporty Japanese car brand coz it had the most performance car line ups (VR4, Eclipse, Evo, GTO), but now already moved towards pickups and SUVs. Hopefully now bought by Nissan can bring back some awesome performance cars again.

Coz not many can afford buying those euro exotics also!

 

[vr2turbo]

Galant VR-4 dead, Eclipse dead, Evolution is dead too...

Hmm, actually I've seen a lot of people posting about the maintenance of R35 here but we rarely see any post about maintenance cost of Euro exotics....

VR4 not dead but disappearing as this was since 1990 model.....

 

[RENESIS VIII]

Yup, Mitsu really changed direction I suppose. Back then it's probably the most sporty Japanese car brand coz it had the most performance car line ups (VR4, Eclipse, Evo, GTO), but now already moved towards pickups and SUVs. Hopefully now bought by Nissan can bring back some awesome performance cars again.

Coz not many can afford buying those euro exotics also!

Currently, it seems that only Nissan's Nismo is still showing a lot of support for performance cars. They are still doing new demo cars using Skyline GT-R. I think their latest demo car is a BCNR33 Skyline GT-R. The motorsport division of other manufacturers seems to be sitting quite idly nowadays...

ZTH got a lot of rich sifu. But most of them not active now. I remember there is this GT-R sifu here who owns a few Skyline GT-R himself.

VR4 not dead but disappearing as this was since 1990 model.....

The last one would be the Super VR-4 EC5A with 6A13TT. I think should be 20 years ago already.