Lsd....

[evoX2]

i tried s15, got tak tak tak noise coming back from the rear during slow turning. however i tried sti, full lock lsd, no noise at all.

will lsd help on pick up?

 

[shiroitenshi]

may i know if LSD will caused tak tak tak noise?

AFAIK, there are a few types of full lock LSD, for the ones that use a ratchet system, yes, there is a tak/tak/tak noise.. that's why it needs to be broken in... after a while, the noise will be minimized, but never disappear completely. The best way for turning when using this ratchet system is not to accelerate when you turn to avoid the noise.. it causes some handling issues (from my point of view-lah!), which is why I seem to see it installed in drag oriented applications. (or drift, as some might say)

Then there's also type of full lock that doesn't make noise due to it's design... OS Giken uses the clutch + helical to achieve that effect, while there are other brands that uses some other system (not sure.. haven't seen, only heard)

One way to know if it's a one way full lock or a two way is that when turning under acceleration, the tak tak tak sound will appear when you accelerate, and disappear when you coast without throttle, while it makes the sound with throttle or not for a two way. I have only seen one way full lock.. never a two way.. so my experience quite limited.

One thing to remember is that LSD works to distribute power between the left and right wheels... for most people, the stock differential works fine already, unless your car makes a lot of power that anytime there's less traction on one side, the car swerves to the left or right. For extreme powered cars, it still happens.. but just at a reduced level.

 

[akuma]

lightningfield,
ur head lar my LSD no noise....make HELLUVA tak tak tak sound lar...u demam ar kenot hear it?..n oh yeah..ur FGK??dun wan lar..so kicimiau!ahhahahah

 

[Grex_R]

Full lock lsd can be driven but must endure with the kling kling uhh uhh sound lah.
Mine works well with my speedo coz lsd doesn't affect the electronic or cable meters. Feel the differnt when cornering.

 

[Grex_R]

will help during launch coz it will balance the power between right n left traction so it won't slip understand like turbos during launch they dun have enough traction.

 

[evoX2]

thats mean LSD will also shorten tyre life span too?

 

[akuma]

evoX2,
whoa..now dats a good question..i oso wanna know ler....

shiro,
care 2 answer dis 1?n dude,no more use jigoku lar..now v go international mah?sum more HELL is easier 2 say..heheheh

 

[Grex_R]

nope without lsd ur 1 side wheel will spin more coz there is no traction.

 

[akuma]

updated w d actual pic.just pickec it up frm my workshop.
cheers

 

[shiroitenshi]

Getting high with LSD.. :P

 

[akuma]

shiro,
thx...u want?price HIGHLY nego!heheheh

 

[shiroitenshi]

even if 1K, I'd rather buy some econolite rods first... or else B20B project will get stuck forever.. (>_
Anyway.. PM me the price.. maybe some fella here might want.

 

[ace79]

Ohohoho..somebody wnats to rev the tits off their B20B....want to buy Econolite rods...

B20B subject : Most cases of B20B Frankenstein motors blow because of the walls gave way. Anything that we can do to avoid this ( other than having to send the block to AUS for a resleeve? )? I know some B20B owners don't put a rev limiter in their ECUs, therefore sometimes ter-over rev over 8k RPM and suddenly...POOF!

even if 1K, I'd rather buy some econolite rods first... or else B20B project will get stuck forever.. (>_
Anyway.. PM me the price.. maybe some fella here might want.

 

[akuma]

shiro,
B20 really dat syiok 2 play w meh?.....anyway,m posting my LSD @ RM1K(coz i dun wanna spoil d market)....if genuinely interested can PM me...price SERIOUSLY HIGHLY NEGO...hehehehehhe

 

[shiroitenshi]

ok.. will let you know if any fishes here bite.. :P

Actually for track, I don't think B20B is a good choice... for street, yes, because it has low end torque, and that's where we use most on the street, where we don't keep high revs. That's why I didn't go down the B18CR route.

Anyway... mine is a sedan mah... no play play one lah.. that's why when I have the chance, I want to trash this B16A to the max for fun.... then when stuff B20B.. become family car edi.. albeit one that can blow the doors off most 2.0 litre passenger cars esp when I meet those people that simply accelerate when I'm overtaking.. bwahahaha... (evil laugh!) And anyway, on the street, the fifth gear ratio become just right since ppl over here seem to hover at 2.5K and below when cruising at fifth.. (>.
ace79..
The rods don't allow you to rev to 8Klah... the reason being the short rod ratio of the B20B speeds up the piston too fast and creates too much stress on the sleeves (vibration+heat=sleeve failure). Occasionally canlah, but not for track junkies in my opinion. unless you increase the rod ratio by using the crank I told you about.. I don't think it's a safe bet to rev a B20B constantly to 8K.. esp. if you opt not to have piston sprayers, and use the stock B20B crank. Anyway.. if you want to have fun on a budget, there's always the b16B piston on a stock b16A block, with the high compression, tuning and some racing fuel so you can run aggresive timings, I think you can have plenty fun on the track, provided you keep high revs, since B16A is pretty lame at 5K rpm and below. Track oriented and street oriented mods have different objective IMO.

There are combo's that allow revving safely 8K, and I think I already told you in a PM to you before, and mine is not for 8K.. 7.5 only.. that one also tentative.. have to calculate the rod stroke ratio, then compare the piston speed to a type R's one (forgot the number), then compensate for the lack of piston sprayers due to the big bore size... currently dunno yet if I want to go how big in the sense of overbore since piston choice also still up in the air.... still a long way off.. haih! This project highly depends on how patient I am going to be to collect all the required parts first (and of course, how fast I can accumulate funding :P).

 

[hattech-v]

Ohohoho..somebody wnats to rev the tits off their B20B....want to buy Econolite rods...

B20B subject : Most cases of B20B Frankenstein motors blow because of the walls gave way. Anything that we can do to avoid this ( other than having to send the block to AUS for a resleeve? )? I know some B20B owners don't put a rev limiter in their ECUs, therefore sometimes ter-over rev over 8k RPM and suddenly...POOF!

now easy to get b20b block... kaboom one change another... haha
i got b20b block for sell as well... hehe

 

[ace79]

I think a stock B16A + B20B can rev up to 8k RPM safely with the help of oil sprayers, I'm still doing research on this matter with the help of my old man. Just need to find a way on how to feed the oil sprayers from the sump. Other things I think can kawtim oledi.

By fitting and running oil sprayers like OEM B16A bottom end ( spraying oil to the underneath of pistons ), this will greatly cool the pistons, lessen the heat on the cranks, hence less temp on the pistons, and therefore, less heat and and the wall stress related from piston heat also, correct?

One of the reason I chose to go for B20B is, mainly, the cost versus power factor. If I go to the B16B pistons route, it'll cost me almost the same amount of cash, but not enuff torque and power increase. I have personally tested a nice Frankenstein ( stock B20B internals! ) EG hatchie 3 years ago, reaching 120 kph under 7 seconds with a top speed like a standard B16A ( about 230 kph++, which is more than enuff! ), and of course, the neck - snapping torque!

Anyway I plan this B20B project as a stopgap, or a pause in my car's tuning. When I can afford a K20A2 complete conversion ( that must include extra moolah to get make legal! ), then I'll go for it and dump the B20B, or not!

Hhhmmmm, cranks eh. If just use diff rods cannot meh? Like those Ultralight ones?

In the track, usually the rev will hover around at the minimum, 2k RPM, and that only happens at Turn 9. The rest, at least 3k to 4k RPM. So I think, with a rev limiter fitted in the ECU, and the oil injectors, plus some common sense, I think, it should be pretty fun for SIC fun.

ok.. will let you know if any fishes here bite.. :P

Actually for track, I don't think B20B is a good choice... for street, yes, because it has low end torque, and that's where we use most on the street, where we don't keep high revs. That's why I didn't go down the B18CR route.

Anyway... mine is a sedan mah... no play play one lah.. that's why when I have the chance, I want to trash this B16A to the max for fun.... then when stuff B20B.. become family car edi.. albeit one that can blow the doors off most 2.0 litre passenger cars esp when I meet those people that simply accelerate when I'm overtaking.. bwahahaha... (evil laugh!) And anyway, on the street, the fifth gear ratio become just right since ppl over here seem to hover at 2.5K and below when cruising at fifth.. (>.
ace79..
The rods don't allow you to rev to 8Klah... the reason being the short rod ratio of the B20B speeds up the piston too fast and creates too much stress on the sleeves (vibration+heat=sleeve failure). Occasionally canlah, but not for track junkies in my opinion. unless you increase the rod ratio by using the crank I told you about.. I don't think it's a safe bet to rev a B20B constantly to 8K.. esp. if you opt not to have piston sprayers, and use the stock B20B crank. Anyway.. if you want to have fun on a budget, there's always the b16B piston on a stock b16A block, with the high compression, tuning and some racing fuel so you can run aggresive timings, I think you can have plenty fun on the track, provided you keep high revs, since B16A is pretty lame at 5K rpm and below. Track oriented and street oriented mods have different objective IMO.

There are combo's that allow revving safely 8K, and I think I already told you in a PM to you before, and mine is not for 8K.. 7.5 only.. that one also tentative.. have to calculate the rod stroke ratio, then compare the piston speed to a type R's one (forgot the number), then compensate for the lack of piston sprayers due to the big bore size... currently dunno yet if I want to go how big in the sense of overbore since piston choice also still up in the air.... still a long way off.. haih! This project highly depends on how patient I am going to be to collect all the required parts first (and of course, how fast I can accumulate funding :P).

 

[hattech-v]

ace, no need to do research anymore... send to me ur block... i know who can do the oil squitter for u...

 

[shiroitenshi]

I think a stock B16A + B20B can rev up to 8k RPM safely with the help of oil sprayers, I'm still doing research on this matter with the help of my old man. Just need to find a way on how to feed the oil sprayers from the sump. Other things I think can kawtim oledi.

The oil squirters I think you can observe the paths from a B16A block. Tooling wise.. I'm not sure it's DIY-able. Lucky you and your old man in interested in engines.. my old man only knows that a car runs on four wheels.. ROFL!

Oil squirters must also be angled to clear the B20 crank, and doesn't allow big bore sizes. I forgot the maximum bore with oil squirts installed, but I think it's 84mm or less. not sure, so don't trust me on that.

One reason that the B20B sleeves fails is not entirely due to lubrication in my opinion.. rather because

1) the sleeves are thin (esp when you run 86mm pistons or higher)
2) the piston speed is very very fast.

For example, let's look at the rod stroke ratio. For B20B, the crank stroke is 89mm. The speed of the piston is determined by [((rpm*2) * stroke)/1000] = avg. piston speed in metres per minute.

So at 8K, ((8000*2)*89mm) /1000 = 1424 meters per minutes . Divide by 60, you get 23.73m/s as the average speed.. I say average because the acceleration is influenced by the rod length, and this is where the vibration part comes in. It'll be clearer once you draw the diagram of piston and rods, and read the later part about rod length. The type R block pushes the piston at 1395metres per minute or 23.25m/s at 8K.. it doesn't seem much, but that minor differences will make a BIG difference when you push up the timescale, and that's where the problem lies with a B20B setup, where the sleeves are thinner (and more prone to vibration), and the rod angle is much more harsher (more on this later) and by this reason alone, it doesn't seem like a good idea to hit the same average speed as a B18CR. Notice the formula uses crank stroke, and which is why I implied (in my PM) a different shorter crank should allow for a less aggresive angle, and a lower avg. piston speed, and depending on the length of the rods you use, a more softer acceleration curve for the piston (which should lessen the vibration problem)

Now onto rod length.
The rods length determine the final position of the piston at TDC.. longer rods, and you'll find your piston popping out the top of the block, and doesn't reach down the usual location at BDC. A way to get around this is custom pistons with different wrist pin locations.. some (forged) pistons actually have the wrist hole higher, intruding into the ring area.. It's plausible this will allow use of longer rods, but worries about losing engine oil sort of make it quite a risk to try for street setups. The rods also determine the rod angle versus the crank (that's why if you've seen a Golden Eagle sleeved block, you'd notice that the bottom part of the sleeves are notched for rod clearance for preparation for use of an even shorter rod!. The stock B20B rods will result in a very steep piston rod angle that at the beginning of the stroke, they PUSH onto the sleeves hard at BDC, and less as it goes up the sleeves.. This is what causes the vibration, and even block guards cannot reduce it enough esp at high rpms.. and it's also what causes the premature wear and sometimes sleeve failure. Bigger bore also allows the use of shorter rods, but shorter rods (in a B20B setup with stock sleeves) is a risky venture.. one that my finances won't allow me to try.. and by observing the theories alone.. I don't think it's a safe bet that it will be reliable.

Generally, a longer rod reduces this, but a better option is using a block brace (Spoon or SS works) url]

By fitting and running oil sprayers like OEM B16A bottom end ( spraying oil to the underneath of pistons ), this will greatly cool the pistons, lessen the heat on the cranks, hence less temp on the pistons, and therefore, less heat and and the wall stress related from piston heat also, correct?

Yeah.. that might solve the heat problem.. but that doesn't solve the vibration problem. And the wall stresses aren't caused by heat alone, as I mentioned earlier in the rod length portion.

One of the reason I chose to go for B20B is, mainly, the cost versus power factor. If I go to the B16B pistons route, it'll cost me almost the same amount of cash, but not enuff torque and power increase. I have personally tested a nice Frankenstein ( stock B20B internals! ) EG hatchie 3 years ago, reaching 120 kph under 7 seconds with a top speed like a standard B16A ( about 230 kph++, which is more than enuff! ), and of course, the neck - snapping torque!

How would you use the same amount of cash for a B16B piston upgrade? Assuming pistons and rings are about 2K (probably less) you just have to put them in (workmanship charges not withstanding) and then go with Type R regulator (and VAFC or some other piggyback management that rocks your boat).. I think that's kinda cheap already.. and if you have the extra, a Type R intake would be nice to reduce possible bottlenecks.

For a B20B.. you need the oil feed for VTEC head, the block, crank and rods (and a rebore) at the very least..(workmanship and ECU management not withstanding) and I can't imagine getting all that for 2K!

Anyway I plan this B20B project as a stopgap, or a pause in my car's tuning. When I can afford a K20A2 complete conversion ( that must include extra moolah to get make legal! ), then I'll go for it and dump the B20B, or not!

I'm wanting that option as well.. but with the halfcut costing more than my EG, and it's not even 'financiable'... and most parts from the halfcut will not be used... I guess not feasible, considering a built B20B can beat the pants off a K20A on the same budget. A guy here planned likewise, till he saw the quotation.. ROFL!

Anyway.. I haven't have the chance to peek in a DC5R engine bay yet.. unless someone here offers me a peek into theirs, but from what I've heard, it's mounted on a separate subframe, and mounting a K20A on an EG causes some sort of traction problems.. hearsay, not sure... (but perhaps that why every single K20A video I've seen on the net shows rolling starts instead of a proper launch... I believe the driveshafts are of different lengths each side, causing a lot of torque steer... unless I've seen the real thing, I'm just guessing at the moment.

I also did some researched on required parts, and the list is very very long.. and not cheap, esp the driveshafts.

Hhhmmmm, cranks eh. If just use diff rods cannot meh? Like those Ultralight ones?

Read above on piston rod angle and how it causes vibration for why rods only doesn't cut it. Aftermarket rods are lighter and stronger, and also available in custom sizes.. but that's about it for the advantages from what I see.

In the track, usually the rev will hover around at the minimum, 2k RPM, and that only happens at Turn 9. The rest, at least 3k to 4k RPM. So I think, with a rev limiter fitted in the ECU, and the oil injectors, plus some common sense, I think, it should be pretty fun for SIC fun.

But running on the track is to push the engine to the max, isn't it? Anyway.. I'm not saying you can't use it.. more like a B18C is a more nicer option since you can rev the shit out of it without worries. (provided you didn't remove the rev limiter).. I've never driven on sepang.. although I'm looking forward to it.. hopefully sometime in december. Perhaps I'll have a better idea of what you mean then. And it might just be the place to work on heel & toe skills.. :P

Disclamier: I'm just relaying what I've learnt so far in the process of building my B20B.. although there's no preset budget, I'm also not willing to waste money. I'm also not an auto engineer (or even near that kind profession) and I find fun in learning engine theories.. finally somewhere to apply those obscure maths equations we learnt at secondary school.. :P

Don't take everything I say as a sure thing, since I'm also still learning.

 

[^Dreamerz^]

just as we are talking about LSD here..
i would like to know the difference between eg,ek, n type r lsd.. is there any?