How the hell do you tune Ignition Time with eManage?

[Johnny_9]

Since we dont know the orginal ignition curve.....is it hit and miss?

 

[ecupro]

Yes, you are right, hit and miss.
As long as there is not knock, you are safe.

 

[cyborgsabah]

try do some search on the net.. sometime you can find original ignition timing map... last time managed to get 4g63 evo3 ignition timing map on the net.. cant remember the address though...

 

[RSI]

Since we dont know the orginal ignition curve.....is it hit and miss?

Tuning ignition timing is best done on the dyno. Without it, the best way is to use an EGT [Exhaust gas temperature] sensor. Overly retarded timing results higher EGT and knocking causes the EGT to surge. So you will want to aim for lowest stable EGT. Normally you would not reach to the knock level as most ECUs have knock sensing that will retard timing as you advance.

 

[nova]

Tuning ignition timing is best done on the dyno. Without it, the best way is to use an EGT [Exhaust gas temperature] sensor. Overly retarded timing results higher EGT and knocking causes the EGT to surge. So you will want to aim for lowest stable EGT. Normally you would not reach to the knock level as most ECUs have knock sensing that will retard timing as you advance.

Just to add to RSI's post, I would not want to use EGT meter if I can afford another method. To me, it 's a poor-man's knock indicator and probably too late to tell when you realise knock. Just my 2ct.:regular_smile:

 

[jinkl]

im no tuner
bt i guess to tweak from the base map would be good rite

 

[Johnny_9]

So what the best cheap knock meter? Can you make one yourself with a simple electrical DIY knowledge?

 

[Johnny_9]

Which Dyno?

Tuning ignition timing is best done on the dyno. Without it, the best way is to use an EGT [Exhaust gas temperature] sensor. Overly retarded timing results higher EGT and knocking causes the EGT to surge. So you will want to aim for lowest stable EGT. Normally you would not reach to the knock level as most ECUs have knock sensing that will retard timing as you advance.

Which DYNO?
-Links
-N1
-Amoil
-GT
-Speedworks
-Trial

How good is SAFC2 knock meter?

 

[RSI]

So what the best cheap knock meter? Can you make one yourself with a simple electrical DIY knowledge?

With soldering skills you can make one, here is how to do it.


Buy a big crocodile clip (the ones you use to jumpstart dead car battery. Make a circuit or better still buy a headphone amplifier electronic kit. You can get them from jalan pasar for RM20 or so.

Get an electret condenser microphone and glue it inside the crocodile clip. The mic wires go into the input of the headphone amplifier.

Grip the crocodile clip on a bolt or something gripable under the intake manifold.

Wear headphones while tuning you will be able to clearly hear when engine knocks.
On stock ECUs which mostly have knock sensors. You may hardly hear knock as the ECU will quickly do something when knock occurs. For instanace if you keep reducing the fuel, and knock occurs ECU will start adding fuel up to a point where it does not add anymore. While you keep reducing fuel you will continuosly hear knock and if you don't lift off soon, you have a blown engine. Same goes to ignition timing. Too advance timing can cause knock to occur. The ECU is preprogramed to retard timing up to a certain value. For instance if the ECU is able to retard a maximum of 5 degrees. If you use say e-manage and keep advancing the timing beyond that, there will be a point where ECU won't cure knock anymore. Some even newer ECUs like those Siemens found on late model protons, will attempt to decrease throttle openings to reduce power. This is possible because the throttle is driven by a servo motor which is commanded by the ECU by reading the throttle pedal sensor. On turbo cars such as volvos, the ECU will lower boost as well.

It all depends on the ECU safety strategy.

Knock can sound different from car to car.

It can be:

1. Ting ting ting
2. Kluck kluck kluck
3. chick chick chick

Basically while running there should not be any metallic kind of sound.

 

[RSI]

Which DYNO?
-Links
-N1
-Amoil
-GT
-Speedworks
-Trial

How good is SAFC2 knock meter?

SAFC2 knock meter requires calibration. You need to tell it what is considered knock. Without any setup it cannot detect knock.

Any good dyno that has a brake [retarder] is superior.
How to tell? If the dyno has single roller=no brake. If dyno got two rollers where the tyre sits in between then it has. A 4WD dyno that has two rollers front and bake has no brake. 4WD brake dyno has 4 rollers altogether.

The brake has the ability for the tuner to hold the engine steadily and tune realtime. Without a brake, the tuner will have to run, make adjustment, run, make adjustment. You can say one is realtime while the other is offline.

Some known dynos:



Links/Sunway - Hyper Intl Dyno - Brake : Yes - 4WD

N1/Sunway - Dynojet - Brake : No - 4WD

Amoil/Sunway - Dynojet - Brake : No - 2WD

GT Auto/Sunway - Dynojet - Brake : No - 2WD

Speedworks/PJ - Dyno dynamics - Brake : Yes 4WD

Trial - not sure

D'Tuning/Sri Damansara - Dynojet - Brake : No - 2WD

Redsun/Pandan Indah - Dynojet - Brake : No - 2WD

Visworks [JB] - Dastek - Brake : Yes - 2WD

RS/Puchong - Dastek - Brake : Yes - 2WD

 

[Johnny_9]

Wire up Knock Sensor ECU Wire

With soldering skills you can make one, here is how to do it.


Buy a big crocodile clip (the ones you use to jumpstart dead car battery. Make a circuit or better still buy a headphone amplifier electronic kit. You can get them from jalan pasar for RM20 or so.

Get an electret condenser microphone and glue it inside the crocodile clip. The mic wires go into the input of the headphone amplifier.

Grip the crocodile clip on a bolt or something gripable under the intake manifold.

Wear headphones while tuning you will be able to clearly hear when engine knocks.
On stock ECUs which mostly have knock sensors. You may hardly hear knock as the ECU will quickly do something when knock occurs. For instanace if you keep reducing the fuel, and knock occurs ECU will start adding fuel up to a point where it does not add anymore. While you keep reducing fuel you will continuosly hear knock and if you don't lift off soon, you have a blown engine. Same goes to ignition timing. Too advance timing can cause knock to occur. The ECU is preprogramed to retard timing up to a certain value. For instance if the ECU is able to retard a maximum of 5 degrees. If you use say e-manage and keep advancing the timing beyond that, there will be a point where ECU won't cure knock anymore. Some even newer ECUs like those Siemens found on late model protons, will attempt to decrease throttle openings to reduce power. This is possible because the throttle is driven by a servo motor which is commanded by the ECU by reading the throttle pedal sensor. On turbo cars such as volvos, the ECU will lower boost as well.

It all depends on the ECU safety strategy.

Knock can sound different from car to car.

It can be:

1. Ting ting ting
2. Kluck kluck kluck
3. chick chick chick

Basically while running there should not be any metallic kind of sound.

..................

How about tapping the voltage signal off the wire from ECU Knock Sensor?

 

[Johnny_9]

How long does tuning the whole "used portion" ignition table take with a Brake Dyno and e-manage blue?

 

[ecupro]

(...Just a joke....)
Ehhhhh.....one month......

WHY ?

(...because you just break something....)


he...he...he...

SORRY...sorry....to....alllll

 

[RSI]

..................

How about tapping the voltage signal off the wire from ECU Knock Sensor?

Knock level is not sensed by voltage. The signal from the knock sensor is filtered out thru a series of software algorithms to determine knock. It is not as simple as that. It is equivalent to a speech recognition software on a PC whereby the PC has to be able to detect your voice (knock) over a noisy background (engine sound)

 

[RSI]

How long does tuning the whole "used portion" ignition table take with a Brake Dyno and e-manage blue?

An experienced tuner can do it in under 10 minutes.
NA engines are normally tuned for maximum power while turbo engines on the other hand are tuned more conservatively for the sake of safety.

Depending on the engine the engine can make maximum power 3 to 10 degrees before knocking can occur.

While tuning ignition timing, you would want the least timing advance making the best power. Basically you would advance the timing till you dont make any more power and back it off just before power drops. With a loading dyno you should not see knock as the power will stop increasing when you keep advancing the timing pass the ideal point.