Discuss :Petrol Price Comparison

[lanevo6]

Subject: FW: Petrol Price Comparison among OIL PRODUCING countries<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Today Tenaga stock rose by about MYR1.00. Volume traded in excess of 35 million units.Yesterday Tenaga stock was suspended.

Put these points together.

1. If you know that an announcement would be made on Wednesday that TNB rates will be revised upwards you would surely buy Tenaga shares on Tuesday.
2. If you own an investment bank or have sufficient credit line with an Investment Bank you would have bought as much as you could knowing that the price will surely go up.
3. Since you have to pay within 3 days (T+3 rule), you would have planned to sell on Friday. Â So you could have bought 1Million Tenaga shares on Tuesday and sold it today for a cool MYR1Million profit without paying any money (perhaps some borrowing costs for 2-3 days).
4. Of course none of us are privy to the announcement of the fuel hike, but the family of the PM are privy to it.
5. Of course none of us have a large credit line with an Investment Bank but the family of the PM owns an investment bank.
6. Why the surprise announcement on 05 June when the PM has said that it would be in August ? Well you can only make a big and quick profit if you control the timings and surprise others.
7. For those in the know (the powers that be and their cronies) this has been one hugely profitable week buying and shorting the related shares. The poor rakyat had to queue just to fill up their tanks and perhaps save between MYR20-MYR100.




Now read below..... Need those in know of the basic economics of crude, fuel etc to comment.

WHAT IS NEVER MENTIONED IN Mainstream Media like NST/TheStar/ Utusan/BH are these facts....

Malaysian PerCapita Income USD 5000 VS
Singaporean PerCapita Income USD 25000

Further The Star made a comparison of prices in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region> , <st1:country-region w:st="on">Singapore</st1:country-region> and <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Indonesia</st1:place></st1:country-region> .
For <st1:country-region w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region> it is quoted at RM3.90/liter, however are they aware that in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Thailand</st1:country-region> new cars are cheaper than <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Malaysia</st1:place></st1:country-region> by RM10,000? They pay only one life time for their driving license? No renewal fee after that? Also that goes for road tax as well? And do TheStar also aware that you can drive all the way from Hadtyai to <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bangkok</st1:place></st1:City> on a six lane highway without paying any Tolls ??!!

Whereas here in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Malaysia</st1:place></st1:country-region> you have to pay yearly renewal for road tax , driving license and TOLLS, TOLLS, TOLLS!!!

For <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Singapore</st1:place></st1:country-region> how can you quote RM 5.20 ? Please quote in Singapore Dollars because they are earning in Sing Dollars. You might as well say Europeans are paying RM10/liter. RM5.20/liter = Sing $ 2.20/liter, still cheaper than <st1:country-region w:st="on">Malaysia</st1:country-region> in view of fact that <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Singapore</st1:place></st1:country-region> is not a crude oil exporter. Are you saying that you fill up petrol in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Singapore</st1:place></st1:country-region> by paying Ringgit?

In economy, dollar to dollar must be compared as apple to apple. Not comparing like durian in M'sia is much cheaper than durian in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>!! Of course-lah, <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> is not durian producer!!! Comparing Malaysian durian with <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Thailand</st1:place></st1:country-region> durian make more sense!!

For <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Indonesia</st1:place></st1:country-region> we might say is cheaper there at RM2.07/liter but compare that to their level of income!


Now, let us compare the price with OIL PRODUCING countries:

UAE RM1.19/litre
Eygpt RM1.03/litre
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bahrain</st1:place></st1:country-region> RM0.87/litre
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Qatar</st1:place></st1:country-region> RM0.68/litre
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kuwait</st1:place></st1:country-region> RM0.67/litre
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Saudi Arabia</st1:place></st1:country-region> RM0.38/litre
IranRM0.35/litre
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Nigeria</st1:place></st1:country-region> RM0.32/litre
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Turkmenistan</st1:place></st1:country-region> RM0.25/litre
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Venezuela</st1:place></st1:country-region> RM0.16/litre
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">MALAYSIA</st1:place></st1:country-region> RM2.70/litre


RM 2.70!!! Individual perspective:

As of last month a Toyota Vios would 'cause a damage' of about RM 89,000.
In the international market, a Toyota Vios is about USD 19,000
USD 19,000 = RM 62,700 (using the indicative rates of USD 1 = RM 3.30)
That makes Malaysian Vios owners pay an extra RM 26,300.

This RM 26,300 should be cost of operations, profit and tax because the transportation costs have been factored in to the USD 19,000.

RM 26,300/ RM625 petrol rebate per year translates to a Vios being used for 42.08 years.

I do understand that the RM 625 is a rebate given by the government, but it also means that one has to use the Vios for 42.08 years just to make back the amount paid in taxes for the usage of a foreign car. Would anyone use any kind of car for that long?

Now with these numbers in front of us, does the subsidy sound like a subsidy or does it sound like a penalty? This just seems to be a heavy increment in our daily cost of living as we are not only charged with high car taxes but also with a drastic increase in fuel price.

With all the numbers listed out, I urge all Malaysians to join me in analyzing the situation further.

Car taxation is government profit, fuel sales is Petronas' (GLC) profit which also translates into government profit. The government may ridicule us Malaysians by saying look at the world market and fuel price world wide. Please, we are Malaysians, we fought of the British, had a international port in the early centuries (Malacca), home to a racially mixed nation and WE ARE NOT STUPID!!!

We know the international rates are above the USD 130/barrel. We understand the fact that the fuel prices are increasing worldwide and we also know that major scientist are still contradicting on why this phenomenon is happening. Some blame Bush and his plunders around the world and some blame climate change and there are others which say petroleum 'wells' are getting scarce.

Again we go back to numbers to be more straight fwd

1 barrel = 159 liters x RM2.70/liter = RM 429 or USD 134

On 1 hand, we are paying the full cost of 1 barrel of crude oil with RM2.70 per liter but on the other hand the crude oil only produces 46% of fuel.

Msia sells crude oil per barrel at USD130 buys back Fuel per barrel at USD134. And not forgetting, every barrel of fuel is produced with 2 barrels of crude oil.

1 barrel crude oil = produce 46% fuel (or half of crude oil), therefore
2 barrel crude oil = approximately 1 barrel fuel
In other words, each time we sell 2 barrels of crude oil, equivalently we will buy back 1 barrel of fuel.

Financially,
Malaysiasell 2 barrel crude oil @ USD 130/barrel = USD 260 = RM 858
then, <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Malaysia</st1:place></st1:country-region> will buy back fuel @ USD 134/barrel = RM 442/barrel
Thus, <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Malaysia</st1:place></st1:country-region> earn net extra USD 126 = RM 416 for each 2 barrel of crude sold/exported vs imported 1 barrel of fuel !!!
(USD 260-134 = USD 126 = RM416)

So where this extra USD 126/barrel income is channeled to by Malaysian Govt???????? ?

Another analysis:

1 barrel crude oil = 159 liters.
46-47% of a barrel of crude oil = fuel that we use in our vehicles.
46% of 159 = 73.14 liters.
@ RM 2.70/liter x 73.14 liter = RM197.48 of fuel per barrel of crude oil. This is only 46% of the barrel, mind you. Using RM 3.30 = USD 1, we get that a barrel of crude oil produces USD 59.84 worth of petrol fuel (46% of 1barrel).
USD 59.84 of USD 130/barrel turns out to be 46% of a barrel as well.

Another 54% = bitumen, kerosene, and natural gases and so many more.
And this makes a balance of USD 70.16 that has not been accounted for.

So this is where I got curious. Where is the subsidy if we are paying 46% of the price of a barrel of crude oil when the production of petrol/barrel of crude oil is still only 46%?

In actual fact, we still pay for this as they are charged in the forms of fuel surcharge by airlines and road taxes for the building of road (because they use the tar/bitumen) and many more excuse charging us but let us just leave all that out of our calculations.

As far as I know, only the politicians who live in Putrajaya and come for their Parliament meetings in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kuala Lumpur</st1:place></st1:City> (approximately 60+ km) are the ones to gain as they claim their fuel and toll charges from the money of the RAKYAT's TAX.

It is so disappointing to see this happen time and time again to the Malaysian public, where they are deceived by the propaganda held by the politicians and the controls they have over the press.

Which stupid idiot economist equates rebates for rich or poor with the cc of the vehicles? An average office clerk may own a second hand 1300cc proton Iswara costing $7,000 (rebate = $625) while the Datuk's children can own a fleet of 10 new cars of BMW, Audi and Volvo all less than 2000cc costing $2 millions and get a total rebate of $625 x 10 = $6,250! Wow what kind of economists we are keeping in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Malaysia</st1:place></st1:country-region>...wonder which phD certificate that they bought from...

Misleading concept of Subsidy:

The word "subsidy" has been brandished by the BN government as if it has so generously helped the rakyat and in doing so incurred losses. This simple example will help to explain the fallacy:

Example:
Ahmad is a fisherman. He sells a fish to you at $10 which is below the market value of $15. Let's assume that he caught the fish from the abundance of the sea at little or no cost. Ahmad claims that since the market value of the fish is $15 and he sold you the fish for $10, he had subsidised you $5 and therefore made a loss of $5.

Question : Did Ahmad actually make a profit of $10 or loss of $5 which he claimed is the subsidy?

Answer:
Ahmad makes a profit of $10 which is the difference of the selling price ($10) minus the cost price ($0 since the fish was caught from the abundance of the sea). There is no subsidy as claimed by Ahmad.


The BN government claims that it is a subsidy because the oil is kept and treated as somebody else's property (you know who). By right, the oil belongs to all citizens of the country and the government is a trustee for the citizens. So as in the above simple example, the government cannot claim that it has subsidised the citizen!<o:p></o:p>

 

[lanevo6]

OH ya another thing is if Goverment subsidised the oil why is the price for Petronas and Mobil/Shell are the same?? Anyone ask them selves these question before? Or the gov so good too subsidised for all ??:hmmmm:

 

[DewA_LavaU]

OH ya another thing is if Goverment subsidised the oil why is the price for Petronas and Mobil/Shell are the same?? Anyone ask them selves these question before? Or the gov so good too subsidised for all ??:hmmmm:

Its because they using APM pricing (Automatic Pricing Mechanism). During early 90's when the oil per barrel price around USD20 the price sell to customer locally in Malaysia is consider a duty sales to Govt. But starting 2000 (if not mistaken) these duty alternate become subsidy coz the Govt are not able to absorb all cost of this oil so the duty price become subsidy. Coz oil company are not able to absorb the cost so need govt to subsidize it,else the price will be pass to customer and make it according to standard world market price.This from my understanding.Correct me if I'm wrong :slug::slug:

 

[papagoines]

Really... our govt veered off course...

Can't remember where i read about it but the late Tun Abd Razak once said that Petronas was setup to ensure that the fuel price will not burden the people...

 

[DewA_LavaU]

Really... our govt veered off course...

Can't remember where i read about it but the late Tun Abd Razak once said that Petronas was setup to ensure that the fuel price will not burden the people...

Hi broyes Petronas is custodian of Malaysian oil & gas reserves where protected under Petroleum & Hydrocarbon Act 1974. Petronas is responsible for all oil development within Malaysia. During early setup of Petronas the Govt has approved this enactment and paid around RM100 million in Petronas as initial start-up capital. Thats why where the GLC status came in. As time goes by, Petronas has paid around RM336 billion worth of tax back to Malaysian Govt since 1974. The question is?Where the hell this money goes & done by the Govt?:hmmmm:

To answer your question : Petronas was NOT setup to ensure fuel price will not become a burden to the people of Malaysia, it just we are only sole custodian of Malaysian hydrocarbon resources :) thats all :)

p/s : dont worry I'm not watchdog from Govt coz me oso vote for DAP as well hahahahahaha

 

[H22-C]

what is the number of barrel for dailly exported cruel oil, and daily imported fuel ?

 

[papagoines]

Respond from a friend who is an engineer in petronas... sorry for the manglish rojak used...all the fonts style, colors and size are same as the email received.

I have to protect the identity of the sender....

Untuk memastikan semua faham, Tolong Baca artikel dibawah.. semoga bermanfaat..

Dear All,

This is lengthy but please bear with me. This is worth reading through ALSO.

We're not actually comparing apple-to-apple here, as most countries listed have a very long reserve life (the amount of years they have till the oil is finished) and they have a low population compared to their oil reserve (hence they can cater to their own needs without any bother to the supply). Some research can do wonders instead of blaming others.

UAE
population = 4,380,000
oil reserve = 97 billion barrels
production rate = 2.5 million barrels per day
Reserve life = 107 years

Kuwait
population = 2,851,000
oil reserve = 99 billion barrels
production rate = 2.5 million barrels per day
Reserve life = 108 years

Saudi Arabia
population = 24,735,000
oil reserve = 260 billion barrels
production rate = 8.8 million barrels per day
reserve life = 81 years

Iran
population = 71,208,000
oil reserve = 136 billion barrels
production rate = 3.9 million barrels per day
reserve life = 74 years

Nigeria
population = 148,093,000
oil reserve = 36.2 billion barrels
production rate = 2.3 million barrels per day
reserve life = 43 years

Venezuela
population = 27,877,000
oil reserve = 80 billion barrels
production rate = 2.4 million barrels per day
reserve life = 91 years

Malaysia
population = 27,452,091
oil reserve = 4.8 billion barrels
production rate = 550,000 barrels per day (resources from internet salah. Aku kira production hari2, sila ikut nombor aku)
reserve life = 33 years

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Malaysia/Oil.html
http://www.malaysia-today.net/Blog-e/2006/03/petronas-profits-create-friction.htm

And the Ahmad fisherman notion that we extract oil from the ground without costs, or little cost, is NOT TRUE. Foolish, even.

FYI, to extract oil from the ground, there're 3 main cycle: Exploration, Development and Production. I wont go into lengthy explanation here, lets just have an overview of Drilling campaigns that needs to be carried out on all three cycles.

Drilling Campaign:
Rig: RM552,000 per day (minimum)
->We dont make rigs. We rent them. The deeper the ocean, the pricier the rig. And FYI, shallow waters of Malaysia is running out of oil. We are running the final race on shallow waters , have to concentrate on smaller pore-sized fields and taking the greater risk and more cost on deepwater fields.

Supply boat : RM 209,509 per day (minimum)
-> we need at least 2 supply boats.

Thats the cost of just two of many, many more items involved in Drilling campaigns alone. I'd like to reiterate that these campaigns occur in ALL of the 3 cycles, each campaign is at least 4 months. Do the maths or better yet, put it in a fancy Excel and publish it around.

Thats just costs involved in extracting the oil.

How about transporting it to shore? How about refining it for industries, daily stuff and for your car?

Some may ask why are we selling our oil, since we can use it? Well, here the answer: WE DONT HAVE MONEY. What else can we sell to make money? Tin? Gold? Pepper? Rubber? All these calculated together would not make even a small portion of profit in O&G. Our oil is of one of the best quality in the world because it is low in sulphur. Fyi, we dont need best quality oil for our cars, its only used in industries and in jets. In the international oil price is average USD130/bbl, ours would be close to USD140/bbl.

And then some might additionally ask, SO WHERE DID ALL THE OIL MONEY GO? Please refer to the statistics above, we have less than 50yrs of supply of O&G, although more explorations are aggressively being done in deepwater and smallfields. PETRONAS needs the money to ensure that we have the supply AFTER 50 years. PETRONAS is aggressively pursuing O&G projects overseas, and these projects does not come cheap. In other words, PETRONAS is not the nation's piggy bank, its THE bank for our children's children.

So please, do not be swayed easily by cheap-mouthed politicians who does not have the in-depth knowledge about how the process goes. If they say they want to use our oil money, please do consider our children's children. PETRONAS have been supporting the nation by giving back almost 60% if its profits.

Itu pakai cheap labor tu. Our skilled engineers, even often frustrated by the meager wages they get for risking their lives at sea, sometimes for weeks, still they stay and think of the country. I'm proud to say a lot of them are very patriotic. But also a lot of them are enticed by Middle East countries and others to work for them for more attractive salary. Nak recruit orang baru senang, but we have to train them and training takes 2-3 yrs!. Since we are running our last mile in our existing oilfields, we need experienced workers, and they dont come cheap.

Before this TNB also using subsidized gas from PETRONAS to generate power to all Malaysian to ensure we get lower electric tariff. But people don’t ask why electric tariff never reduce?

So next time any politician says, DUIT PETRONAS PEGI MANA?, better we ask them back DUIT CUKAI SAYA PEGI MANA or MANA RM58.1 BILLION DUIT YANG PETRONAS BAGI KEPADA KERAJAAN PADA 2007?

 

[lanevo6]

So its true we have a Grade A oil and we sell it 2x the price of buying again Grade C oil for our own use?

 

[DewA_LavaU]

lanevo6 : true :)

 

[papagoines]

So its true we have a Grade A oil and we sell it 2x the price of buying again Grade C oil for our own use?

Yup...

Read it in old issue of Autocar Asean, Chips Yap stated that most modern cars can tolerate such low grade fuel. even Honda Civic Type R and VW FSI engines can tolerate our grade C fuel. So for sure our national cars with engine tech lower than those cars can use lower grade.

I'm not trying to defend petronas or anything.... just to be sure that are we barking the right tree?

p/s: I guess this is my last post here. Just realise that I'm posting in MLOC section...I'm not using one... sorry u guys

 

[Stormvolution 9]

Nice to read all this here!!! And i think what papagoines posted on behalf of his fren are true!!! No offence taken!!! And i fully understand that as a consumer and Rakyat of Malaysia, its very frustrating that we have to pay high fuel prices as compare to others...

I think de Govt shld look into other countries where ppl r using Nuclear power, wind and other sources to generate electricity for their citizen in order to counter the ever upwards increasing oil price that the public are bearing!!! Something must b done to over come this!!!

As to where all the $$$ have gone from our Govt... I think we better dun waste our time discussing it... Hahaha... As we all know la... Even with the new political parties going up, i still doubt that they will b able to do a better job than our existing Govt!!! In Chinese we say: All Crows are same in color - BLACK, everywhere and anywhere!!!

 

[PabloIceman]

So its true we have a Grade A oil and we sell it 2x the price of buying again Grade C oil for our own use?

Govt sell 2 x or more to other countries .... & buy Grade "C" oil for domestic consumption ....

In the end the consumer buy the the so-called cheaper fuel .... & also top-up/fill-up their tank more often ......
because the engine consumes more fuel in order to get the rated output...

Try filling up with Petronas fuel & drive your regular route (take note of the number of kms u get out of a full tank).

Then fill up with a higher octane number fuel & do the same route ... u'll see the difference. In the end, u will get more miles/kms per liter from a fuel other than petronas.

 

[chriskhaw]

No need no nuclear power wind mill or anytihng like that la. Just sack the bloody Puki mak son of the bitch from his post can de. Stop sucking the ppl's money into their wives, son's and daughter's pockets to support the bloody big houses, luxury cars etc etc....

With the rise of every food and general item, my salary cant even fucking support. I think sooner or later..Bye Bye Evo!!! All coz of having the wrong ppl sit on his fucking jamban throne.

 

[DewA_LavaU]

agree with chris.those corrupted leader shall be eliminate first.they are pain in the ass!

 

[Stormvolution 9]

No need no nuclear power wind mill or anytihng like that la. Just sack the bloody Puki mak son of the bitch from his post can de. Stop sucking the ppl's money into their wives, son's and daughter's pockets to support the bloody big houses, luxury cars etc etc....

With the rise of every food and general item, my salary cant even fucking support. I think sooner or later..Bye Bye Evo!!! All coz of having the wrong ppl sit on his fucking jamban throne.

Bozz, I'm afraid whoever move up to the post will b doing the same thing la!!! Once they see the $$$ available, they will all become the same type of person in the end!!! Hahaha... Just look back to our history la...

 

[chriskhaw]

Bozz, I'm afraid whoever move up to the post will b doing the same thing la!!! Once they see the $$$ available, they will all become the same type of person in the end!!! Hahaha... Just look back to our history la...

I agree bro..but look at the situation now. With the rise of Petrol, interest rates for cars etc...food, consumer goods etc etc...

That will eventually increase CRIME RATE as a lot of ppl cannot even afford the daily neccesities. Once crime rate increase our country will be in chaos. Means more car theft, break in (RASUAH from police etc)!!..

Its a fucking chain reaction tht will happen is this donkey dun step down or removed.

 

[lanevo6]

Govt sell 2 x or more to other countries .... & buy Grade "C" oil for domestic consumption ....

In the end the consumer buy the the so-called cheaper fuel .... & also top-up/fill-up their tank more often ......
because the engine consumes more fuel in order to get the rated output...

Try filling up with Petronas fuel & drive your regular route (take note of the number of kms u get out of a full tank).

Then fill up with a higher octane number fuel & do the same route ... u'll see the difference. In the end, u will get more miles/kms per liter from a fuel other than petronas.

Yes its true, i stopped using Petronas on my evo for more than a year. I can get better milage and power on Mobil1.
Not sure how many of you had tired it? If not you better try and see

 

[lanevo6]

Malaysia standard of living is very high and low buying power. Wonder wat kind plan the stupid Gov have to boost up our economy

 

[DDgreystar]

interesting line of topic....btw.....recession....yes this term is back ....n dis time round even more than ever painful

 

[B18C-R]

Just checked, crude oil went down by USD4+ to USD130.....

But then, even if he goes down to USD80 or below per barrel, RM2.80 / Litre is here to stay.... :(