2005 German GP of Nurburg

[prodigy]

raikkonen did not suffer from a tyre blowup to begin with. it was the suspension that gave way after excessive tyre wobble that made him spun out. also, the reason why FIA decide to use 1 tyre per weekend, is to slow down the car. lap times have been tumbling downwards like nobody's business and in order to slow down these cars, they created a real dumbass 1 tyre ruling.

i wouldn't blame the FIA completely for kimi's failure because quite clearly he had the chance to pit in and change a new tyres but ron dennis and mclaren came out publicly to defend their decision in which both ron and kimi agreed to take a gamble by not pitting. pitting would make kimi lose ground on alonso and as always, kimi's a real fighter and won't lose tamely. in hindsight, it was the wrong decision but as always, it was a gamble that could have paid off. imagine if he had won, i wonder wat will the critics rave about kimi.

but of coz, FIA silly decision to come out with a 1 tyre ruling really spoils the sport. there are plenty ways to slow down the cars. the way i see it, FIA is backdating formula 1's technology and its quite silly to not allow cars to change their tyres and make these tyre manufacturers come out with extra millions on R&D to improve tyre durability. talk about cost reduction then.

shit, the thing that piss me off so badly is the way alonso celebrated as though he had won the race after starting from behind and overtaking 17 drivers with lots of hardwork and superb overtaking moves. if i were alonso, i'd be pretty embarassed to celebrate like that coz quite clearly he was not the fastest and best driver out there. he basically hung out, preserved his car and drove a consistent race thats all. don't get me wrong, alonso is a budding driver and quite likely the WDC of 2005 but he really lacks personality. its the aura that world champions like mika hakkinen, michael schumacher, ayrton senna carry, and its evidently lacking in alonso.

 

[GT3]

raikkonen did not suffer from a tyre blowup to begin with. it was the suspension that gave way after excessive tyre wobble that made him spun out. also, the reason why FIA decide to use 1 tyre per weekend, is to slow down the car. lap times have been tumbling downwards like nobody's business and in order to slow down these cars, they created a real dumbass 1 tyre ruling.

i wouldn't blame the FIA completely for kimi's failure because quite clearly he had the chance to pit in and change a new tyres but ron dennis and mclaren came out publicly to defend their decision in which both ron and kimi agreed to take a gamble by not pitting. pitting would make kimi lose ground on alonso and as always, kimi's a real fighter and won't lose tamely. in hindsight, it was the wrong decision but as always, it was a gamble that could have paid off. imagine if he had won, i wonder wat will the critics rave about kimi.

but of coz, FIA silly decision to come out with a 1 tyre ruling really spoils the sport. there are plenty ways to slow down the cars. the way i see it, FIA is backdating formula 1's technology and its quite silly to not allow cars to change their tyres and make these tyre manufacturers come out with extra millions on R&D to improve tyre durability. talk about cost reduction then.

shit, the thing that piss me off so badly is the way alonso celebrated as though he had won the race after starting from behind and overtaking 17 drivers with lots of hardwork and superb overtaking moves. if i were alonso, i'd be pretty embarassed to celebrate like that coz quite clearly he was not the fastest and best driver out there. he basically hung out, preserved his car and drove a consistent race thats all. don't get me wrong, alonso is a budding driver and quite likely the WDC of 2005 but he really lacks personality. its the aura that world champions like mika hakkinen, michael schumacher, ayrton senna carry, and its evidently lacking in alonso.

well i don think there are much FIA could do to lower cost.. when team wants to win.. they will find way to spend their money to improve the performance.. so on this part i agree with u.

secondly what kimi did or mclaren did which is not to pit him i think its right during the racce.. say whatever u want after the race but given that situation.. a racing driver will stay on n hope nothing will happen.. i bet they will do it again given the chance.. they will still take the chance n hope nothings wrong..

thirdly i m sorry but alonso deserves the win.. he set the fastest lap n even he dint qualify better than kimi.. that was down to the extra fuel he carried.. he drove much consistent compare to kimi in terms of laptimes and more carefull in the traffic.. n kimi's retirement was due partly becoz of the pressure from alonso which makes him loose his cool n drove with more mistake.. if alonso wasnt faster than kimi do u think kimi would react by pushing harder? i doubt so esp when he had such a big gap.. alonso won with speed, strategy and most impostantly luck which say whatever u want.. many champions have that with them too..

and lastly abt personality.. i have to ask.. what sort of personallity do u know abt kimi apart from the usual that he is cool? Just wondering how do u judge him.. frankly i read alot of interviews abt alonso n u will be suprise to read in those interview that he is full of personalities (from the way he talks and these are all proven by the way he drove).. cool, smart, aggresive, funny and hav really strong fighter spirit under him..

 

[BlackSamurai]

saw many drivers off the racing course, like Kimi, Alonso, Schumi, Ralf, and etc in 2nd half of European GP race, my personal opinion, single set tires rules is the stupid thing to blame.

Driver just can't get the grip at the corner.

 

[prodigy]

i respect your opinion on alonso's win but i have a different view on his win. i can only praise alonso for driving a conservative and consistent race, nothing more than that.

his best lap time doesn't reflect on his race pace and how much he deserve to win. to begin with, one best lap time doesn't mean he was the fastest overall. right before kimi's tyre problem, he was some 15 or 16 seconds behind. also, true enuff alonso qualified with heavy fuel but a competetive car that has qualified with extra fuel load should be able to close up or even gain a position after his competitor has pit a few laps early. this strategy is perfected by none other than michael schumacher who has done this like a hundred times to gain a position or closeup to the opposition. was alonso anywhere near kimi after he pitted like 5 laps later? most definitely not.

i doubt alonso was giving any sort of pressure to kimi. only reason of kimi's dissapointing retirement was he flat spotted his tyre while overtaking villeneuve and ran wide which made his run into the grass. looking into the race, few drivers smoked their tyres and ran wide in various corners. this leads me to think if michelin were having some kinda excessive tyre wear rate. they're fast but certainly not lasting. anyways, i have to disagree with you that alonso pressured kimi into making mistakes coz alonso was basically running a lonesome race and looked to have secured 2nd place. its the last 10 laps that alonso started pushing like mad after kimi showed signs of trouble.

i wasn't actually comparing kimi and alonso personality but more of the fact that alonso doesn't have the charisma that past world champions exudes. i dunno about you guys, but my perception of a world champion is someone who shows what racing is all about on and off the track. pushing to the limits of the car all the time, able to squeeze out results when it matters most, great overtaking abilities, great leadership, has solid technical knowledge and wins races!! i know michael or mika will not be too happy if a win was given to him. if you ever watched a race where michael won the spanish gp when mika retired on the last lap, just look at michael's expression and actions after he parked his car. of all world champions, which driver do you think is more well respected. jacques villeneuve or nigel mansell. both won 1 championship but ask the f1 veterans who they respect more. this is what you call a charismatic champion.

 

[butthead]

well i don think there are much FIA could do to lower cost.. when team wants to win.. they will find way to spend their money to improve the performance.. so on this part i agree with u.

secondly what kimi did or mclaren did which is not to pit him i think its right during the racce.. say whatever u want after the race but given that situation.. a racing driver will stay on n hope nothing will happen.. i bet they will do it again given the chance.. they will still take the chance n hope nothings wrong..

thirdly i m sorry but alonso deserves the win.. he set the fastest lap n even he dint qualify better than kimi.. that was down to the extra fuel he carried.. he drove much consistent compare to kimi in terms of laptimes and more carefull in the traffic.. n kimi's retirement was due partly becoz of the pressure from alonso which makes him loose his cool n drove with more mistake.. if alonso wasnt faster than kimi do u think kimi would react by pushing harder? i doubt so esp when he had such a big gap.. alonso won with speed, strategy and most impostantly luck which say whatever u want.. many champions have that with them too..

and lastly abt personality.. i have to ask.. what sort of personallity do u know abt kimi apart from the usual that he is cool? Just wondering how do u judge him.. frankly i read alot of interviews abt alonso n u will be suprise to read in those interview that he is full of personalities (from the way he talks and these are all proven by the way he drove).. cool, smart, aggresive, funny and hav really strong fighter spirit under him..

i respect your opinion on alonso's win but i have a different view on his win. i can only praise alonso for driving a conservative and consistent race, nothing more than that.

his best lap time doesn't reflect on his race pace and how much he deserve to win. to begin with, one best lap time doesn't mean he was the fastest overall. right before kimi's tyre problem, he was some 15 or 16 seconds behind. also, true enuff alonso qualified with heavy fuel but a competetive car that has qualified with extra fuel load should be able to close up or even gain a position after his competitor has pit a few laps early. this strategy is perfected by none other than michael schumacher who has done this like a hundred times to gain a position or closeup to the opposition. was alonso anywhere near kimi after he pitted like 5 laps later? most definitely not.

i doubt alonso was giving any sort of pressure to kimi. only reason of kimi's dissapointing retirement was he flat spotted his tyre while overtaking villeneuve and ran wide which made his run into the grass. looking into the race, few drivers smoked their tyres and ran wide in various corners. this leads me to think if michelin were having some kinda excessive tyre wear rate. they're fast but certainly not lasting. anyways, i have to disagree with you that alonso pressured kimi into making mistakes coz alonso was basically running a lonesome race and looked to have secured 2nd place. its the last 10 laps that alonso started pushing like mad after kimi showed signs of trouble.

i wasn't actually comparing kimi and alonso personality but more of the fact that alonso doesn't have the charisma that past world champions exudes. i dunno about you guys, but my perception of a world champion is someone who shows what racing is all about on and off the track. pushing to the limits of the car all the time, able to squeeze out results when it matters most, great overtaking abilities, great leadership, has solid technical knowledge and wins races!! i know michael or mika will not be too happy if a win was given to him. if you ever watched a race where michael won the spanish gp when mika retired on the last lap, just look at michael's expression and actions after he parked his car. of all world champions, which driver do you think is more well respected. jacques villeneuve or nigel mansell. both won 1 championship but ask the f1 veterans who they respect more. this is what you call a charismatic champion.

setting the fastest lap does not really turn it into a real win...Michael also did the fastest lap for Monaco...he did not win the race...although it was totally down to damaging his nose cone...

i agree with prodigy that Alonso did not preassure Kimi in to mistakes...at least not directly...Kimi is a person of high expectations of himself (in my opinion)...he is a driver who would push hard into the end of the race ......from what i see Kimi has a much better strategy if it were not for his tyres...and remember a lot of Alonso's opponent got practically wiped out in the first lap incident...i bet he was a happy man crusing round the track...talk about his luck this year...and Alonso did not seem to have the pace that indicated he was carying more fuel...

"what sort of personallity do u know abt kimi apart from the usual that he is cool?"...he is hot tempered too...he flung helmets, steering wheels after he crash out of a race...Alonso is nowhere better...giving the finger or some other sign languages sometimes to backmarkers or someone who is blocking him, excesively long...i sometimes do think of him as a sore looser...even he won the San Marino GP he went on to pointing fingers at Ferrari and BAR for cheating..although BAR was the only one caught with the light fuel tank...they really did not get any proof that Ferrari was cheating..

and to think of many said McLaren is the car which wears their tyres the best...but i do think the new rules never let the drivers to perform at their best...as much as i want to deny, it really do close-up the field but still i do not really find it more interesting...and cost cuttings is jus plain bull shit...how could making engines last 2 race cut costs...would building 9 more engines in a year cost more than R&D costs...most teams would need to majorly revamp their designs and think of lower end teams...they have low enuf budgets to make it through this year...and the next year they'll approve another crazy rule again...

 

[GT3]

i respect your opinion on alonso's win but i have a different view on his win. i can only praise alonso for driving a conservative and consistent race, nothing more than that.

his best lap time doesn't reflect on his race pace and how much he deserve to win. to begin with, one best lap time doesn't mean he was the fastest overall. right before kimi's tyre problem, he was some 15 or 16 seconds behind. also, true enuff alonso qualified with heavy fuel but a competetive car that has qualified with extra fuel load should be able to close up or even gain a position after his competitor has pit a few laps early. this strategy is perfected by none other than michael schumacher who has done this like a hundred times to gain a position or closeup to the opposition. was alonso anywhere near kimi after he pitted like 5 laps later? most definitely not.

i doubt alonso was giving any sort of pressure to kimi. only reason of kimi's dissapointing retirement was he flat spotted his tyre while overtaking villeneuve and ran wide which made his run into the grass. looking into the race, few drivers smoked their tyres and ran wide in various corners. this leads me to think if michelin were having some kinda excessive tyre wear rate. they're fast but certainly not lasting. anyways, i have to disagree with you that alonso pressured kimi into making mistakes coz alonso was basically running a lonesome race and looked to have secured 2nd place. its the last 10 laps that alonso started pushing like mad after kimi showed signs of trouble.

i wasn't actually comparing kimi and alonso personality but more of the fact that alonso doesn't have the charisma that past world champions exudes. i dunno about you guys, but my perception of a world champion is someone who shows what racing is all about on and off the track. pushing to the limits of the car all the time, able to squeeze out results when it matters most, great overtaking abilities, great leadership, has solid technical knowledge and wins races!! i know michael or mika will not be too happy if a win was given to him. if you ever watched a race where michael won the spanish gp when mika retired on the last lap, just look at michael's expression and actions after he parked his car. of all world champions, which driver do you think is more well respected. jacques villeneuve or nigel mansell. both won 1 championship but ask the f1 veterans who they respect more. this is what you call a charismatic champion.

i understand 1 fastest lap doent mean much.. but think of it this way.. would kimi push that hard if he knows alonso is actually slower than him through out the race? n i dint mean that alonso was pressuring kimi directly... what i meant was he was faster most of the time during the race n looking at his strategy if kimi dont push as hard as he can or he will be overtaken.. thats why indirectly kimi never had the chance to back off.. n hence mistakes appearing so often.. its unlike barcelona or monaco where he jus need to push hard during the first stint n knows victory in the pocket n relax after that.. mclaren n kimi knew that..


n abt ur qualities of a champion.. if u look at how alonso drive.. n i mean almost evry lap.. u can see his laptime is so damn consistent.. even when thre is traffic.. every lap is as quick if not faster than his team mates.. n considering his team mates was trulli n fisi now.. thats a mega performance.. n alonso is ablee to sqeeze out result almost evry race he take parrts in.. again u can look at his performance relative to his team mates.. n esp this yr.. u can see he never gives up his position.. defend till the end (imola, monaco).. not much attact this yr (renault is fastest most of the time means he is leading) but if u look at the races past few season.. he is even better at overtaking than montoya michael or even kimi.. n if i m not wrong.. renault team personnal including team boss, mechanic and engineers all adore him becoz of he give it all character.. he isnt that good in technical stuff like michael (which is not suprising.. coz even mika or whoever u can think of is not anywhere close to michael at that.. with the probably exception of webber) but if u read some of the interviews of his engineer.. u will know he is better in terms of setup compare to many other drivers.. n lastly no1 is happy is a win is given to him.. i remember the example u gave.. but there are a huge difference between that racce n this.. that race.. michael wasnt able to catch up.. mika was too fast that day.. n its a retirement due to engine failure (which again i think was mika pushing too hard n forget he needs to finish the race).. n michael won it due to pure luck.. however this race is diff.. alonso was catching up most of the time.. not as significant as 2 sec perlap but was closing in.. n when kimi hav prob with tyre.. alonso was closing in 1 sec per lap.. granted if kimi dint suffer retirement there are a slight chance alonso will win.. but thing is alonso dint give up.. he wants to catch up n overtkae kimi even chances are slim.. n his hardwork pay off when kimi overabuse his car n suffer the price.. that my fren.. is a characcter u see at most of the champion like nigel or michael or mika..

 

[GT3]

i agree with prodigy that Alonso did not preassure Kimi in to mistakes...at least not directly...Kimi is a person of high expectations of himself (in my opinion)...he is a driver who would push hard into the end of the race ......from what i see Kimi has a much better strategy if it were not for his tyres...and remember a lot of Alonso's opponent got practically wiped out in the first lap incident...i bet he was a happy man crusing round the track...talk about his luck this year...and Alonso did not seem to have the pace that indicated he was carying more fuel...

"what sort of personallity do u know abt kimi apart from the usual that he is cool?"...he is hot tempered too...he flung helmets, steering wheels after he crash out of a race...Alonso is nowhere better...giving the finger or some other sign languages sometimes to backmarkers or someone who is blocking him, excesively long...i sometimes do think of him as a sore looser...even he won the San Marino GP he went on to pointing fingers at Ferrari and BAR for cheating..although BAR was the only one caught with the light fuel tank...they really did not get any proof that Ferrari was cheating..

and to think of many said McLaren is the car which wears their tyres the best...but i do think the new rules never let the drivers to perform at their best...as much as i want to deny, it really do close-up the field but still i do not really find it more interesting...and cost cuttings is jus plain bull shit...how could making engines last 2 race cut costs...would building 9 more engines in a year cost more than R&D costs...most teams would need to majorly revamp their designs and think of lower end teams...they have low enuf budgets to make it through this year...and the next year they'll approve another crazy rule again...

well kimi is a driver that will give everything to win.. no doubt abt that.. thats why he wanted to keep pushing to stay ahead of alonso.. what i m trying to say that when he push as hard as that.. he make mistakes n therefore this race i don think he deserve to win.. too many mistakes.. and alonso opponent wasnt wiped out after the first corner.. in fact only 1 car or 2 was wiped out.. he still hav nick, jarno and dc in front of him.. all potentially slwer than him.. it was the worse case scenarion that can happen to alonso but he dint give up.. still chasing hard.. given clear air.. its possible kimi would not be able to extend a big enuff lead to maintant his kead after the fuel stops.. alonso's strategy was abit of a gamble compare to kimi's but hell! alonso have the pts to gamble..


hmm sorry but sometimes u wont know how much frusfrated u are when u are blocked by some1 esp u are suppose to be lapping the person.. i mean imagine u are in a traffic jam.. n u are abt to be late for ur work.. don u think u will swear when there is a driver in front of u still driving as slow as he could even after u flashes him? n well i think u could consider him as a sore looser if he looses n only pting fingers to others n put the blame on them.. n btw apart from bar themselves.. no1 knows if they really cheat.. i mean even though fia say they did but every1 is entitled to what they think.. n as for ferrari.. i m a ferrari fan n i don like at first when alonso pt n say they are cheating.. but what he meant was ferrari is still testing like mad compare to other teams.. ask any1 from any other team apart from ferrari they will also say ferrari is cheating..

 

[butthead]

well kimi is a driver that will give everything to win.. no doubt abt that.. thats why he wanted to keep pushing to stay ahead of alonso.. what i m trying to say that when he push as hard as that.. he make mistakes n therefore this race i don think he deserve to win.. too many mistakes.. and alonso opponent wasnt wiped out after the first corner.. in fact only 1 car or 2 was wiped out.. he still hav nick, jarno and dc in front of him.. all potentially slwer than him.. it was the worse case scenarion that can happen to alonso but he dint give up.. still chasing hard.. given clear air.. its possible kimi would not be able to extend a big enuff lead to maintant his kead after the fuel stops.. alonso's strategy was abit of a gamble compare to kimi's but hell! alonso have the pts to gamble..


hmm sorry but sometimes u wont know how much frusfrated u are when u are blocked by some1 esp u are suppose to be lapping the person.. i mean imagine u are in a traffic jam.. n u are abt to be late for ur work.. don u think u will swear when there is a driver in front of u still driving as slow as he could even after u flashes him? n well i think u could consider him as a sore looser if he looses n only pting fingers to others n put the blame on them.. n btw apart from bar themselves.. no1 knows if they really cheat.. i mean even though fia say they did but every1 is entitled to what they think.. n as for ferrari.. i m a ferrari fan n i don like at first when alonso pt n say they are cheating.. but what he meant was ferrari is still testing like mad compare to other teams.. ask any1 from any other team apart from ferrari they will also say ferrari is cheating..

Alonso's oponent's was not wiped off at the first lap...but most of them got blocked...which in race might be a real threat to the outcome...McLaren did the right thing to fuel Kimi to qualify on pole...at least it would have given Kimi clear air to start creating a gap...they jus never thought of the tyres wearing down that quickly...i'd say Alonso has a pretty uneventfull race...he jus went on with his own pace and waited for something to happen to his ...although i couldn't recall much of what happened in the race...was too busy keeping my eyes open...i think Alonso jus went cruised to his trophy...call it luck or anything u want...and i dun think there is anything wrong with that...like what Prodigy said...i dun think he should be so proud of himself...especially the part on the parade lap where he kept showing 4 fingers stating he had 4 wins this seasons...

i think many other drivers do not show their heated temper even getting blocked...it is jus part of racing...the ability to overtake is all part of the drivers skill...u can't expect everyone to jus move off the line jus to let u pass because they are a backmarker...they also have their own race and positions to run...

the finger pointing issue is always and will always stay in F1...2 seasons ago, Ferrari did it trying to accuse Michelin whiile 1999 McLaren accused Ferrari of barge boards irregularities after they won...even teams like Minardi got penalties if i remember correctly due to underweight...this i do not blame.. the problem is why is Alonso being so defensive giving he has such a marginal lead...although anything could go wrong in F1...this still is a lot starting to suspect on people cheating on you...

okay end with the arguments...now for some interesting stuff


"DC slams 'dangerous' tyre rules"
http://www.planet-f1.com/news/story_19747.shtml

"In one way the rules have been good for overtaking and entertainment, but there is no question that it is more dangerous," Coulthard told The Times.
"It is a major worry."

"The FIA position is that the drivers make the decision, but they are asking us to throw away our races by coming in to change tyres.”

"That would have happened to me. I could hardly see from the vibrations late in the race, but I couldn't afford to lose my fourth position."

even such a driver as experienced as DC worries about safety about the sport...where is FIA' safety concern which they are their main priority few years ago...is it going to take another driver, marshal or spectators lives to change FIA's rule on this???

"F1 supports new tyre rule"
http://www.planet-f1.com/news/story_19737.shtml

many still supports the new tyre rule even with Kimi's misfortunes...the most unsuspected was McLaren team boss Ron Dennis...

"Fans view"
http://www.planet-f1.com/features/letters/story_19720.shtml

 

[kapitan]

i wonder how the new tyre rules bring more excitement? as you can see for most of the time (except for alonso holding up MS in imola), those cars with worse tyre condition are just waiting to be overtake. Whats the excitement in that anyway? Probably those who interested in ferrari/mclaren/bmw overtaking a minardi would said so.. compared to last year, the cars are so much harder to overtake.. even ferrari had to use pitstop strategy to muscle a win until ppl think they are winning so easily which isnt exactly the case. Now more n more team are overtaking via perfectly judge pitstop... why ruin your tyres when you can opt for a much simple way to overtake your oponent...

another issue would b safety... these drivers are paid to drive...
their aim is to push their car to the limit each lap for the whole race and trying to push for a win... but now they had to slow down to conserve tyres...

 

[GT3]

butthead,

well again all these are due to different opinion by different ppl.. i think alonso shud be proud of that coz however u wanna say it.. he drive hard enuff and his strategy work better than evry1 expectation.. its also called luck but then which champion doesnt have luck? anyway like u say no pt argueing.. jus diff tot on the same thing..

 

[ahboon]

very dissapointed that day watch that race. i think they should ask kimi

to go to pit at least can get 2nd or 3rd. but it's ok mclaren got the pace

this year n still have many races to go.

 

[[Joc]]

hmmm.. this argument bout alonso having champion qualities seems fun! so my 2 cents are... alonso's a dickhead....
utter complete arrogant fool.. did you see alonso when he came out of his car? He was kissing his tyres!! front and back tyres!! he was kissing them!! and he said in the post race conference that it feels even better winning on the last lap only. WTF?!?! plain rubbing salt in wounds... hope their development plans stall for the rest of the year just like last year and they drop back behind minardis.... but obviously that's not going to happen.. hehehe... but i've never liked alonso since the day i saw him speak on tv. especially on his first pole and win... you can sense a lot of arrogance in him..... sigh... youngsters these days..

 

[GT3]

hmmm.. this argument bout alonso having champion qualities seems fun! so my 2 cents are... alonso's a dickhead....
utter complete arrogant fool.. did you see alonso when he came out of his car? He was kissing his tyres!! front and back tyres!! he was kissing them!! and he said in the post race conference that it feels even better winning on the last lap only. WTF?!?! plain rubbing salt in wounds... hope their development plans stall for the rest of the year just like last year and they drop back behind minardis.... but obviously that's not going to happen.. hehehe... but i've never liked alonso since the day i saw him speak on tv. especially on his first pole and win... you can sense a lot of arrogance in him..... sigh... youngsters these days..

haha.. a person is only considered as arrogant when there is nothing to show off abt but trying to show off.. for ppl that hav capability n they speak genuienly of what they think others that arent not as capable maybe offended and think that they are arrogant.. i mean u don say michael is arrogant when he quote he can win titles or when he say is a easy win or something.. jus my thought.. sorry if u get offended

 

[[Joc]]

hehehe... GT3 no ler not offended...
its my thoughts only... and u have urs...
no problemo.....