Strengthening B20 block

[acuralover]

Hi guys....i am looking to strengthen my b20 for occasional track use and drag. I am kinda of newbie to all these but have heard of ARP headstud, conrods etc.

What should I really go for to strengthen the block?

Experts out there please kindly advise me...thank you v much

 

[shiroitenshi]

Hi guys....i am looking to strengthen my b20 for occasional track use and drag. I am kinda of newbie to all these but have heard of ARP headstud, conrods etc.

What should I really go for to strengthen the block?

Experts out there please kindly advise me...thank you v much

There's not much that can be done to strengthen the B20 block short of sleeving it with ductile iron sleeves.

Other than that, the headstuds are to prevent loosening of the head and block as normal bolts would stretch quite a bit when running high compression/high boost.

conrods are for lightening (this depends on the company that makes it, some are stronger and heavier, some are lighter but around stock rod strength)
I-beam, H-beam, (Pauter-style, dunno what beams) are just some examples of designs they played with for weight vs. strength.

If for track, the only way your B20B is going to survive is if you go conservative on most mods, like no extreme compression in the 13SCR range, no crazy cams, no stratospheric revs, etc.

If for drag, I think anything goes in terms of mods.
_________________________________________________

Pet Peeve of the Week.
(What is it with ZTH, maintainance and lost posts?)

 

[Zeroed]

The basic necessity for a VTEC B20B to last is to atleast use ARP bolts internally and headstuds.

These bolts are capable of much higher tightenning torques than standard Honda's to compensate for the smaller bolt sizes, compared to VTEC engines (8mm vs 12mm if I am not mistaken). Prevents bolt-stretching at high rpms causing bearings to loosen and possibly spin, one primary reason for B20B VTEC builds to fail.

Another strengthenning process is posting, which is commonly referred to as block guarding as well. But this method is different, you send it to the machine shops to insert small posts between the sleeves and block housing to prevent the sleeves from stretching and deforming at high rpms.
Dont use drop-in block guards as those generally causes heatsoak and may lead to block failure as well.


While changing all the internals provide a much more reliable and high potential 2L build, this method is much cheaper, and people have been running such builds at 8000rpm revs daily with it lasting for more than 2 years, and still running strong.

Make sure you have the B20B block with the correct sized oil pump as well (Same as B18C). There is a version with a smaller oil pump which is not sufficient for VTEC application. Forgot more details about this.

There, what I believe most people in malaysia dont know about B20B builds. Done research for my build a while now...
I believe you plan to drag/track the car on a personal enjoyment basis?

If youre doing it on a professional level then youre already asking the wrong questions haha.

 

[shiroitenshi]

Zeroed, I haven't seen any b20b blocks that are posted in Malaysia as yet. I know Endyn has done (and advocated it a while back) but now with the advent of ductile sleeves, that's the way to go.

I'm also interested in posting my block, but dunno any shops that does it regularly.

I'm also curious which points they apply the posts, as there are locations that differ from builder to builder.

Another concern I have about block posting is block leakage worries. But as hp climbs, the maintainace bill increases exponentially as well :P

 

[jeheyr]

hem... nice thread.. any other suggestion to strengthen b20b?

 

[Zeroed]

Shiro, my mechanic has sources and knowledge for posting apparently (he himself is very technical and well versed in modern engine tuning, as opposed to undertree techniques). Tell me if youre interested and Ill refer you to him for discussion. :)

Im actually somewhat doubtful about the posting technique in Malaysia as well as it is rarely done and heard of here haha. Ive read that its only necessary to post on the 12 and 6 o'clock of the sleeves though (where the crankshaft-conrod movement forces is acting on)?


Im not familiar with resleeving techiques done in Malaysia. Is the whole sleeve replaced, or just a certain amount bored out and a new inner sleeve pressed into the block?

Cause if the entire sleeve is changed then we might as well work on B16B blocks. I actually thought of importing Darton sleeves and some pistons from US but... hassle and all kinds of concerns and what else other the money involved in the job (Sleeves and pistons are cheap though!)





Edit:
Oh. One more reminder in building B20B or all highly stressed B series engines for those interested.
Never re-use the headstuds in an engine rebuild. On highly stressful applications these will only tighten correctly once. Ive seen shops selling Used "Type-R" headstuds for goodness sake.

And never flush your high strung VTEC engines with engine flush products. Spoon-san said Nononono.

 

[shiroitenshi]

Just pm me the name of his workshop or post here and I'll drop by his place and have a look.

If he's an online person, then all the more easier for discussion purposes.

Posting is quite an old method, I think you can read the history of it when you search the net.

The strange thing, after visiting and looking at a lot of built engines in Malaysia, I've yet to see one posted. Usually it's the block guard.instead of posting

I understand that the primary concern to address by posting / sleeving is from the sleeves moving inside the block. due to the high rod stroke ratio run as we go up in terms of stroke, which give higher sidewall loading to the pistons and sleeves.

As for the your questions on sleeved, I've seen locally pressed sleeves, though I'm not sure how they perform.

I've seen a couple of Golden Eagle sleeves (the Godzilla range) and it's amazing how much abuse they can take. In fact, one engine actually ingested something and the sleeves managed to survive with minor scratches (rebored bigger to remove said scratches, even though the forged piston did have the hole the size of a 50sen coin.

One thing about sleeving though, is that there's always the risk of getting a coolant leak due to the sleeving process. (the process you mentioned is correct)

That's why if there's a shop that does posting, I'd like to know if it's successful as well. Personally I like the idea of posting because it's less risky (not to mention it does not inhibit coolant flow around the top of the block deck like what a block guard does, the area thatprobably sees the most heat, though I'm not even sure if the block guard can act as a heat transfer material, negating that effect so that's up for debate), so even though posting may never stand up to the abuse like sleeved units, it is another method compared to using block guards but when no one in Malaysia (as I thought before) uses the posting method, I thought that there must be inherent problem in getting it done right/properly.

That's why when you mentioned that there's someone doing posting, I'd like to see his work as well.

 

[shiroitenshi]

Oh totally forgot, sleeving involves major $$$

 

[Zeroed]

Inhibiting something is damaging... but inhibiting water, now thats a real test for the sleeves. ;)

Hmm if I remember correctly Darton sleeves replaces the entire sleeve assembly in the block, Thus capable of up to 87mm (!) applications. The head's dome size is a different story though. Ive known of pressing inner sleeves into existing ones but havent spoken to any machine shop or mechanic about changing the entire sleeve assembly yet, apparently that can be tricky.

Without taxes and shipping fees those sleeves could be sourced for a mere ~RM600 in the US, and 84mm is a piece of cake for those. Sigh all Honda modders should just move to the US. Not to mention energy suspension master kits cost only RM400+ as well.

To the people there earning US dollars these items are priced like a joke. Ahh where's the equality...

Anyway thats off topic. Yeah the block guard's heatsoaking cant do an engine good, hence my interest in posting. Ive pmed you the mech details. Ring him up and see if he's familiar with the process lah. I havent spoken to him in details.

 

[SePaT]

quoted from hondatech.com.au

on sleeving the block

took out all nuts and bolts before the process begin

decked it tightly before machining process

drilling begin.. removing all internal parts from the block

done on first part

final cutting on the block to to allow the new sleeves into it

done .. and now the sleeving part

installation of o-ring and lubricating

final says ..


ps- sorry for souping up the topic with the pictures.. hehe

 

[jessie]

B20 vs B18 block - same width?
What is the cylinder-to-cylinder clearance/thickness on each block?

 

[J101]

the cheaper ways :

- put a proper rev/fuel/speed cut on your ecu or ems so it doesnt blow during excitement of over revving.

- use oil jets squiters and oil coolers since heat is one of the 7 engine deadly sins.

- maintain 84mm and use a better and high compression pistons like wiseco and etc.

- since reliability is concern, get it tuned right for the specific event.

- torque according to ARPs spec. it may be hard to torque but just follow what stated.

same concept applies to all b-series. nothing much can be done unless budget is unlimited then u can build a bulletproof block and run racing fuel daily.

 

[jessie]

Is B20B head the same as a B18B (P75) head?

Do they both have a combustion chamber bore is 81mm ??

For B20, should we use a head with the same combustion chamber bore and as the block?

This question is for the guys who did a b20/vtec, did any of you guys do that?

How is it running?

how long have it been running?

The B20 is just a bored out B18B1 engine (i.e. 84mm vs 81mm pistons) - is that true?

 

[jessie]

84mm tube (bore) ------into a ---->81mm bowl (head) = ?????