Charges of Protectionism: Wikipedia on PROTON (Rant thread!)

[Vagabond]

I was reading through wiki's definition on proton, the last segment particularly caught my eye


Charges of protectionism
When the first Proton appeared on Malaysian roads, local wits promptly dubbed it (Proton Saga) the 'Potong Harga', meaning the 'cut-price' Proton. And for good reason. The Proton was at least 20% cheaper than non-national makes in the same 1.3 to 1.5 litre class. With both the price and a dash of national pride working for it, the Proton got a rapid hold on the market. By 1988 the Proton had overtaken all other makes and grabbed 73% of the passenger car market.

In 1983, when the 'national car' had been planned, Malaysia was selling just over 90,000 cars a year and the market was growing annually by 20%. The Proton plant was designed to turn out 80,000 units a year and could gear up to 120,000 units. But in Proton's first full year of production (1986), car sales took a severe dip to 47,000 and next year, due to the worsening economic situation, just 35,000. Only in 1988 did the market begin a recovery to 54,000 units, by now most of them Protons. Since then, the market has grown steadily to a 2005 peak of 417,000 cars[16]

Government policy has kept the Proton cheaper than other makes by the simple strategy of taxing the competition, while giving Proton exemptions from these same taxes. Duties on packages of parts for assembly into complete cars in Malaysia is said to average about 150%. Proton is exempted from most of these[17]

On 1 January 2008, the postponed-several-times full implementation of an ASEAN Free Trade Agreement [18] which Malaysia originally signed on to in January 1992 was to finally have come into effect. The agreement would effectively bar practices that discriminate against goods (including vehicles) that are considered “Made in ASEAN” by the use of Tariff and/or Non-Tariff Barriers. This would practically eliminate most of the price advantage, achieved by way of the 50% rebate Proton (and other “Malaysian-made” cars) enjoy on the hefty (75 to 125%) engine-capacity-related Excise Duty applied to new vehicles sold in Malaysia.

This rebate is largely responsible for the non-Malaysia ASEAN-made cars costing between 30 and 60 % more than an equivalent locally-made vehicle. With a “level playing field”, within the confines of CEPT[18] (which at the moment allows a maximum 5% import duty) using existing FOB prices, an ASEAN (Thai-made) Toyota would sell for within 10% of a comparable Proton, and would probably result in the devastation of Proton the company. It would appear that this is an unacceptable consequence to the Malaysian government, so for the time being, local car manufacturers will be allowed to continue receiving the excise duty rebate, with the Government picking up the tab for probable penalties it will have to pay to ASEAN members for the gross disregard of the Trade Agreement requirements.

As 2008 progresses, it is starting to be apparent that more and more global manufacturers are betting that the level playing field stipulated by CEPT will continue to be ignored by the Malaysian government for as long as possible. This has temporarily derailed these manufacturers' previous plans to use Thailand (principally) as their regional manufacturing hub, forcing them to reintroduce Malaysian-assembly of some models from CKD. This allows them to benefit from better tariff structures applied to such vehicles, in an effort to remain competitive (in the non-National car segment), and to narrow the price difference between their models and equivalent (Excise Duty rebated) locally-made cars.

It should be noted that the main “solution” mooted by the Malaysian Government over several years to maintain the pricing advantage of locally-made cars, by providing grants and subsidies (to counteract a removal of the Excise Duty rebate) would also be deemed to be non-compliant with the Trade Agreement, contravening Non-tariff barriers to trade requirements.

The lack of direct competition at Proton models' price points (in Malaysia) has allowed Proton, for many years, to continue selling very outdated designs, generally with scant regards to providing basic safety equipment such as airbags and anti-lock braking in domestic models. Additionally, J.D. Power survey results have consistently shown that Protons have poorer rankings in initial quality than the available competition[19]


"the level playing field stipulated by CEPT will continue to be ignored by the Malaysian government for as long as possible" = BLATANT !!!!!!

Shameless, absolutely shameless government policies.

Full Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_(carmaker)

 

[csl]

A lot of country also do this la. Only different is not on the car.

 

[NRC]

I agree. But it seems quite unfair to consumers / citizens. :wavey:

Bump: I agree. But it seems quite unfair to consumers / citizens. :wavey:

 

[Vagabond]

what blows my mind, is that the malaysian government BLATANTLY ignores and renege on the agreement they signed years ago!

shouldn't there be a law against it or something?

 

[nitrus]

what blows my mind, is that the malaysian government BLATANTLY ignores and renege on the agreement they signed years ago!

shouldn't there be a law against it or something?

You speak of law.. Against an authority higher than law itself? Pfft.

I've been down that road, being all frustrated of the upper. Supported a man who looked like he could change things. Saw the man got fucked again by the upper who tried to break him, again. Got tired of this shit and thought to myself, "Fuck it. However ignorant I may sound, things ain't gonna fucking change around here."

Can only hope for a miracle that a very good man steps into that seat, and changes it all. Which most probably won't happen anyway.

Save your anger and frustrations, my friend.

 

[csl]

I only know, if the car price down, more cars will be bought. More car, generally = more serious traffic jam and fuel subsidy will be greater. From here we split.

As traffic jam is worst, means less time to do things. Either we need to sacrifice our time or sacrifice the productivity (be it work or personal related). At the same time, finding a car park will become difficult too. Once a place packed, the results will either expand or tare off old one and rebuild new one. I don't think we have the financial ability to make the rebuilt fast, so expand. When expand for development, means forest reserves down. More exhaust gas and more people die of cancel, be it direct or indirectly. Makna will need more money to help and my wallet keep on shrinking Ok, there will be 5000 words essay if I still continue Stop here and let you firgure out the rest or chain effects.

More fuel consumption means gov need to fork out more money for the burning. No more money for other development. If stop subsidy, people will go on the street and riot. Foreign investment run away fast fast and KLSE drop like no body business. Company cut overhead in order to survive. the bad things keep on repeat and repeat.....until when your turn comes, then hug the your beloved car and cry.

Please note that I only put out 2 bad effects that any stupid people on the planet also can think of. The volume of actual bad effects will be a lot greater. Afta? My as*. Sign or don't sign also will die. When open the market, Financial, logistic, education and etc will be taken by Singapore. Natural resource will be taken by Indonesa & rice & etc goes to thai (+ the countries at the north of thai). What we have? Wood, flowers for export to EU and states . Our local market will be controlled by them. So, what we can do? As the goods price drop a bit, we have to either drop our salary or just maintain at current level and hope those foreign inverters not to go to China and hope Chinese in China forever don't speak english well. When oil finished up, nothing to support the economy. Thousands of peoples are queuing to apply for a same job. When the supply over demand, you know what will happen. And this is not the end, worst is coming. AFTA only good for us if we have something like silly-con valley, or something that can control certain sector. Everything has a price.

We are over pampered. fcking hel only know how to demand. if want to have a car or change a new car, work harder and smarter la. Every time also want free lunch. now our car price so freaking expensive, the jam and environment impact already such bad. Come on, don't be so selfish and self center. Maybe we can fulfill our urge at the moment. But we need to plan for our next generation. The country is not belong to us. In stead we are borrowing it from the future generation. Afta looks like a mighty sword. But if you simply play with it, you may cut yourselves. No doubt our achievement today is not that bad in ASEAN. But from various aspect, please look further and do some studies before complain about the delay of open market. Most of the rakyat is in working class, including me. We only earn enough for our living. Cheaper living cost no doubt is good. But things are not that simple as we think. And the unpredictable one is the most dangerous one.

 

[Vagabond]

Honestly, I find very little justification in maintaining over-pricing of vehicles as a deterrent for pollution/green-peace/etc.

The way to resolved deforestation and other ecological issues is through a change in life-style, not an increase of vehical pricing.

 

[csl]

If our rakyats are so good and have such great self awareness, then we can demand for it. But, the fact is just the other way round. Look at the plastic bags, look at how people wasting water and etc. They just won't appreciate the resources. For cars, last time the gov encourage peoples to share cars to work, so that the traffic jam can be improved. But at many shop lots, you can see the workers' cars occupy the parking more than the customers. The most entertaining part is, while they are complaining the car price expensive, they still have money to spend on mods, audio, bodykit and other accessories. When they are complaining the toll is killing them, but motorbike is more dangerous than die of hunger. Of cause, not to forget, nowadays youngsters can do even better. They can simply quit the job if don't like and complain about how bad is the economy. We had forgotten our culture. We had forgotten the great value of life that left by our ancestors. We also forgot to ask ourselves 'who am I'. Everyone just rush to the front line and keep on demand, demand and demand. What things we actually did for making this country more beautiful? What things did we do for making a better future? Oh yes, a Wajalution with 4" exhaust tips.

From the culture, economy, politic, hardware, and etc, we are still long way to get to the qualify level. If we continue the culture and country development based on unlimited capital expenditure without strong financial system backup, the risk is not anyone can bare. It may worst than what happen to some super strong country recently. That's why, control is very important. If the people cannot do it well, then, the country economy mechanism has to step in. Car price is just one of the things. It is not 100% the gov's call for doing this or doing that. The financial analyst groups and various specialist do provide data and options to the gov and the man just need to process the data and make a decision then execute. I guest no one will want a cheaper car but raise other vital goods or food prices that will heavily damage the low income groups' survivability in this country.

Why rakyat cannot live in a city with a bicycle? I guess many people will list out thousands of excuses to jaga their faces and cover their laziness or inefficiency.

 

[slick]

With the existence of Proton, imported car makes (Honda, Toyota, etc) are all much more expensive. Hence because of this shitty government policy, the rakyat has no choice and can only afford Protons.

Without the existence of Proton, with the same amount of money you would pay for a Proton, you can now get a Honda, Toyota, etc...
So NO, you won't get more cars on the road, because car prices in general will NOT BE CHEAPER.
Only difference is that instead of paying RM xx,xxx and getting a Proton, you will be getting a better Honda, Toyota, etc....
Without Proton, if the government want to control car prices in general for environmental sake, traffic jam sake, fuel subsidy sake, whatever sake, they still have control over car prices by playing with import taxes.

And if you think about it properly, we all know, compared to other makes like Honda, Toyota, etc...Proton is a very inefficient car. It is not fuel efficient, poor emission records, etc, and wouldn't this be worse for the environment, fuel subsidy, etc?

What pisses me off even more this the crap quality we get with Proton cars.
Nevermind that we are forced to buy Protons, we also have to live with paying for low quality products.

 

[csl]

Potong cars no doubt generally are crappy (but i think Sneo is ok). Pro2 also won't go anyway beyond (my bro acc in Myvi and car total loss, leg broke into 3). With or without their existence, car price will be raised once the road, the parking, the national fuel consumption and etc started to get to the limit. This is the control mechanism, same apply to any thing else. Without them, maybe the loan interest rate will be still stuck at 5-7% (CKD and imported need to low down the rate to compete with 2Ps' low price). Maybe also without the car tax, the petrol price will be long free float, where double or triple compare to what we are paying (sht, motorbike also kena buta-buta). I know there are quite some politicians' tech team being hired to raise the peoples' hate against the gov, so that they can gain the vote. But, since we are so freaking proud of ourselves, for being one of the most intelligent, most rational, multi talent people on the planet, why not just to spend a freaking 5 minutes to think what should we do if we are the PM and today, Cheras to KL need to jam for 5 freaking hours, Kuantan town to airport needs 2.5 hours and petrol subsidy burn the national income RM1268.39 every freaking second, and still growing every freaking single day. What? tell the Rakyats : "Come on peoples, the country is going to bankrupt if you all keep on like that". People say : you bankrupt is your own freaking business. If you dare to up the fuel price or the car price or any price, we are going to vote for another party. Yes, finally another party win, like selangor and penang things are going not bad as so freaking many 'not so obvious' things like cukai tanah and etc raised to compensate some 'sensitively visualized' things. In another state, people are so freaking happy to get their land to convert to free hold but selectively forget that they are the one who actually making the future generations have to suffer for high properties price. Some more need to pay more cukai tanah. But of cause, they themselves never mind, because they will tell you : "hey, I don't give a sht what the fck will be happen to anyone else, as long as my land can convert to free hold, I can always sell it for high price and the money enough for my children and myself. If I can let go at 3 millions, me and my children no need to work for the rest of our life". The chain effect of these things, I leave it to our beloved economist. But just need to remind them that our crude oil reserves cannot tahan very long. Same same like factory beh tahan (gonna close shop cuz economy bad), the manager father got offer to work 4 days a week (freaking lucky), and son wanna buy Leica M8.2 with complete set of lenses + a National Geo explorer backpack, for improve his blog pics quality.

Back to car, yes, created the 2 Ps are actually partially defeat the purpose. But don't forget, maybe part of your income is coming from them, be it direct or indirectly look at the scale (timbang) and figure it out. And don't forget, why so many nice car around but none is belongs to you. Is people too frrrrreaking smart, or you have no gud dddddam luck

 

[slick]

I am very sure, without a doubt, none of my income, directly or indirectly come from any of the 2 Ps.
In fact, it's the opposite, Proton actually wasted my freaking tax money and the rakyat's tax money when it made stupid management decisions like buying MV Agusta for 70 million euros only to sell it for 1 euro a year later.
Nice assumption you have that none of the ppl reading this thread have nice cars parked in their garage.

 

[csl]

Ok, selectively, choose the worst thing to talk about as per usual. From some people's eyes (in this MV case, I think most rakyats' eyes), it is just like saving up some money and throw them into rubbish bin. Very small amount of people will take it as missed investment, just like any other companies. Nothing to be so surprise. That's why share market always got up and down. As simple as that. Other that these people, there are actually another group, which contain extremely small amount of people, will take it as a political trade. Of cause, if the deal is that simple, anyone also can sit on the PM's chair. I only believe it was not that simple. This type of amount should be a something a little bit more complex. Maybe you can go to Tun M's blog and ask him. Jolok him a bit and he may give you a good answer.

Every fact that exposed came from the assumption that make sense. I have a 1993 made Potong, a CKD, a CBU and a V100 scooter at my car park. Bicycle inside house. If someone REALLY can afford a CKD or CBU car (not those 1/2 salary goes to car loan payment), and still wanna complain, what can I say? I just can advise him/her to get a motorbike, so that his/her life will have less frustrations. Be it involved with money or traffic jam.

Almost forget, my income is from oversea (tax free). I assume that neither direct nor indirectly involved with 2Ps. But because of living in this country, and the gov has big chunk of the 2Ps' shares, when come to the gov service that is consider FOC (eg. like Bomba, hospital and hundreds more), I had directly enjoy the benefit come from those people who indirectly paid by 2Ps without extra expenses. So I consider myself indirectly involved with them. Meanwhile, UK's life not suit me

I don't really wanna say the so call our national pride slogan is the waste come from a bull's stomach and the story behind is actually link to the country's economy structure building. But since almost everyone also likes to scold their own children for being such imperfect, I just wanna say: Don't let the imperfection covers the child's talent. maybe the child is not what you dream of, but you do not have a better alternative for the moment. The intention of the god to give him/her the life is only help you to build a better future. It never meant for conquer the world.

I don't know how much you can see, but if just wanna argue to defense personal's pride by selectively pick some points to squeeze in, then I give up. You can call me coward or looser or whatever. I don't care, as I believe I had fulfill my responsibility as a responsible forum user till this point, sometimes with some emotion expression . I agree there is lots of corruptions involved. But the corruption itself also generate some benefit, besides negative effects. Sometimes maybe technically call corruptions. But sometimes maybe is practically call strategy. Buy or don't buy the idea will depends on how you wanna look at it and treat it. Money channel here channel there. Many have lost themselves. What is life meant for? A nice car? Or head on to an unknown future that you believe it will be good? Whatever. I have no dreams. I just work my sht out to earn as much money as I can and keep on fulfill my urges that poisoned by the GT3 and D1GP/fomular drift cars' stickers while enjoying life in this beautiful country.

 

[Vagabond]

oh please , there are no benefits derived from corruption for the middle-class people.

i'm not suggesting malaysia to stoop to the extent of a full communist or marxist society, but then again, neither are we a full capitalist state.

the fact is, there are people working their asses off for a better life, and there are people who can't be bothered to get out of bed to feed their fat asses.

but corruption has never benefitted the honest working classes.

we're not only talking about corruption in the government, but other organisations as well, inclusive of semi-gov and gov affiliated ones.

the next time anybody you know want's to invest in amanah saham or amanah raya ....... ask yourself, who makes the decision on what these corporates invest in?

 

[slick]

With or without the 2Ps, Bomba, hospital and hundreds more will still be well funded.
Only difference is, without the 2Ps, we as consumers, are not forced by our own government into buying 2nd grade products.
The government has more than enough money to fund Bomba, hospital and hundreds more.
It's just the mismanagement and corruption that depletes the funds.
Remember that Malaysia is an oil producing country.
Which oil producing country in the world is poor? (exclude those devastated by wars).

Like yourself, my income has been tax free too. I have been paying UK and US taxes for a number of years now, and although their taxes are higher, I can actually see the money coming back to me in terms of benefits I get from the UK and US governments. What more, last year was totally tax free for me thanks to Obama's economic stimulus package :D

No one wants to call anyone a coward or a loser, nothing personal or emotional here.
No one is defending any personal pride here unless you feel that way.
Like the topic says, this is a rant thread.
Like every other ranting and debate, there's always 2 sides of the coin.
And the only way things can improve is to have the 2 sides, one to keep check on the other.
I take this in a positive way and try to understand your points at the same time.
Posting in this kinda threads you have to expect a lot of criticisms, and take it in a positive way.
Like yourself, I too, am fulfilling my responsibility as a responsible forum user, and a citizen of this country.

 

[csl]

We always believe what we choose to believe. But sometimes, when the ideal rules become restriction, then, he has to select whatever options left. Even someone said the repair cost of the house is too expensive, and don't even wanna move in (very famous hero in Penang). But what had happen? CAT system? Paid hundred over thousand ringgit to 'repair' the house and finally moved in. Can it be justified that repair roof leaks + some painting cost hundred over thousands in Malaysia? Or can I call it a corruption? So, if we keep on pressing and asking, what answer can we get? When money meet politics, always produce mysteries. Same thing to the 2Ps. Somebody may say potong quality is inferior. But someone may say not too bad. But from the latest visit to potong showroom about 4 months ago, I think the new saga quality is better than the new vios (E) that my mother in law just bought last month, after her Myvi total lost. She believe what she wanna believe, and i can't say the 2 little cup holder design can't justify the amount different that probably can buy another one for spare.

I can't tell what had potong done to the mid income group. But for sure tens of thousands low income (I consider RM2k is low) families do survive because of it and they ain't cheaters. Maybe we can run faster than others. But we should never forget that we are not in a 1-man-show. And we also should not put aside that the 1.x million of gov servants that need to eat + feed their family. Regarding the well funded gov services, , we should also need to know that more than 40% of our country income is based on the little black gold reserves that will be deplete one day. Got plenty and got too little will be easier than not too much and no at all.