Project Z Week 23: Spare Z31 Chassis

[[PIMPIN]]

I believe this post will be deleted and if it is, its a misuse of moderator privileges. I hope this stays up because its constructive, does not have foul language and is meant to express an opinion.

The reason why this project is phenomenally unsuccessful in addition to what our esteemed member BLaCkHoWLiNG has already listed is the fact that the reasons for which this car is being built keep changing.

When the project first started, it was meant as a ZTH tool for fund raising and charity related events. At this point, I was all for it and I would have eagerly helped raise money from corporates and individuals alike. Then, the scope changed and suddenly the goal was to build a sports car capable of God knows whatever speed for under RM50,000. At this point, I was already turned off by the project because at around the same time, I realized that this car is not owned by ZTH but by one of the moderators. Now, the goal of the project has changed yet again and its now to compete in some classic car championship or whatnot while flying the ZTH flag proudly on its rusted fenders.

Not only is this misrepresentation, its a disgrace and I believe its an insult to every single ZTH member who pays for their own mods. Some of us aren't well off, some are filthy rich but none of us ask for handouts. Especially when its to support a hobby or a passion of ours. If you're really passionate about something, you'd work your butt off to afford it somehow rather than coming up with some fraudulent scheme to squeeze money out of the members here on ZTH who have car maintenance, repairs, instalments etc to worry about.

It's not like you're agreeing to match RM1 for every RM1 donated even. All you've donated according to this 'temperature meter' is RM300. That's not even half of what other people have sacrificed in cold hard cash. Yet you could afford to go holidaying around Europe partying etc and you come home expecting handouts? Many of the people here have probably never been to Europe yet they have the dignity to pay their own way through life.

And even if this is all for charity as you had originally led us all to believe, what guarantee does anyone have that you'll even complete the project? Is Tom going to personally guarantee every RM donated and every man hour companies put in that you will see this through? Where's your Honda? Did you complete it totally? How long did that take? What's your track record with restorations? I remember you telling me "someday I'll reach a point where I'll be passionate enough to restore something yada yada" or something along those lines. Quite patronizing I must admit but I let it slide. Considering the fact that I've been in the scene slightly longer than you with just under a decade of RB engines and having had the pleasure of moderating Skylines Australia, I believe "that point in life" you're referring to has long since passed for me. For you, its time to grow up.

In parting, let me just leave you with this piece of advice. Call it a day. You just do not have what it takes to raise money. How do I know? Browse through the latest edition of Hypertune and Shift and you'll see how the Skyline owners raised money for charity and although I won't divulge the exact amount, all up it was more than 10x what you have raised so far. And we did it in less than two weeks. Why? Because its was for a good cause. People don't give to people, people give to causes. How do I know? Well, having raised money for quite a few years now for our privately run orphanage I think I know a thing or two by now.

 

[D7zul]

off topic a bit..

i think i know where this pic is taken from..

it's just in front of my house

i will take a look this afternoon

 

[[PIMPIN]]

Dear Kevin,

I don't think there is a need for this to be settled via PM or over the phone so no I will not respond to your PM. What I have raised is simply the 'goals' you set while soliciting for donations and I question the misrepresentation and changing scope. I believe I'm not the only one who wants answers and if you PM me explaining the situation or over a phone call then you are not being transparent as you are hiding things from the rest of the members of ZTH.

I won't paste your PM here so that you can keep whatever credibility you have left on these forums. But let me remind you that you've taken money from people and these people and businesses have placed their trust in you. You are accountable and let me quote "some things need to be kept off the record because it is detrimental to the build in a whole. and i cant disclose it fully" which is a direct quote from your PM shows that you do not understand the fact that full disclosure is non-negotiable when you're entrusted with other people's money!

Anyway, best of luck. We all have dreams just don't make yours come through at the expense of others.

 

[khoyos]

off topic a bit..

i think i know where this pic is taken from..

it's just in front of my house

i will take a look this afternoon

i also saw that car before, last week i passed by the workshop and the car is not there anymore...

 

[BLaCkHoWLiNG]

deleted for alim reasons

 

[- D i a b l o -]

I would like to spend some time writing my 2 cents as well. I clearly remember the first time I came across the project thread was in Facebook where this idea were brought forward. I pledged to start giving at the time because I felt that we should get the ball rolling..little that I know it would come down to this.

Now that the issue's solutions is addressed by Blackhowling and Pimpin. I would like to stress the point of having to choose a decision collectively and unanimously.Not only the selection sample is poor, I feel that the whole project is more like ,how we put .. "tangkap muat" ..

To have a better idea on the build you could have done more relevant research such as reference build thread..show us some examples of what kind of project are you going to undertake.

The costs of the project is naturally higher because this project is undertaken at a shop. Its running a business,not a charity, nuff said.

I also want to question the legality of carrying out such donation.Not only elements of accountability and transparency is required as explained by Pimpin, transparency in handling financial transactions where the funds are given by the public to you,accountibility is of the utmost importance.

Theres also an issue with the legality of such donation as unapproved fund collection as such will cause ZTH to bear the liability of permitting such collection in its forum and jurisdiction.

 

[Izso]

Hmm..

Allow me to post my 2 cents regarding the project, the non-believes and the donation concept, not specifically in that order.

Let me clarify first though : I've never really followed Kevin's posts until the other day when I came across the old Honda rebuild thread. Then later in the features section I came across the RM50k supercar beater challenge. I don't know Kevin in person and found the challenge interesting. I don't know what the original intent was, I just read "RM50k" and "supercar beater".

Having followed the Z thread from day 1, I believe he made it clear that the project will be a learning curve for him and it was the general public that suggested donations. Kevin got Tom's approval and he did exactly that. Posted up what needed to be bought, who donated and how much.

Having had rebuilt my car (not an old classic car), I know that nothing is ever what it seems. Original budget went from 2k to 9k in a blink of an eye because of things that I discovered along the way. This Z will be no less a headache and will probably require something stronger than ponstan to cure. Something this old and rusted will need a lot of body work and something that's supposedly going to beat supercars will need a pretty strong chassis. Having seen how Kevin handled his Honda rebuild, I'm suspecting he expected this Z rebuild to be equally "less painful". But now that he's bought a new chassis, this tells me the original Z is probably scrap or needs a lot of work (ie-$$$).

Blackhowling's earlier comment (in another thread) on buying a ready made and proven car held plenty of credit with me when he said it. But having said that - if I had bought myself a new car instead of rebuilding it, I wouldn't know what I know today about my car and cars in general. It was my interest and passion for the topic that made me want to DIY rebuild a car that had the timing belt snapped and cranked a few times after that in the middle of Federal highway.

Anyway - back to the point, the car will be partially owned by the major sponsors like Playhouse (did I get the name right?) who is doing up the chassis now. I suspect it'll be a showcar for the sponsors and whoever contributed to the car will get to have a go at the car. Regarding the small sponsors - it was a voluntary contribution. If you had doubts, why did you contribute? And picking on Kevin's lifestyle isn't quite a fair comment. Going to Europe is a luxury everyone can afford right after you save up enough! I personally feel his lifestyle should not be a topic of discussion here. However his poor choice of a car base is evident imho!

Anyhow, what's done is already done. Kevin isn't making any money out from doing this. From what I've seen the car and effort is purely his and the fact that he's sharing this is commendable. What's even more commendable is how members are reacting with some contributing funds, some contacts and recommendations and so on.

I for one would like to see this project to reach completion. I dream about classic rebuilds like a RX3 with wide body conversion and so on. But I know I can't afford the rebuild and to me buying a ready made one is no fun so until Uncle Toto sponsors me, I'll just be reading the Z thread.

 

[- D i a b l o -]

Anyway - back to the point, the car will be partially owned by the major sponsors like Playhouse (did I get the name right?) who is doing up the chassis now. I suspect it'll be a showcar for the sponsors and whoever contributed to the car will get to have a go at the car. Regarding the small sponsors - it was a voluntary contribution. If you had doubts, why did you contribute? And picking on Kevin's lifestyle isn't quite a fair comment. Going to Europe is a luxury everyone can afford right after you save up enough! I personally feel his lifestyle should not be a topic of discussion here. However his poor choice of a car base is evident imho!

Anyhow, what's done is already done. Kevin isn't making any money out from doing this. From what I've seen the car and effort is purely his and the fact that he's sharing this is commendable. What's even more commendable is how members are reacting with some contributing funds, some contacts and recommendations and so on.

I believe the discussion on his personal doing isnt the concern.fact

What I wanted to point out from all of this is justified that in the duration of all this,he went on a personal trip in which..transparency on the project funds should be emphasised. Any partisan reader without any vested interested cant deny the possibility of anything being misused without any clarification (bill,receipt,invoice) being given.

He wont be making any money out of this? An arguable fact due to the lack of transparency as well.. The earlier post brought out the issue of ownership of the car. Who actually owns it? Is it registered to a company? or an individual?

Kevin,please reply and address our concerns

 

[gobiz2]

Just would like to share my very humble opinion.

Let's look at the facts.

1. Kevin owns the car.
2. Kevin has solicited donations of money and parts.

I think the only way this project can go forward from this point is for Kevin to prepare and sign a legal document outlining the details ie. allowing donors access to the car and for sponsors to showcase their products.

I think even race teams provide documents as to the purpose of sponsorships/donations even when it's fairly obvious the car is going racing.

In this case, once the car is done Kevin could just disappear and enjoy his 50k supercar-killer and nobody would be able to do anything.

 

[ramsing]

Wow.....I was highlighted on this thread, and I"m still amazed that there are people who donate on the basis of trust.

Using ZTH to solicit public funds sounds like a really good plan, but why aim for RM20k, when you can get more? And when/if the project fails to materiliase, there's no T&C that the money has to be paid back. Unless all donaters are given a clear charter on how the money is used, and what happens when things don't work out. As P T Barnum used to say, 'There's a sucker born every minute'.

Saying that, I can donate my mini minor for this project. Since the Z31 is in bad shape, you can use my mini minor instead. You can restore it and make it into a track beast like Italian Job. Will be cheaper also and no need turbo. Once the restoration is done, I still own the car, the car will be parked at my house, but you can put all the stickers on the car. no problem. can put big big ZTH on the bonnet. Can masuk MSS also, classic car category. Sounds like a good plan la.

 

[Kevin Lee]

I believe the discussion on his personal doing isnt the concern.fact

What I wanted to point out from all of this is justified that in the duration of all this,he went on a personal trip in which..transparency on the project funds should be emphasised. Any partisan reader without any vested interested cant deny the possibility of anything being misused without any clarification (bill,receipt,invoice) being given.

He wont be making any money out of this? An arguable fact due to the lack of transparency as well.. The earlier post brought out the issue of ownership of the car. Who actually owns it? Is it registered to a company? or an individual?

Kevin,please reply and address our concerns

the personal trip was already booked prior to me joining zerotohundred. ive booked everything, in advance, since last year october, for my trip in july this year. tom hired me in the first place after reading how passionate i was towards the honda project. the money has always been transparent, thats the reason why the cash termometer is there for a reason. thats the reason why the thread is updated every week to disclose what has been done. i do hold most of the receipts relating to the car, even the towing costs that allowed the car to be towed there. so far, there is no cost to the car, excpet the purchase of the car. rm500 was used to pay for the spare chassis out of the rm4500, which the rest had to be loaned in advance.

honestly, i am making a loss in this, but for the sake of continuity, i am doing it. i can be a selfish guy and not share any of my builds. no one pays or reimburses my travel costs to various shops who suggested that they might want to sponsor. some went along, some backed off. cant hold it against them. i have to ring up everyone, using my own phone costs. if anything needs to be clarified, u have to talk to tom. honestly, by sharing these, i had people approach me for parts, even in my honda s600 restoration.

yes, i will own the car. this is because. i only have 1 name in my car, and that is the honda. tom has 3 cars in his name and i dont think he will be interested in having a 4th one. so this was discussed from the start. there must be a legal owner for the car. i suggested this project ages by email to tom and he agreed to it. i could have just returned the car and claim customer complaints tribunal for the misrepresented condition of the car i bought, but too much has been done. i have to give good faith to people to continue on the project and that the sponsors involved would not be getting bad rep from my uncompleted project. i am doing everything it takes to be responsible and finish the project.

everyone has a sense of worth and measurement whether if it is worth it. i believe if you followed me 1 day in my life, u would see how committed i have been to the project. we are all people from the internet, we never met. so a lot of these are assumptions based on actions. i dont deny doing wrong, but what happened to good faith?

i have a lot of things going on in life and im having my exams next month. the project has slowed down a bit, but i have to juggle my life a little bit here!

 

[BLaCkHoWLiNG]

Ramsing: screw u! that mini u have is gonna be mine! LoL..

 

[- D i a b l o -]

the personal trip was already booked prior to me joining zerotohundred. ive booked everything, in advance, since last year october, for my trip in july this year. tom hired me in the first place after reading how passionate i was towards the honda project. the money has always been transparent, thats the reason why the cash termometer is there for a reason. thats the reason why the thread is updated every week to disclose what has been done. i do hold most of the receipts relating to the car, even the towing costs that allowed the car to be towed there. so far, there is no cost to the car, excpet the purchase of the car. rm500 was used to pay for the spare chassis out of the rm4500, which the rest had to be loaned in advance.

honestly, i am making a loss in this, but for the sake of continuity, i am doing it. i can be a selfish guy and not share any of my builds. no one pays or reimburses my travel costs to various shops who suggested that they might want to sponsor. some went along, some backed off. cant hold it against them. i have to ring up everyone, using my own phone costs. if anything needs to be clarified, u have to talk to tom. honestly, by sharing these, i had people approach me for parts, even in my honda s600 restoration.

yes, i will own the car. this is because. i only have 1 name in my car, and that is the honda. tom has 3 cars in his name and i dont think he will be interested in having a 4th one. so this was discussed from the start. there must be a legal owner for the car. i suggested this project ages by email to tom and he agreed to it. i could have just returned the car and claim customer complaints tribunal for the misrepresented condition of the car i bought, but too much has been done. i have to give good faith to people to continue on the project and that the sponsors involved would not be getting bad rep from my uncompleted project. i am doing everything it takes to be responsible and finish the project.

everyone has a sense of worth and measurement whether if it is worth it. i believe if you followed me 1 day in my life, u would see how committed i have been to the project. we are all people from the internet, we never met. so a lot of these are assumptions based on actions. i dont deny doing wrong, but what happened to good faith?

i have a lot of things going on in life and im having my exams next month. the project has slowed down a bit, but i have to juggle my life a little bit here!

Now lets go back to square one. Just read your reply and in good faith,I am going to try and explain what we expect you to answer. After all faith is given to the deserving..after all that you've done..might as well I try to show some faithfulness in trying to address the problem.

Yeap I got your PM too..its not me you need to answer to I didnt donate anything. Put the answers out here for us to see so then more donation might come for the project.

Tom hired you? Are you paid to do this? What is your position in ZTH and are you legally able to represent ZTH?

We dont need to know Tom has 3 cars and all.. Now it is clear that you are the owner of the car. We are not implying you'll run away with the car or what lah.. Faith ma

But what is the insurance that that wont happen?..in accounts ah..no matter how good the paymaster is there is Provision for Bad Debts.. memang expect to happen..doesnt mean it will happen ma.. correct or not?

Its okay if you got exams..all if not most of us are working also..semua pun ada kerja wan we understand if you are busy. We are not addressing you ma..we're addressing the problem which is the method that you are handling the project.

Read the questions posed by the others and then answer it objectively..list down what is the solution to the problem..things like after the car done who gonna own it..if you then how is it ZTH's car?

How the objective from donation charity became racing in classic series.. not saying its wrong ma..but how come leh..explain la here.. is it an additional plan ke..main plan ke..

self praise is no praise ma..let us praise you bro..show us what you've done properly..black and white do this get what do that get this.. then for sure we'll support you. All of us also got money..we also have dreams..if the Skyline club can make buka puasa trip to orphanage and raise funds in 2 weeks..we also can do what.. as long as its for a good cause.

 

[BLaCkHoWLiNG]

Hmm..

Allow me to post my 2 cents regarding the project, the non-believes and the donation concept, not specifically in that order.

Let me clarify first though : I've never really followed Kevin's posts until the other day when I came across the old Honda rebuild thread. Then later in the features section I came across the RM50k supercar beater challenge. I don't know Kevin in person and found the challenge interesting. I don't know what the original intent was, I just read "RM50k" and "supercar beater".

Having followed the Z thread from day 1, I believe he made it clear that the project will be a learning curve for him and it was the general public that suggested donations. Kevin got Tom's approval and he did exactly that. Posted up what needed to be bought, who donated and how much.

Having had rebuilt my car (not an old classic car), I know that nothing is ever what it seems. Original budget went from 2k to 9k in a blink of an eye because of things that I discovered along the way. This Z will be no less a headache and will probably require something stronger than ponstan to cure. Something this old and rusted will need a lot of body work and something that's supposedly going to beat supercars will need a pretty strong chassis. Having seen how Kevin handled his Honda rebuild, I'm suspecting he expected this Z rebuild to be equally "less painful". But now that he's bought a new chassis, this tells me the original Z is probably scrap or needs a lot of work (ie-$$$).

Blackhowling's earlier comment (in another thread) on buying a ready made and proven car held plenty of credit with me when he said it. But having said that - if I had bought myself a new car instead of rebuilding it, I wouldn't know what I know today about my car and cars in general. It was my interest and passion for the topic that made me want to DIY rebuild a car that had the timing belt snapped and cranked a few times after that in the middle of Federal highway.

Anyway - back to the point, the car will be partially owned by the major sponsors like Playhouse (did I get the name right?) who is doing up the chassis now. I suspect it'll be a showcar for the sponsors and whoever contributed to the car will get to have a go at the car. Regarding the small sponsors - it was a voluntary contribution. If you had doubts, why did you contribute? And picking on Kevin's lifestyle isn't quite a fair comment. Going to Europe is a luxury everyone can afford right after you save up enough! I personally feel his lifestyle should not be a topic of discussion here. However his poor choice of a car base is evident imho!

Anyhow, what's done is already done. Kevin isn't making any money out from doing this. From what I've seen the car and effort is purely his and the fact that he's sharing this is commendable. What's even more commendable is how members are reacting with some contributing funds, some contacts and recommendations and so on.

I for one would like to see this project to reach completion. I dream about classic rebuilds like a RX3 with wide body conversion and so on. But I know I can't afford the rebuild and to me buying a ready made one is no fun so until Uncle Toto sponsors me, I'll just be reading the Z thread.

Iszo: i applaud your initiatives to learn the skills on working at things that you love, i.e. through your sweat and blood DIY sessions on your cars.. However, the different thing is, you are doing it with your dough, u aint asking for public donations or pestering car clubs for parts donations..(i'm not claiming the TS did..).. hence it's out of your own blood, sweat and hard earned money...

The next thing is, like the veteran Joeker said, where is this vehicle parked? It should be parked at Tom's office, not at the TS' home. Do you see F1 cars parked at the driver's home? or do you see MSS sponsored race cars parked at the driver's home?

It was mentioned that 'i've written numerous proposals to this and that but no reply'... what sort of confidence do we, the members who stoodby ZTH from day one till now have on a person who starts a project by selecting a wrong rusted chassis and go find another one and simply add a nice thermometer asking for donations? think money is like shit, just squat and push.. it'll come out? no! So proposal, where is it? secretive? if yes, dont ask fr donation.. to who? secretive? why? u ask ah long for sponsor ah? on the door it says "See, My car fast bai!! Why? Coz i rushing to collect my money !"... or from who? ah long victim annonymous? "My car fast baii!! Why? Coz i running away from ah long baiiii"...


I may be one voice on this topic.. but i do not stand alone on this dimension of mine where 'the unbelievers' reside... you may delete my post but you will fail to disintegrate the fires of disbelief that burns within us

 

[Kevin Lee]

i must be privy in this. tom has told me not to divulge anything in the public, with that u will have to accept the fact he has hired me, for a minimum period of 2 years. however, this works like this. all the pay i get goes into the repayment of the car. why would i honestly waste my precious time in writing for zth, where i can go out and take more sleep even. all the money i get, goes back into the bank loans ive loaned under my name. i take all the risks. if i run away, then tom can stop hiring me and i still owe the bloody bank. who the hell writes for free anyways? im doing this in a form of charity, to educate the crowd about motorvehicles. yet, people tend to jump a few threads and not see what ive told in the past 24 weeks. its a shame.

tom has provided me a platform, in this case, zerotohundred to ask for around for sponsors to build up this project. i suggested him this project since i believe no one has undertaken this approach. call it bold and stupid, we learn thru mistakes

i believe, people have been mispresented from day 1. the problem stems from people who has never met me personally. so far ive met tom twice in real life. i tell him how enthusiastic that i want to show the motorsport to everyone. no one paid for me, when i went on the autobahn, i paid my own money and own petrol. i shared my experience on zth on good faith, so people could do the same too. yet all this i am getting, is people thinking im splurging their money. good job.

i know certain people from the skyline community is viewing me very negatively, because i seem to be getting all the financial benefits from the build, but what they dont go thru, is the pain of getting dissapointments all the time. one ring call, and my heart sinks, they tell me this problem and that problem. what can i do? i just push thru. people here being happy keyboard warriors only think im doing the same, i only wish they could see in life how i had to wade thru all of this.

diablo, its appreciated if u read thru from week 1. what i said was "things we could do". they werent promises, but i will deliver them whenever possible. i mean, in case i have other emergencies to attend to, then i cant do that right? as i said, all in good faith.

have i failed to deliver so far? have i so called brought up scams on people? i believe people have to really understand my situation to comment me further. the only reason i answered u, diablo is that, people on here has a certain opinion about me on the project.

i hope that u are neutral and see where i am coming from. to answer all this, it takes time, typing and thinking what to say, not to offend