Skunk 2 Intake Manifold ! ORI or Fake ?

[TheSquee]

Hey guys i wanna find out from you all what you think about getting a skunk2 intake manifold whether it MUST be ORI or can it be a fake one ?

I know most would say go for the real thing but i have seen pictures of the slight uneven-ness of the finishing on the fake ones but is there a noticable difference in performance till its worth paying nearly double for ? Lets not use words to proof this if any have seen a dyno comparison of the two please do share :)

and one more thing is porting a fake one to make it as smooth as the original one alright , as in material wise is it workable to be ported ? cost of it well lets just say i ahve my ways of getting it for free.. :)

Thanks do advice !

 

[boi]

its depend to your pocket bro...

 

[mADmAN]

yes the fakes can be ported....but one main reason most people still want the ori is coz the TB section can be ported to 70mm unlike the fake which iinm up to 68mm mebbe less. about the same as an original type r intake manifold

and most people opt for 70mm TBs..

go here: Pro Series Intake Manifold Clone Alert - Skunk2 Racing

read the differences and advantages/disadvantages....also make sure to click on the pictures and read the descriptions.. should give u a better idea

 

[TheSquee]

I've read from overseas websites the original B16A p30 intake manifold performs on par with the SKUNK2 intake manifold.. but Skunk2 is superior above 8,000rpm..

Okay seems like im thinking of not getting a skunk2 manifold after all.. But a ported p30 IM with a slightly oversize throttle body would be good right ? Could you shed some light on TBs ?

Some people mentioned that 70mm is an overkill if you are running stock internals and cams.. even at most they go from 60mm>62mm/64mm and port match to their intake manifold

 

[mADmAN]

i think if ur on stock B16A then imho a Type R intake setup would be good...

u can get the TB, IM, fuel rail and injectors 1 shot sold in a package at a decent price iirc.

not too big for a stock B16A

 

[TheSquee]

Which type R manifold are talkin about ? B16B or B18c Type R?

Hmm thinking which is best right now.. And as for cams I was planning to change to B16B cams currently using a B16A Auto Cam. What you think ?

 

[ddv_nk12]

I would suggest you to use the ITR B18C IM. I upgraded from B16 IM to B18C IM with 70mm TB. I am happy with the outcome. Many say that ITR IM can't be ported to 70mm but my tuner did it for me. He actually showed me with a ruler when I asked him that. Whether it's reliable or not, I wouldn't know. But it has been a few months now, I have no complains.

 

[mADmAN]

in terms of IM both type r has the same IM... not sure about the tb though...but i guess its the same as well..

yeah...go for the b16b cams...or the B18C-R cams oso can

 

[TheSquee]

Guys how much roughly is ITR Mani with TB , Fuel Rail , Injectors ?
I live in PJ have no idea a chop shop that mainly have honda stuff and is reasonable in price.. Could someone give me some places :)
And also im planning to upgrade my cams to B18C type R cams , is there any way of checking if its a B18C type R cam? And usually with valve retainers and springs usually how much ?

What is the purpose of having an adjustable cam pulley ?

And last but not least.. I feel my car is very sluggish in terms of normal pick up like very draggy.. I had a fuel pump problem as it was failing and injectors were working too hard.. Changed to some cap ayam "JASMA Hi-FLOW fuel pump 255lph" SERIOUSLY RUBBISH used it and hentam for a week or so , fuel pump failed car couldnt start =_= Now using a used b16 fuel pump.. Correct me if im wrong but in the US many honda freaks say that using Walbro Fuel Pumps are an overkill for moderate build engines as the Type R fuel pumps are way more than sufficient.. I am deciding to go for the original Honda Type R fuel pump NEW ( if can get ? can ah ? ) or go get a fake Walbro -_-

Please advice sifus.. hope you be patient as i have a lot of questions..

 

[ddv_nk12]

ITR Mani with TB , Fuel Rail , Injectors iirc should be about RM700-RM800.

I am not very familiar with PJ chop shops.

B18CR cams are good, of course not on par as other aftermarket cams.

How to check? Need to take it out to check. By just removing the head cover would be difficult to confirm anything.

Adjustable cam pulley allows you to fine tune the amount of air going into the petrol chamber. This can help increase the power. 2 things you can do retard or advance. Retard gives you more top end, advance gives you better pick up. Too advance will cause engine knocking. Too retard no pick up.

Sluggishness was a problem I had. Well, based on what I know which is very little, tuning helps with sluggishness. My car was sluggish too until I tuned my car. Feels much better now. I am not sure about the fuel pump, haven't gone there with my car. Hehe.

I believe you can get a new Type R fuel pump. But it may be costly. I checked for price for B18CR IM and he price is 2 times more than a used one. No harm in checking though. Just an advice, stick with original stuff bro. I know its just my view but I try to stay away from fake ones, so I really wouldn't recommend a fake Walbro.

Hope this helps. Should hear more from the real sifu's. Maybe my sifu madman and ad_eg can explain better and correct me as well.

 

[mADmAN]

go to mudah.my and search for user jebon71. he should have the cams and IM u need

as for sluggish...possibly coz ur on auto right?

 

[mysayasan]

I would suggest you to use the ITR B18C IM. I upgraded from B16 IM to B18C IM with 70mm TB. I am happy with the outcome. Many say that ITR IM can't be ported to 70mm but my tuner did it for me. He actually showed me with a ruler when I asked him that. Whether it's reliable or not, I wouldn't know. But it has been a few months now, I have no complains.

For stock b16a, i would agree with madman. Just go with type-r manifold, 18cr and 16b are almost identical depends on mfg year. But ITR and CTR tb is a bit different, 62mm (ctr) and 64mm(itr) if not mistaken.

I WOULD NOT suggest to bore ITR/CTR manifold to 70mm, the wall between iacv inlet and intake inlet will be too damn thin (if you are lucky the wall is still intact when the machine shop bore the manifold) 68mm is max..ive done this before and measure it with mitutoyo caliper).. and whats the purpose of getting a 70mm TB for a stock b16a.. it will overflow and retuning the ecu is needed. You will sacrifice low and mid range power for sure..

 

[stingg]

Retuning is not needed if you port yr TB because B series uses MAP sensor in the IM itself. If the flow becomes more, the vacuum reading becomes lesser and it will dump the right amount of fuel according to its map.

I'm running stock fuel pump on my turbo civic until recently and I can tell you its more than enough. The amount of fuel delivery is actually limited by the injector on our honda as honda like to match the injector very close to its max duty cycle. you have 2 option to increase fuel delivery.
1) increase fuel pressure (stock pump actually flows lower fuel at higher pressure) but you will need to upgrade yr fuel pump or
2) just change injector to H22A, make sure the impedance is the right match

you can read more on hondata website where they do studies on the flowrate of stock honda fuelpump.
Tech - Fuel Delivery

 

[mysayasan]

In closed loop, ecu will recalculate the amount of air and fuel that needed to be supply, you are right on that. But the thing is, does the ecu know what's your exact air fuel ratio? Our stock sensor is a narrowband sensor which can only be precise on 14.6:1 afr. ECU can control the fuel injector, but cannot control the pressure inside the intake manifold itself (imagine turbo car running on stock injector, do you think ecu can calculate for you), and by changing from b16a injector which is (~240cc) to h22a injector (~330cc) without tuning, means your ecu still claimed that you are using 240cc injector and im pretty sure that your FC would be sky high, as for stock b16a bottom, it will be flooded. But if running to lean (stock injector) like you said

The amount of fuel delivery is actually limited by the injector on our honda as honda like to match the injector very close to its max duty cycle.

And i dont see how the injector can supply more fuel by your statement there, .. i wouldnt surprise if the engine starts to knock. Instead of burning fuel, it blows, and blows are not good for gasket and cylinder sleeves.

And h22a got 2 types of injector
1. Peak and Hold (must use resistor box, or you will blow your ecu) (~330cc)
2. Saturated (Plug n Play) (~290cc)

Do it right, you wont regret. Reliability is the most important for a street car.

 

[stingg]

I'm not talking bout closed loop operation.

Honda fuel map is rpm vs manifold pressure. So for example at 3000rpm -0.5bar value is 200, -0.2bar value is 300. Now with stock TB diameter you press the pedal say it open by 2 degree and intake manifold pressure is at -0.5 bar. so it will open the injector for 200. but say you bore the TB and 2 degree will cause more air flow -0.2bar it will look for the value 300. So there is no retuning needed because it is all in the map already.

Anyway What I want to say bout the fuel delivery is the fuel system is compromised these few set critical item. Fuel pump - fuel line - fuel rail - injector. The max fuel delivery is limited by either of the 4. What I can say is for B series the injector is the limiter in this case.

As for injector replacement - I'm sorry that I need to mention retuning is needed. No way you can run a higher CC injector without retuning ya.

I also mention about impedance match, sry if it is too technical bout impedance. Peak hold = low impedance. Saturated = high impedance so dats y i said must match the correct 1.

cheers

---------- Post added at 06:20 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 06:17 PM ----------

Oh ya btw our stock narrowband cannot be precise on 14.7. It only know too rich or too lean, thats y its called narrowband. wideband can be precise on 14.7

 

[mysayasan]

What i meant is.. our narrowband can only be precisely read 14.6~14.7. Other than that, the reading would not be accuracy as the wideband does. This has been done with hondata with stock sensor and hondata with PLX SM-AFR.

Please read this article about narrowband.
http://www.autometer.com/tech_faq_answer.aspx?sid=1&qid=48

Your explanation on manifold pressure is a bit confusing. Reboring the TB Inlet wont make any changes to manifold pressure.. reboring the inlet on the manifold itself following the TB outlet diameter will change the manifold pressure.

So for example at 3000rpm -0.5bar value is 200, -0.2bar value is 300

Are you talking about turbo or NA?... if you are talking about NA.. why -0.5 bar vacuum will be less fuel than -0.2 bar?.....this gonna be lean...i think you are confuse between turbo and NA.

What do you mean by impedance match?... there is nothing to be match.. if you use low impedance you must use resistor box. If using high impedance just plug and play.

 

[stingg]

Of course more vacuum uses less fuel and less vacuum uses more fuel. Let me explain how our manifold pressure works. During idle, our manifold pressure is at maximum vacuum and at WOT our manifold pressure is at 0 vacuum, 0 because its = atmospheric pressure. so a lower vacuum means it will use more fuel.

Reboring increases the diameter of yr throttle body, hence it will allow more air to be sucked into the intake manifold. Lets put this into perspective, you press your pedal 1mm, your tb butterfly will open 1 degree, a 65mm opening with 1 degree opening will flow less than a 70mm TB with 1mm opening, hence you will feel your car has more power! However it is actually the same as pressing the pedal more on a 65mm TB. So for example yr standard B16A can suck X CFM of air. if you bore yr 70mm throttle body is already flowing X CFM at 60% throttle, you will not gain anything if you press yr pedal from 60%-100% because it is already flowing as much as your engine can suck. In fact you will feel its very hard to control yr speed at low RPM now that the throttle body is more sensitive to airflow. This however is different if you decided to upgrade yr camshaft or anything that can make the engine suck more air X+200 (i'm talking suck/ not push hence it is all still in N/A discussion), Then your bored throttle body become useful because it will allow X+200 more air to be flowed at higher. My advice is you you are running type R engine with no plan to upgrade yr camshaft, then stick to type R TB and type R IM, you will have more control during part throttle.

Impedance match means exactly what you said. Match the number. Take a multimeter - put it in ohm go measure it between the 2 terminal of your injector. If example your reading is 13OHM, and the new injector is 3 ohm, get additional resistor that is 10ohm. Not just any resistor box...

---------- Post added at 10:00 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

I didnt touch the air fuel topic as it is another huge thing to explain, maybe we can talk bout it during TT session, btw I was running hondata with LC-1 wideband on my B16 and I wire and tuned it myself.

 

[mysayasan]

Mistaken about the vacuum instead of air flow. Not agree with the TB part, manifold and tb is 2 different thing. Based on what TS said, he would likely to rebore the manifold, hence overbore TB with 70mm inlet is out of the question. If TS still want to use stock manifold but with a little more respond, he could use spoon 70mm inlet TB with 64mm outlet.

Maybe we should discuss this topic deep rooted later on. FYI im using hondata s300 with PLX-SM-AFR wired and tune by myself on b16.
Currently upgrading my b16 to b20vtec.

 

[stingg]

very interesting to be able to meet the same type of person that tune and running full time wideband. I've already changed to ectune + ostrich as my hondata went kaput. I agree if TS want a little more response a rebored TB with standard manifold will work. Peak HP will be unchanged though

 

[mysayasan]

Nice to meet you too stingg, you are really a good tuner though. Seems u have many experience on engine management. Im glad that we can exchange ideas and info here. Hope we can exchange more ideas when the time comes. :)